What would it take for us to have a thread about trains that not once mentions that of which we are tired of hearing? Those that can post pics of something, please do. Those of us that can't, will have to be content with asking dumb questions. For example, the buffer car between ethanol cars and locomotives- does it have to be a certain kind of car like a boxcar or covered hopper? Could it be an old caboose, for example? ****note: I changed the thread title 5-13-20 2:17 pm****
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The caboose would have to be disinfected first. (Sorry, just couldn't brake early enough to not pass the signal).
GrampThe caboose would have to be disinfected first. (Sorry, just couldn't brake early enough to not pass the signal).
(Sorry, just couldn't brake early enough to not pass the signal).
Class 1's don't have any cabooses! Nothing to disenfect.
To my knowledge there is no specific requirement for the buffer car(s). From a train handling view point the car(s) should be loaded. From a revenue view point, the carrier 'creating' the buffer car(s) will use cars that are young enough to be used in Interchange Service, but of such a nature that the owner is not using them in revenue service.
Flatland operators with only head end power can get away with only using a buffer next to the head end power. If DPU or manned helpers are used the must be separated from the HAZMAT by a buffer.
From my experience the buffer car(s) used for both ethanol and oil trains are covered hoppers that have been loaded with sand.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I'm with you Murph!
Wanna go for a ride on the "A" train?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb2w2m1JmCY
But with the title of the thread having the subject to not talk about it like telling someone to not think of elephants... that will be all that they think about trying not to think about them.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Semper Vaporo But with the title of the thread having the subject to not talk about it like telling someone to not think of elephants... that will be all that they think about trying not to think about them.
Murphy Siding Semper Vaporo But with the title of the thread having the subject to not talk about it like telling someone to not think of elephants... that will be all that they think about trying not to think about them. So, I guess you should try to think about elephants on a train? Come to think of it, that beats thinking about snakes on a plane.
So, I guess you should try to think about elephants on a train? Come to think of it, that beats thinking about snakes on a plane.
Ringling Bros. stopped operating the Circus Train several years ago - so there are no longer any elephants on the train.
BaltACD Gramp The caboose would have to be disinfected first. (Sorry, just couldn't brake early enough to not pass the signal). To my knowledge there is no specific requirement for the buffer car(s). From a train handling view point the car(s) should be loaded. From a revenue view point, the carrier 'creating' the buffer car(s) will use cars that are young enough to be used in Interchange Service, but of such a nature that the owner is not using them in revenue service. Flatland operators with only head end power can get away with only using a buffer next to the head end power. If DPU or manned helpers are used the must be separated from the HAZMAT by a buffer. From my experience the buffer car(s) used for both ethanol and oil trains are covered hoppers that have been loaded with sand.
Gramp The caboose would have to be disinfected first. (Sorry, just couldn't brake early enough to not pass the signal).
Does not a locomotive being moved 'Dead in Tow' also class as a buffer? I've noticed that on occasion there have been tank cars moving in the 1st car position behind the head end power.. no way to determine if the power is dead or active...Sometimes with 2 units on the head you make the guess that the power is 'on' 'unoccupied'; no way to tell?
'Wipes' are probably optional for the train crews
Here a song pick: "Take the night train to Memphis'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsuVKhGnhiE
and for the 'miss a caboose crowd":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l442OKA9rw
samfp1943 BaltACD Gramp The caboose would have to be disinfected first. (Sorry, just couldn't brake early enough to not pass the signal). To my knowledge there is no specific requirement for the buffer car(s). From a train handling view point the car(s) should be loaded. From a revenue view point, the carrier 'creating' the buffer car(s) will use cars that are young enough to be used in Interchange Service, but of such a nature that the owner is not using them in revenue service. Flatland operators with only head end power can get away with only using a buffer next to the head end power. If DPU or manned helpers are used the must be separated from the HAZMAT by a buffer. From my experience the buffer car(s) used for both ethanol and oil trains are covered hoppers that have been loaded with sand. Does not a locomotive being moved 'Dead in Tow' also class as a buffer? I've noticed that on occasion there have been tank cars moving in the 1st car position behind the head end power.. no way to determine if the power is dead or active...Sometimes with 2 units on the head you make the guess that the power is 'on' 'unoccupied'; no way to tell?
Locomotives in the engine consist do not constitute a buffer car. Not all commodities carried in tank cars are HAZMAT. You have to look for the Placard. No placard in the placard holder - the car does not contain HAZMAT. Tank cars that haul HAZMAT are required to have placards - both loaded and empty.
