54light15 This may be of interest as it looks like the bridges pictured in the above photo and links. It's been buried since the early 1950s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_Street_Bridge There was some subsidence a few years ago and someone looked in the hole and said, "There's a bridge down here!" and it got in the papers. People had forgotten about it. It's just south of Dundas Street.
This may be of interest as it looks like the bridges pictured in the above photo and links. It's been buried since the early 1950s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_Street_Bridge
There was some subsidence a few years ago and someone looked in the hole and said, "There's a bridge down here!" and it got in the papers. People had forgotten about it. It's just south of Dundas Street.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding 54light15 This may be of interest as it looks like the bridges pictured in the above photo and links. It's been buried since the early 1950s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_Street_Bridge There was some subsidence a few years ago and someone looked in the hole and said, "There's a bridge down here!" and it got in the papers. People had forgotten about it. It's just south of Dundas Street. Here's a quote from the linked article that made me laugh. I'm envisioning an episode of This is your life! " once spanned over Garrison Creek valley (the actual creek disappeared as brick sewer in 1885". It looks like a pretty good sized bridge to be replace by simply making the creek into a brick sewer.
Here's a quote from the linked article that made me laugh. I'm envisioning an episode of This is your life! " once spanned over Garrison Creek valley (the actual creek disappeared as brick sewer in 1885". It looks like a pretty good sized bridge to be replace by simply making the creek into a brick sewer.
The Western Maryland did a similar thing with its crossing of Gwynns Falls - a stream in Owings Mills, MD. Made a fill out of a bridge over the stream and installed a culvert to handle the water. All was good until Hurricane Agnes in June of 1972 - water backed up behind the fill to the point that it totally washed out the fill which then swept across Reisterstown Road - sweeping away a mother and daughter in the car operating on the road (I believe they were found 8 or 9 months later somewhere along the Chesapeake Bay.
After Agnes the right of way was rebuilt with a bridge spanning the stream.
Underestimating the flow of streams that get hidden in culverts or other underground means of carrying the water creates catastrophic issues when the 1000 year storm happens twice in three years - Think Ellicott City, MD.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tree68If you look carefully at Starrucca Viaduct, you'll note the stones sticking out from the supporting columns. I'm pretty sure they were there to support the falsework needed to build the arches. I remember when that dawned on me - I was rather impressed at the ingenuity. I'm sure the technique predates that viaduct, though.
When my wife & I took a trip to France about 15 years ago, we included a stop in Arles Fr and I spent a day driving in the country and we saw the Pont de Gard Roman Aqueduct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pont_du_Gard
It was built in the period of 40–60 AD to supply water to Nîmes. It has projecting bricks or stones to support scaffolding during construction.
So YES, Larry, the concept goes back a long way.
Electroliner 1935So YES, Larry, the concept goes back a long way.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The BNSF line past our lumberyard must have a slow order just north of us. The trains come through now at what looks like a brisk, walking pace. I happened to be out back yesterday and time a unit grain train going by in just under 5 minutes. I wondered if there have been any major derailments of a train moving over a slow order spot of track. My guess would be no, I'd think whoever is making that decision is going to err on the side of safety. Would an engineer be more or less likely to feel a train on the ground at lower speeds?
If PTC can tell you that you are going too fast, is it also made to have slow orders programmed in? "Hey bubb! Ease back a bit, there's a slow order just around the bend."
Norris, a good engineer can feel a derailment at very low speeds. We had an engineer who felt--accurately--a derailment on a hump shove, which wasn't moving faster than a walk.Another engineer was coupling a track in the yard to pull back over the hump. "I think we've got something on the ground here." He was instructed to pull them back anyway. It took a bit of power, but he was able to yank them out. That was one track--and part of a lead--that couldn't be used for a while!
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR Norris, a good engineer can feel a derailment at very low speeds. We had an engineer who felt--accurately--a derailment on a hump shove, which wasn't moving faster than a walk.Another engineer was coupling a track in the yard to pull back over the hump. "I think we've got something on the ground here." He was instructed to pull them back anyway. It took a bit of power, but he was able to yank them out. That was one track--and part of a lead--that couldn't be used for a while!
Johnny
Murphy Siding If PTC can tell you that you are going too fast, is it also made to have slow orders programmed in? "Hey bubb! Ease back a bit, there's a slow order just around the bend."
Yes, the PTC has the temporary restrictions programmed into it. The system is updated everytime the dispatcher updates the computer. We get paper bulletins issued and compare them to PTC. On those specific slows that get upgraded after so many tons have passed over them, it's not unusual to have PTC show a higher speed than what the paperwork shows.
