The rail unloading machines are a recent (last 10 years) creation. I'm still surprised they have any capability to move a loaded rail train. There are quite a few unemployed power threaders and rail unloading sets (3-car) hanging around Pueblo [Baxter] looking for work.
Most rail trains have two tie-down cars and only one is used (the other is for mini-rail train use and unusual circumstances). "Cages" on the end cars will set off strobe lights to stop the train if touched by a loose rail that normally would clear the cage doors by six feet. Most tie down cars use 16 bolts/nuts per rail to hold the rail in place. Tie down cars have air impact wrenches that run off train air plus small generators for lights, etc.
Most of the rail racks are friction only (greased before loading) and rollers about every 4th or 5th rack (frequently rust seized)...
Most of the buffer cars for these rascals are old reefer cars filled with sawdust and old woodchips....OK until the soft creme filling gets wet in a leaky car and festers for a while in the heat -
BaltACD There is a 'lock' car near the middle of the train - rails are locked into position on that car and that car alone. All the other cars in the train have roller or slider systems that will let the rails move in their assigned channels on those cars as necessary when traversing curves. When time comes to unload the rails, the suitable lock on the particular rail is released and the rail is unloaded as MofW desires. Rails will be unlocked one or two at a time in concert with MofW's unloading program. When rails are loaded, they are threaded through specific empty channels and when completed, the rail will be locked down on the 'lock' car.
There is a 'lock' car near the middle of the train - rails are locked into position on that car and that car alone. All the other cars in the train have roller or slider systems that will let the rails move in their assigned channels on those cars as necessary when traversing curves. When time comes to unload the rails, the suitable lock on the particular rail is released and the rail is unloaded as MofW desires. Rails will be unlocked one or two at a time in concert with MofW's unloading program.
When rails are loaded, they are threaded through specific empty channels and when completed, the rail will be locked down on the 'lock' car.
The following linked site is from a HERZOG Co. site and has a lot of photos of what they describe as their R.U.M. [Rail Unloading Machine] It shows a lot of clear photos of the truck mounted machine and also sows some of the processes involved in the unloading of CWR and a pretty good ophoto of that 'Lock Car' described in this Thread.
See linked site @ https://www.herzog.com/innovation/continuous-welded-rail-distribution-machine/
I have witnessed this CWR operation unloading around here, a couple of times, on BNSF in Wichita area.
Murphy SidingOr maybe limited in speed around certain corners? The one rail train I saw locally was going slow through town and screeching around a corner.
As an example, the transfers (wyes) at Deshler are limited to 10 mph for all trains.
Most trains (and especially heavily loaded cars) will squeal on such tight curves. Has to do with the solid axles.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
On the UP, loaded rail trains are limited to 40 m.p.h. (empties to 50). This was as of 2016.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
jeffhergert The rail trains have a way of 'tying' down the rail for movement. It stops the rail from coming off the train, but allows some 'flex' room for going around curves. Still, they do use a buffer car just in case the tie down fails. One time I had a loaded rail train that was just passing through our area. Train managment called and asked what we showed for an air slip, where the last location was at. We told them the location on the slip, which was also what showed on our paperwork and in the computer system. They were afraid of that, it needed an intermediate inspection and test. (A 'thousand miler' test.) We pulled into the old CNW yard at Council Bluffs. A car man got on and asked what do we do if he finds something? I just shrugged. What he meant was that finding something out of regulation on one car that can't be repaired in place could sideline the whole train. You can't just set out an offending car, for reasons obvious in Balt's picture. He started the test and inspection. It wasn't long before he called another car man. He said to bring a lot of brake shoes, about all he could find. Eventually, they finished the test and inspection, lifted the blue flags and gave us a new air slip and we were on our way. Jeff
The rail trains have a way of 'tying' down the rail for movement. It stops the rail from coming off the train, but allows some 'flex' room for going around curves. Still, they do use a buffer car just in case the tie down fails.
One time I had a loaded rail train that was just passing through our area. Train managment called and asked what we showed for an air slip, where the last location was at. We told them the location on the slip, which was also what showed on our paperwork and in the computer system. They were afraid of that, it needed an intermediate inspection and test. (A 'thousand miler' test.)
We pulled into the old CNW yard at Council Bluffs. A car man got on and asked what do we do if he finds something? I just shrugged. What he meant was that finding something out of regulation on one car that can't be repaired in place could sideline the whole train. You can't just set out an offending car, for reasons obvious in Balt's picture.
He started the test and inspection. It wasn't long before he called another car man. He said to bring a lot of brake shoes, about all he could find. Eventually, they finished the test and inspection, lifted the blue flags and gave us a new air slip and we were on our way.
Jeff
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Lithonia OperatorI'm having trouble envisioning this. What would cause a string to move back towards the "anchor" locomotive? Some kind of stretch-then-recoil force?
I'm pretty sure the rails are on rollers. If there is no way to restrict their movement, once they get rolling, they're going to continue rolling (each rail weighs ~25 tons, depending on weight). Once the rail begins moving, game on. (Newton, and all that)
Add the possibility of a slight grade and you've compounded the problem.