BaltACDClass 1's don't have any cabooses! Nothing to disenfect.
So why do we have cabooses in my yard?
We have more restrictive rules for buffers for unit trains. In addition to the FRA requirements, buffer cars must weigh more than 45 tons, be over 41 feet long, but not longer than 70.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Murphy Siding Those that can post pics of something, please do.
Perhaps this might be a good time to renew our discussion of which Class-1s do the best jobs of maintaining their infrastructure?
zugmann BaltACD Class 1's don't have any cabooses! Nothing to disenfect. So why do we have cabooses in my yard?
BaltACD Class 1's don't have any cabooses! Nothing to disenfect.
Do the 'cabooses' in your yard have all the required equipment in operating condition that are necessary for them to qualify as a caboose rather than a 'shoving platform' where all that required equipment have been removed from the cars.
BaltACDDo the 'cabooses' in your yard have all the required equipment in operating condition that are necessary for them to qualify as a caboose rather than a 'shoving platform' where all that required equipment have been removed from the cars.
I'm pretty sure they're still classified as cabooses in the system.
I don't know if they fit the contractual definition - if there's even a contractual definition in existence anymore. Lot of that stuff has been tossed over the years.
zugmann BaltACD Do the 'cabooses' in your yard have all the required equipment in operating condition that are necessary for them to qualify as a caboose rather than a 'shoving platform' where all that required equipment have been removed from the cars. I'm pretty sure they're still classified as cabooses in the system. I don't know if they fit the contractual definition - if there's even a contractual definition in existence anymore. Lot of that stuff has been tossed over the years.
BaltACD Do the 'cabooses' in your yard have all the required equipment in operating condition that are necessary for them to qualify as a caboose rather than a 'shoving platform' where all that required equipment have been removed from the cars.
Do Conductors on NS get paid a Arbitrary for the times they 'operate without a caboose'?
At one time there was such a Arbitrary - to my knowledge that was negotiated away with the two man crew contracts that did away with the operation of genuine cabooses.
Convicted One Murphy Siding Those that can post pics of something, please do. Perhaps this might be a good time to renew our discussion of which Class-1s do the best jobs of maintaining their infrastructure?
Well, this might be a good spot to share my experiences from yesterday: the "elephant" is mentioned from time to time, but for the most part it stayed out of the way.
This is yesterday's Facebook post, almost in full:
It's time to explain our silence so far today.
We've been busy! It's our 47th wedding anniversary!
It began fairly normally, with the exchange of cards, followed by our usual breakfast. Then we prepared and mailed packages at the post office.
Then off to Indiana! This was my idea, in hopes that we could take advantage of a little more open environment. As it turned out, that wasn't possible, or necessary.
Everyone who knows me knows why I like to go to the armpit of northwestern Indiana (no city singled out here...many could qualify!). It's because, in spite of all you read about Chicago being the railroad center of the country, the action is in Porter and Lake Counties of Indiana, and extending westward through the area SOUTH of Chicago. So I was looking forward to seeing action on the railroads that don't come to the western suburbs of Chicago.
Poor Pat, right? And on our anniversary, too...
Well, I asked her what she would like out of a trip like this. Her answer: she wanted to get food from Great Lakes Cafe, and she wanted to help me enjoy myself. If she'd wanted for any wee thing, she surely could have it, because she...But we didn't need to shop anywhere except at a hardware store (which we did, to her complete satisfaction...more on that later).
So, we went quickly into Indiana, and instead of getting off the highway where we usually do, I went north on Kennedy Avenue, past the headquarters building of the Indiana Harbor Belt Railroad. One of their lines parallels the road north of there, and there was a freight train sitting there. Lots of good information, which I gathered in two passes. After the second pass, we went past the old roundhouse (Pat hasn't seen too many actual roundhouses), and I tried to get close to some new Potash Corporation covered hoppers I'd seen in the distance. I settled for binocular confirmation of a number, and data supplied by one of my fellow freight-car freaks. He gets to claim the 300 new cars, which he's done already.
Then back to my usual route to the Great Lakes Cafe, where we surprised the owner (and her husband) by showing up. He thought we were going to rob the place, since we were masked. We went in and ordered, and the first thing the boss said was what a cute couple we made (we were coordinated in plaid flannel shirts). We bought a good meal (have we ever gotten anything else from there? I don't think so!), and when we went back to our car, it was surrounded by a half-dozen police cars, including a K9 unit! No, we'd done nothing wrong...they just know the best place in town to get breakfast or lunch!