Until the dispatcher issues the changes to us, we have to follow the slower speed listed in the paperwork.
Jeff
That, in a word, is what PTC is all about. Such changes appear on the PTC screen well ahead of the restriction, no matter what it is.
Murphy Siding . . . Would an engineer be more or less likely to feel a train on the ground at lower speeds?
- PDN.
jeffhergert Murphy Siding If PTC can tell you that you are going too fast, is it also made to have slow orders programmed in? "Hey bubb! Ease back a bit, there's a slow order just around the bend." Yes, the PTC has the temporary restrictions programmed into it. The system is updated everytime the dispatcher updates the computer. We get paper bulletins issued and compare them to PTC. On those specific slows that get upgraded after so many tons have passed over them, it's not unusual to have PTC show a higher speed than what the paperwork shows. Until the dispatcher issues the changes to us, we have to follow the slower speed listed in the paperwork. Jeff
Murphy SidingAm I reading this right? There could be a slow ordered track where the train speed could be increased after part of the train has passed over it?
See the discussion about trestles being filled in.
When track has been repaired or modified, it has to be 'settled in' to pack everything, As the weight and vibration of the train can be highly effective in accomplishing this ... but the track geometry still variable until it has been substantially achieved ... it is not unusual for there to be a slow order until xxx tons have passed over the repair or whatever to compact it.
One can easily understand why this is a 'statutory' number and not some science-based index resulting from periodic track measurements; one can also understand why a continuous train control that is tracking the number of tons might be programmed to (1) cancel the slow order the moment the critical "ton" passes over, and (2) communicates the lifting directly to the train crew so they can resume normal PSR speed.
Overmod Murphy Siding Am I reading this right? There could be a slow ordered track where the train speed could be increased after part of the train has passed over it? See the discussion about trestles being filled in. When track has been repaired or modified, it has to be 'settled in' to pack everything, As the weight and vibration of the train can be highly effective in accomplishing this ... but the track geometry still variable until it has been substantially achieved ... it is not unusual for there to be a slow order until xxx tons have passed over the repair or whatever to compact it. One can easily understand why this is a 'statutory' number and not some science-based index resulting from periodic track measurements; one can also understand why a continuous train control that is tracking the number of tons might be programmed to (1) cancel the slow order the moment the critical "ton" passes over, and (2) communicates the lifting directly to the train crew so they can resume normal PSR speed.
Murphy Siding Am I reading this right? There could be a slow ordered track where the train speed could be increased after part of the train has passed over it?
Murphy SidingAm I reading this right? There could be a slow ordered track where the train speed could be increased after part of the train has passed over it? So….. after the first half of the dynamite train passes over the meteorite crater, the train can accelerate back up to track speed.
So….. after the first half of the dynamite train passes over the meteorite crater, the train can accelerate back up to track speed.
The only place I have seen that type of speed restriction is in TTSI wherein certain highway road crossings have a specified speed restrictions for 'head end only'. The restriction is interperted as, for example, 10 MPH for the head end over XYZ Street and then the train can accelerate to track speed, even though the balance of the train is still passing over XYZ Street.
Normal speed restrictions apply to the ENTIRE TRAIN passing over the area specified in the restriction.
I watched a crew pull an empty lumber car out of our yard today. The conductor on the ground directed the engineer in until the engine coupled with the car. He then had the engineer back up to take out the slack before connecting hoses. Why the back up? The conductor also walked to the other end of the car and appeared to do something with the end of the brake hose. He also did something that held the hose up so it wouldn't drag on the ground. (I watched from a couple hundred feet back, as I know I don't care for people watching me while I work.)
Murphy Siding I watched a crew pull an empty lumber car out of our yard today. The conductor on the ground directed the engineer in until the engine coupled with the car. He then had the engineer back up to take out the slack before connecting hoses. Why the back up? The conductor also walked to the other end of the car and appeared to do something with the end of the brake hose. He also did something that held the hose up so it wouldn't drag on the ground. (I watched from a couple hundred feet back, as I know I don't care for people watching me while I work.)
If he was stretching, it's just to make sure that the hitch was good. We do it all the time - better safe than sorry when you've got a trainload of passengers. Sometimes the pin doesn't drop all the way.
Glad hands aren't indestructable. We generally make sure they won't be dragging.
As for being watched - that's every day on a tourist railroad.