I would imagine the car that Balt mentions has some method of clamping on the rail to stop its movement.
Murphy Siding Lithonia Operator SD70Dude CN used to unload the rail by anchoring it to a second locomotive behind the rail train, and then having the lead locomotive pull the train ahead slowly. That practice ended after a string got away and smashed into the rear locomotive's cab, killing the Engineer. I'm having trouble envisioning this. What would cause a string to move back towards the "anchor" locomotive? Some kind of stretch-then-recoil force? And an add-on question. How do they do it differently now? I presume they put in a buffer car or two?
Lithonia Operator SD70Dude CN used to unload the rail by anchoring it to a second locomotive behind the rail train, and then having the lead locomotive pull the train ahead slowly. That practice ended after a string got away and smashed into the rear locomotive's cab, killing the Engineer. I'm having trouble envisioning this. What would cause a string to move back towards the "anchor" locomotive? Some kind of stretch-then-recoil force?
SD70Dude CN used to unload the rail by anchoring it to a second locomotive behind the rail train, and then having the lead locomotive pull the train ahead slowly. That practice ended after a string got away and smashed into the rear locomotive's cab, killing the Engineer.
And an add-on question. How do they do it differently now? I presume they put in a buffer car or two?
CSX uses a 'threader car' on one end of their rail trains for use in loading and unloading the trains in the field. The rail trains must be operated with the threader car on the 'right' end for the work the train is to perform at its designated location(s).
SD70DudeCN used to unload the rail by anchoring it to a second locomotive behind the rail train, and then having the lead locomotive pull the train ahead slowly. That practice ended after a string got away and smashed into the rear locomotive's cab, killing the Engineer.
SD70Dude CN's rules specifically prohibit the "gravity stretch". So you have to go through the motions on the radio anyway. A few years ago we got a bulletin with instructions on how to visually tell whether or not the pins have dropped, but a powered stretch is still required.
CN's rules specifically prohibit the "gravity stretch". So you have to go through the motions on the radio anyway.
A few years ago we got a bulletin with instructions on how to visually tell whether or not the pins have dropped, but a powered stretch is still required.
Yeah, we're required to also stretch the joint. Even when it can plainly be seen that the joint made because of the slack action sometimes involved.
The other day we had to make a rear end pickup on a 9000 ft train. When stretching the joint we came apart close to the rear of our existing train (before the pickup) because of a faulty pin lifter lever. A car man was called and repaired it. Once ready to recouple, the utility brakeman working with us said to 'pin back' 15 feet to a joint. I started moving back. The engines had moved a couple of cars when he finally said all moving - 15 ft to a hook.
BaltACD A knuckle is a terrible thing to break
A knuckle is a terrible thing to break
So, does anybody know what ultimately was done to clean this up? My intuition tells me they would have selected the option that reopened the line the quickest, which I suspect involved cutting it up.
zugmann The trick is to hit them hard enough so they stretch themselves.
The trick is to hit them hard enough so they stretch themselves.
I've had a couple of engineers like that...
I had one engineer who was very proud of his "light touch" hitch once (occupied passenger cars during a run-around). Until I told him to go back out and try it again...
SD70DudeCN's rules specifically prohibit the "gravity stretch". So you have to go through the motions on the radio anyway.
Not really a gravity stretch. It's a powered stretch.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Murphy Siding I watched a crew pull an empty lumber car out of our yard today. The conductor on the ground directed the engineer in until the engine coupled with the car. He then had the engineer back up to take out the slack before connecting hoses. Why the back up? The conductor also walked to the other end of the car and appeared to do something with the end of the brake hose. He also did something that held the hose up so it wouldn't drag on the ground. (I watched from a couple hundred feet back, as I know I don't care for people watching me while I work.)
I watched a crew pull an empty lumber car out of our yard today. The conductor on the ground directed the engineer in until the engine coupled with the car. He then had the engineer back up to take out the slack before connecting hoses. Why the back up? The conductor also walked to the other end of the car and appeared to do something with the end of the brake hose. He also did something that held the hose up so it wouldn't drag on the ground. (I watched from a couple hundred feet back, as I know I don't care for people watching me while I work.)
Stretching is required by the rulebook. Failure to do so each and every time can result in a failed efficiency test, discipline, or dismissal. I think that particular rule is overkill, as one can easily see whether or not the pins have dropped. I have never seen a joint turn out to be bad after seeing both pins drop, but I have seen a number of joints pass the stretch test, only to fail later on because the pin did not drop completely. That situation has led to at least three derailments that were investigated by our TSB, including the fatal runaway that shut down the Englewood Railway (North America's last logger).
An air hose or anything else hanging down below rail height will set off dragging equipment detectors.
BaltACDDisturbed track structure - from the subgrade to the top of the rail is somewhat akin to having constructed something on top ball bearings - everything has movement potential in its relation to its neighbor. The running of tonnage trains act as a vibrator to ease all the elements of the track structure into stable, lasting relations with its neighbor. The vibratory effects of increasing amounts of tonnage stabilize the track structure for increasingly higher speeds.