On the way out of the place, we caught most of an eastbound CSX manifest train, and I gathered more data off him. Then we went east into the Miller section of Gary (used to be a separate city). We'd asked Cindy where her daughter lived (daughter and granddaughter haven't been working at the restaurant lately), so we thought we'd liven up their stay at home a bit. We didn't find their house right away, so we went east to Chesterton before trying again. On the way in, I saw my first-ever CSX freight train on the Porter Branch (they took that branch over from Conrail in 1999...yes, it's been that long since I've seen anything there).
At Chesterton, we got gas for $1.989. It really has been going up, and April 23 was the last time we'd gotten any gas at all (in Illinois, for about 15c less...they'd be well over two bucks by now). We also did some banking at the Chesterton branch of our bank (lobby was closed, but the drive-through was able to handle our fairly complex transfer request). While we were there we kept hearing train horns, and saw a westbound manifest on the CSX line from Grand Rapids (also rare these days!). Then, when we circled back to the main road and stopped at the park, a Norfolk Southern train--another manifest!--headed west.
Going back west along U.S. 12, I gathered data from the diagonal-steel cars I saw at Burns Harbor along the highway (the steel plates are too wide to be handled horizontally, and too tall to be handled vertically, so they have these supports built into the gondolas to help the loads fit within the clearance diagram).
We then went back into Miller, toward Marquette Park and Lake Michigan, finally locating (with the help of the phone) the home of Jessica and her family. As luck would have it, she and Gloria were out in the driveway, armed with chalk. We had a nice chat, and all exchanged air high-fives. They have a neat old house, only blocks away from a private beach on Lake Michigan.
Leaving there, we went back to U.S. 12. As we crossed over the CSX main line (former B&O), we saw the headlight of another CSX westbound, and it was another manifest. Pat couldn't believe my luck so far--nothing but mixed freight trains; no monotonous (to me) stack trains or other unit trains. She found me a spot where I could get up to a low trackside fence and see the car numbers over the fence.
As we returned to the highway, a South Shore passenger train was just departing the Miller station. We made it uneventfully through the rest of Gary, past the airport, and hit pay dirt near the western edge of the city--a CN manifest headed slowly into their yard. Pat quickly steered me into a road that went up to the tracks again and offered an unobstructed view. By the time the hind end passed us, he had slowed to a crawl, and I was still writing furiously.
Oh...the CSX tracks parallel CN's at this point, and while I was watching the CN train, an eastbound CSX stack train went by. With the CN train in my way, I couldn't have documented this stack train if I'd wanted to.
Just a side note...the eastern railroads were a lot slower to embrace distributed power than were the major western railroads, but every freight train I saw today had a DPU in the middle of the train (that includes the stack train). Surprisingly to me, the DP unit on the CN train was a BNSF locomotive.
At this point, Pat asked if I'd had enough yet...of course I hadn't. But she was anxious to get back home, so I decided to head south, without continuing my trip through the usual locations of East Chicago, Hammond, State Line, Hegewisch, Burnham, Dolton Junction, Riverdale, and Blue Island (all of which have potential for me, but none of which ever have guarantees). I'd also skipped over Pine Junction, which could well be the hottest of the hot spots around here. But Pat counted...I have 13 pages of notes from the trains and cars I did see! It might not be a record for me, but I think it was for a trip where she was along.
Before we went home, we stopped at our local hardware store, where Pat purchased several bolts to be ready when another one of the drawer one of the drawer handles strips the bolt that holds the knob...she wanted for those wee things, so she surely should have them! We took them home, and her fix works fine (might need a washer or two to compensate for the added length, but that knob will go nowhere!).
So I wrote about our anniversary, and she'll be happy to talk about it...it was the perfect day to go out into the world, and nobody caught the virus from us, due to our precautions. If I complain about my research workload in the next week or so, please remind me of what a happy camper I was to catch all of this today!
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Wow! Carl, you and Pat had a great day!
As to roundhouses, I have been in one--the Burlington roundhouse in Aurora. On one of my trips to visit family in the South, I spent a night with my nephew and his wife who lived in Bolingbrook (both are now gone; Sue died five years ago and Frank died last year), and they took me out to Aurora to see the deserted roundhouse.