Yes these locations are 'disturbed' track locations. Places where work, such as changing out ties, has been done. Generally, ours are 15mph for so many tons, than 30mph, then 45mph, then 60mph, then removed. (Using an example where max speed is 70mph.) Every increase is after x amount of tons.
Now, the dispatcher's computer must keep track of how many tons have passed over the spot. It will upgrade to the next higher speed after calculating the magic number has been reached. What happens is it's communicated to PTC, which updates the slows in the engine's on-board computer. When this happens we ask the dispatcher if the speed has been raised. Sometimes the answer is no, our train needs to fully pass over the spot before it's effective. PTC/CAD justs jumps the gun on raising the speed.
Likewise, a track foreman who's standing at the spot can't raise the speed to the train if the restriction was issued by the dispatcher. I've had a dispatcher issue is a 10mph slow because a previous train reported rough track. The track foreman arrives and watches us enter the restricted spot. He wants to see how the train rides at 25mph and asks us to increase speed. Unless the dispatcher says to be governed by the employee in charge, the speed issued by the dispatcher has to be followed. Had the track foreman issued the original restriction, he could authorize a higher speed.
As to stretching after coupling, I have noticed it when private cars were added to Amtrak #5 in Denver. I was not on the ground, watching, but I could tell what was being done--and it seemed that whoever was doing the coupling was having trouble really coupling, what with three or four back and forth moves. I noticed this on more than one trip.
jeffhergert Overmod Murphy Siding Am I reading this right? There could be a slow ordered track where the train speed could be increased after part of the train has passed over it? See the discussion about trestles being filled in. When track has been repaired or modified, it has to be 'settled in' to pack everything, As the weight and vibration of the train can be highly effective in accomplishing this ... but the track geometry still variable until it has been substantially achieved ... it is not unusual for there to be a slow order until xxx tons have passed over the repair or whatever to compact it. One can easily understand why this is a 'statutory' number and not some science-based index resulting from periodic track measurements; one can also understand why a continuous train control that is tracking the number of tons might be programmed to (1) cancel the slow order the moment the critical "ton" passes over, and (2) communicates the lifting directly to the train crew so they can resume normal PSR speed. Yes these locations are 'disturbed' track locations. Places where work, such as changing out ties, has been done. Generally, ours are 15mph for so many tons, than 30mph, then 45mph, then 60mph, then removed. (Using an example where max speed is 70mph.) Every increase is after x amount of tons. Now, the dispatcher's computer must keep track of how many tons have passed over the spot. It will upgrade to the next higher speed after calculating the magic number has been reached. What happens is it's communicated to PTC, which updates the slows in the engine's on-board computer. When this happens we ask the dispatcher if the speed has been raised. Sometimes the answer is no, our train needs to fully pass over the spot before it's effective. PTC/CAD justs jumps the gun on raising the speed. Likewise, a track foreman who's standing at the spot can't raise the speed to the train if the restriction was issued by the dispatcher. I've had a dispatcher issue is a 10mph slow because a previous train reported rough track. The track foreman arrives and watches us enter the restricted spot. He wants to see how the train rides at 25mph and asks us to increase speed. Unless the dispatcher says to be governed by the employee in charge, the speed issued by the dispatcher has to be followed. Had the track foreman issued the original restriction, he could authorize a higher speed. Jeff
As of the time of my retirement, CADS was not equipped with any form of automatic upgrade to speed restrictions implemented account of disturbed track conditions following track work. MofW issues and up grades the restrictions based on their keeping data on the trains that are operated over those track segments, data they obtain in conversation with the Train Dispatcher. On CSX, passenger trains did not count in the tonnage calculations, whenever possible, passenger trains would be operated around disturbed track segments in efforts to minimize delays to them. Qualified MofW personnel will inspect the track after the passage after the passage of the required amount of tonnage and if warranted will raise the speed of the restriction to the next level of the cascade. Raising the speed of the restriction is not a automatic function - each upgrade to any speed restriction must be a result of inspection by a qualified inspector.
The 'Filling in a trestle' thread has discussions about soil compaction. The cascade of slow orders when operating over distrubed track is a strategy to provide 'compaction' to the recently uncompacted track structure. Disturbed track structure - from the subgrade to the top of the rail is somewhat akin to having constructed something on top ball bearings - everything has movement potential in its relation to its neighbor. The running of tonnage trains act as a vibrator to ease all the elements of the track structure into stable, lasting relations with its neighbor. The vibratory effects of increasing amounts of tonnage stabilize the track structure for increasingly higher speeds.