Johnny
Another dumb question from an enquiring mind- I’ve read about TOFC and the issue of how to load and unload them quicker. Would it be feasible to run a track dropped below the level of a parking lot so that the top of the flat car carrying the TOFC would be at the same level as the parking lot? The first trailer would be a little tricky to unload but after that, backing in and hooking up a short wheelbase truck would be easy for any good truck driver.
Murphy Siding Another dumb question from an enquiring mind- I’ve read about TOFC and the issue of how to load and unload them quicker. Would it be feasible to run a track dropped below the level of a parking lot so that the top of the flat car carrying the TOFC would be at the same level as the parking lot? The first trailer would be a little tricky to unload but after that, backing in and hooking up a short wheelbase truck would be easy for any good truck driver.
You still need to deal with the gaps between cars. Even fold-down ramps (which used to be fairly common on TOFC flats) leave some gap. And there will always be a gap between the flatcar's edge and the loading dock, to allow for some oscilation while the rail equipment is moving.
I would favour a modified Lohr system for easy loading/unloading instead. I would add fold-down ramps and make the turning platforms pneumatically operated, with a backup hand crank in case the air motor failed (I'm not sure how they are powered now, I assumed it is some sort of hydraulic or electric system). This way the car could be loaded or unloaded anywhere, and either the train or truck's brake air supply could be used to power it.
The cars would be more expensive than standard TOFC flats, but terminal costs would be minimal. And no need for specialized trailers as in the Flexi-Van system, or extra strong (and heavy) trailers like Roadrailers or current TOFC-capable units.
https://lohr.fr/lohr-railway-system/
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Our contracts still have lots of outdated, by now practically irrelevant stuff.
The CTY contract (Conductors, Trainmen, Yardmen) still has two entire pages on cabooses, including what a pool/through operation one must be supplied with. It must have a hot plate, a insulated water container (with a spigot), a tea kettle, a coffee pot, a small saucepan, a frying pan (cast iron), three plates (non-metal), three cereal bowls (non-metal), three each knives, forks, teaspoons, tablespoons, one paring knife, one can opener, one dish pan, one dish mop, two blankets, and sufficient paper towels, laundry soap, and toilet soap.
The only cars we can be compelled to handle behind the caboose are flangers and official cars.
There are six pages on pay rates for passenger and mixed train crews. Baggage handlers get paid extra if they are required to handle Express or Her Majesty's Mail.
The Company is also still allowed to pick specific employees to run special passenger trains.
Engineers get paid an extra $1.00 for each steam generator equipped locomotive or car in their train.
Two Engineers are supposed to be called for an auxiliary train (wreck cleanup) if no Firemen are available.
This post could go on all day.....
Murphy SidingWould it be feasible to run a track dropped below the level of a parking lot so that the top of the flat car carrying the TOFC would be at the same level as the parking lot?
That actually is a lot smarter than 'conventional wisdom' makes it out to be, especially if you have HPIT-like continuous-running-surface cars. The trick is to abandon the idea that circus-type loading and unloading are required or that specialized weird procedures like those for Flexi-Vans are needed, with special yard tractors run by specialized pilots.
Unloading can be handled by backing on at near right angle and leaving just enough room between parked trailers to angle them off; this is actually facilitated in gang unloading. The thing that has been added with 'autonomous' technology is the truck equivalent of parking assist: it is a cinch to back right to the kingpin engage in one pass and have the front wheels aligned for the subsequent pull.
Tight loading is a little less intuitive, but it involves the 'loading' tractors lined up, prestaged, on the opposite side; as trailers leave, the opposing combination pulls up 'across' the line of the train, momentarily drops and repositions the tractor as needed at near right angle, and uses differential braking on the trailer bogie wheels (installed to permit combination backing with terminal guidance) to swing the nose precisely in. Again, this would be Olympic-level coaching skill for drivers ... but easily provided in an intelligent vehicle. Note that there are no gaps, no fixed rails, no scuffable sidewalls, no Kangorou-style duals with running-rail surfaces ... and more to the point, no turntables, lifts, straddles, or other equipment trying to lift unreinforced vans off their implicit support points at kingpin and bogie attachment. (There are implicit benefits in being able to run an adjustable bogie back and forth a bit with power, but those will suggest themselves to you with a little reflection ... as will returning to load-cell or predetermined road balance when not loading or departing.)
You'll probably still want a 'fence' of some kind at the edge of the loading gage, so that bouncing tires don't put a trailer corner out far enough to start whacking against something. This may benefit from horizontal adjustment when folded up -- again, various solutions will suggest themselves.
In the near term, of course, specialized yard equipment would place and pick the vans -- using a hydraulic fifth wheel in typical fashion to get around dicking with the landing gear, and moving to an area where tractors can back on easily ... which might be only a few feet from the line of the track if swung back near-parallel after clearing the equipment.
SD70DudeI would favour a modified Lohr system for easy loading/unloading instead.
Lohr is a nifty idea, but it involves a potload of expensive moving parts to get the job done, and there is still some alignment issue with getting the trailers into and out of the pockets or wells. Note that there were systems that did something very similar for kangaroo pockets on the 'outside' of spine flats like Fuel Foilers in the '70s, once you got around the issues with powering the bogie lifts semi-automatically (I proposed air-over-hydraulic with electric 'shore' option back in the day)
You may note that Lohr was an alternative for a service like Expressway, but they used modified decked cars instead. That may show that when the actual numbers were run the advantages of the Lohr approach were less certain, or the consequences of difficulties harder to address.
In my opinion Lohr could, and in a sense still can, provide a bridge service under the Hudson in off-peak slots -- now much fewer than they used to be but still present in late-night and early-morning hours -- to some dedicated transfer and 'inland port' facility, perhaps at that yard in the Queens area that FedEx was investigating for emergency-response equipment.
Overmod You may note that Lohr was an alternative for a service like Expressway, but they used modified decked cars instead. That may show that when the actual numbers were run the advantages of the Lohr approach were less certain, or the consequences of difficulties harder to address.
It looks like the first Lohr operation in Europe started in 2003, wheras NYAB's Iron Highway was developed in the 1980s and was actively promoted to North American railroads.
CP started using the Iron Highway equipment in 1996. Did the Lohr equipment exist at that time, or was it still on the drawing board? Has there ever been any effort to promote it in North America? (not that the Class I's would listen right now). I would think it could be fairly easily modified to use the North American air brake system, but could other regulatory hurdles and certifications get in the way?
I'll concede that the Lohr equipment is more expensive, complex and most likely heavier than standard TOFC or Iron Highway flats. And the version currently in use in Europe requires unloading facilities similar to what Murphy described.
The modified version I am contemplating would require only a flat, level area beside the track, and though the fold-down ramps would add some extra weight to an already heavy car (by flatcar standards) I don't think that is a big issue on North American rail lines.
It works! I thought about elephants. Wow, I don't see any epephants anymore. ((Not that I've seen any lately.)
CShaveRRWe've been busy! It's our 47th wedding anniversary!
Congratulations Carl, you are one lucky man to have a wife that "allows" (ha) you to persue your hobbies and enjoys going with you. Of course Pat is lucky to have a husband that considers her when he takes her out on his trips. Like you, I have such a marrage and I have you beat with 60 years together. It is great to have a good mate.
Sound like a great and rewarding day.
BaltACD From my experience the buffer car(s) used for both ethanol and oil trains are covered hoppers that have been loaded with sand.
I saw a northbound BNSF oil train just north of Temple, TX today. The buffer car was an old box car. The logo was the original Burlington Northern Santa Fe. I don't know whether the car was loaded. The power - three locomotives - was on the front.
I suspect the train was headed to the Bakken Oil fields. Given the glut of oil that has hit the Gulf Coast refineries, I wondered how long it will be before the cars are loaded and head south again?
Johnny, that abandoned roundhouse in Aurora is now quite the gathering place, with restaurants and pubs. Pat and I had a good meal there once. And will again, someday!
Murphy Sidingf I were a betting man, I'd wager your picture is of a rusty CSX bridge in the KY, WV, or PA area?
Here is another example of CSX prowess:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1176988,-85.5689422,3a,75y,19.54h,85.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQS1OvFwAPZR-5zmzCZPgCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
The "Daleville" bridge over I-69 just west of Muncie.
Notice how well painted the adjacent roadway bridge over the interstate is, and in fact all roadway overpasses for 50 miles in either direction are well painted/maintained.
This is a highly active line, being the former NYC main to Saint Louis. So the neglect is not due to abandonment.
Electroliner 1935Congratulations Carl, you are one lucky man to have a wife that "allows" (ha) you to persue your hobbies and enjoys going with you.
But I've met them both (got them a cab ride, no less) and visited with them several years ago when I extended my trip to the midwest to include Rochelle. Personalized tour on the way back into town, and dinner at one of their favorite restaurants.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Speaking of "pictures", what do you suppose they haul in this beast, all disguised under the cover of public safety?
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