Insights from a incident in 2002
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RAB0405.pdf
BaltACDDisturbed track structure - from the subgrade to the top of the rail is somewhat akin to having constructed something on top ball bearings - everything has movement potential in its relation to its neighbor. The running of tonnage trains act as a vibrator to ease all the elements of the track structure into stable, lasting relations with its neighbor. The vibratory effects of increasing amounts of tonnage stabilize the track structure for increasingly higher speeds.
To make what Balt is saying a bit clearer: Both vibration and vertical compression are important in achieving compaction. The situation is a little different from concrete vibratory compaction where weight is less critical in achieving the desired effect (as you have a semiliquid that subsequently chemically sets up).
One approach that was tried for subgrade is so-called roller-compacted concrete (RCC) which is like a very harsh aggregate mixture that gains its strength more from rolled compression rather than vibratory screeding or whatever, and (perhaps more importantly) is 'self-healing' when it is displaced or moved in place. In railroad applications you DO provide further vibratory compression of this material, but that is done far more effectively with multiple passing trains than at the time of placement.
(Incidentally a layer of asphalt over this sort of RCC turned out to be the 'best use of asphalt in railroad construction' that was a contest in the mid-Seventies ... it keeps any 'draining' water preferentially out of the subgrade, but you have to be VERY careful to keep it from reaching its softening temperature ... or you'll start to get the mother of all sun kinking.)
I have to wonder whether the relatively recent vast improvement in some heavy unit-train running (I routinely see loaded coal trains at 40mph that are barely perceptible in terms of running shock or noise) makes the process of compaction slower or less reliably certain. The weight is certainly there.
Stretching is required by the rulebook. Failure to do so each and every time can result in a failed efficiency test, discipline, or dismissal. I think that particular rule is overkill, as one can easily see whether or not the pins have dropped. I have never seen a joint turn out to be bad after seeing both pins drop, but I have seen a number of joints pass the stretch test, only to fail later on because the pin did not drop completely. That situation has led to at least three derailments that were investigated by our TSB, including the fatal runaway that shut down the Englewood Railway (North America's last logger).
An air hose or anything else hanging down below rail height will set off dragging equipment detectors.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
The trick is to hit them hard enough so they stretch themselves.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
CN's rules specifically prohibit the "gravity stretch". So you have to go through the motions on the radio anyway.
A few years ago we got a bulletin with instructions on how to visually tell whether or not the pins have dropped, but a powered stretch is still required.
SD70DudeCN's rules specifically prohibit the "gravity stretch". So you have to go through the motions on the radio anyway.
Not really a gravity stretch. It's a powered stretch.
zugmann The trick is to hit them hard enough so they stretch themselves.
I've had a couple of engineers like that...
I had one engineer who was very proud of his "light touch" hitch once (occupied passenger cars during a run-around). Until I told him to go back out and try it again...
BaltACD A knuckle is a terrible thing to break
A knuckle is a terrible thing to break
So, does anybody know what ultimately was done to clean this up? My intuition tells me they would have selected the option that reopened the line the quickest, which I suspect involved cutting it up.
SD70Dude CN's rules specifically prohibit the "gravity stretch". So you have to go through the motions on the radio anyway. A few years ago we got a bulletin with instructions on how to visually tell whether or not the pins have dropped, but a powered stretch is still required.
Yeah, we're required to also stretch the joint. Even when it can plainly be seen that the joint made because of the slack action sometimes involved.
The other day we had to make a rear end pickup on a 9000 ft train. When stretching the joint we came apart close to the rear of our existing train (before the pickup) because of a faulty pin lifter lever. A car man was called and repaired it. Once ready to recouple, the utility brakeman working with us said to 'pin back' 15 feet to a joint. I started moving back. The engines had moved a couple of cars when he finally said all moving - 15 ft to a hook.
SD70DudeCN used to unload the rail by anchoring it to a second locomotive behind the rail train, and then having the lead locomotive pull the train ahead slowly. That practice ended after a string got away and smashed into the rear locomotive's cab, killing the Engineer.
Lithonia Operator SD70Dude CN used to unload the rail by anchoring it to a second locomotive behind the rail train, and then having the lead locomotive pull the train ahead slowly. That practice ended after a string got away and smashed into the rear locomotive's cab, killing the Engineer. I'm having trouble envisioning this. What would cause a string to move back towards the "anchor" locomotive? Some kind of stretch-then-recoil force?
SD70Dude CN used to unload the rail by anchoring it to a second locomotive behind the rail train, and then having the lead locomotive pull the train ahead slowly. That practice ended after a string got away and smashed into the rear locomotive's cab, killing the Engineer.
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