To make what Balt is saying a bit clearer: Both vibration and vertical compression are important in achieving compaction. The situation is a little different from concrete vibratory compaction where weight is less critical in achieving the desired effect (as you have a semiliquid that subsequently chemically sets up).
One approach that was tried for subgrade is so-called roller-compacted concrete (RCC) which is like a very harsh aggregate mixture that gains its strength more from rolled compression rather than vibratory screeding or whatever, and (perhaps more importantly) is 'self-healing' when it is displaced or moved in place. In railroad applications you DO provide further vibratory compression of this material, but that is done far more effectively with multiple passing trains than at the time of placement.
(Incidentally a layer of asphalt over this sort of RCC turned out to be the 'best use of asphalt in railroad construction' that was a contest in the mid-Seventies ... it keeps any 'draining' water preferentially out of the subgrade, but you have to be VERY careful to keep it from reaching its softening temperature ... or you'll start to get the mother of all sun kinking.)
I have to wonder whether the relatively recent vast improvement in some heavy unit-train running (I routinely see loaded coal trains at 40mph that are barely perceptible in terms of running shock or noise) makes the process of compaction slower or less reliably certain. The weight is certainly there.
jeffhergert Overmod Murphy Siding Am I reading this right? There could be a slow ordered track where the train speed could be increased after part of the train has passed over it? See the discussion about trestles being filled in. When track has been repaired or modified, it has to be 'settled in' to pack everything, As the weight and vibration of the train can be highly effective in accomplishing this ... but the track geometry still variable until it has been substantially achieved ... it is not unusual for there to be a slow order until xxx tons have passed over the repair or whatever to compact it. One can easily understand why this is a 'statutory' number and not some science-based index resulting from periodic track measurements; one can also understand why a continuous train control that is tracking the number of tons might be programmed to (1) cancel the slow order the moment the critical "ton" passes over, and (2) communicates the lifting directly to the train crew so they can resume normal PSR speed. Yes these locations are 'disturbed' track locations. Places where work, such as changing out ties, has been done. Generally, ours are 15mph for so many tons, than 30mph, then 45mph, then 60mph, then removed. (Using an example where max speed is 70mph.) Every increase is after x amount of tons. Now, the dispatcher's computer must keep track of how many tons have passed over the spot. It will upgrade to the next higher speed after calculating the magic number has been reached. What happens is it's communicated to PTC, which updates the slows in the engine's on-board computer. When this happens we ask the dispatcher if the speed has been raised. Sometimes the answer is no, our train needs to fully pass over the spot before it's effective. PTC/CAD justs jumps the gun on raising the speed. Likewise, a track foreman who's standing at the spot can't raise the speed to the train if the restriction was issued by the dispatcher. I've had a dispatcher issue is a 10mph slow because a previous train reported rough track. The track foreman arrives and watches us enter the restricted spot. He wants to see how the train rides at 25mph and asks us to increase speed. Unless the dispatcher says to be governed by the employee in charge, the speed issued by the dispatcher has to be followed. Had the track foreman issued the original restriction, he could authorize a higher speed. Jeff
Overmod Murphy Siding Am I reading this right? There could be a slow ordered track where the train speed could be increased after part of the train has passed over it? See the discussion about trestles being filled in. When track has been repaired or modified, it has to be 'settled in' to pack everything, As the weight and vibration of the train can be highly effective in accomplishing this ... but the track geometry still variable until it has been substantially achieved ... it is not unusual for there to be a slow order until xxx tons have passed over the repair or whatever to compact it. One can easily understand why this is a 'statutory' number and not some science-based index resulting from periodic track measurements; one can also understand why a continuous train control that is tracking the number of tons might be programmed to (1) cancel the slow order the moment the critical "ton" passes over, and (2) communicates the lifting directly to the train crew so they can resume normal PSR speed.
Murphy Siding Am I reading this right? There could be a slow ordered track where the train speed could be increased after part of the train has passed over it?
See the discussion about trestles being filled in.
When track has been repaired or modified, it has to be 'settled in' to pack everything, As the weight and vibration of the train can be highly effective in accomplishing this ... but the track geometry still variable until it has been substantially achieved ... it is not unusual for there to be a slow order until xxx tons have passed over the repair or whatever to compact it.
One can easily understand why this is a 'statutory' number and not some science-based index resulting from periodic track measurements; one can also understand why a continuous train control that is tracking the number of tons might be programmed to (1) cancel the slow order the moment the critical "ton" passes over, and (2) communicates the lifting directly to the train crew so they can resume normal PSR speed.
Yes these locations are 'disturbed' track locations. Places where work, such as changing out ties, has been done. Generally, ours are 15mph for so many tons, than 30mph, then 45mph, then 60mph, then removed. (Using an example where max speed is 70mph.) Every increase is after x amount of tons.
Now, the dispatcher's computer must keep track of how many tons have passed over the spot. It will upgrade to the next higher speed after calculating the magic number has been reached. What happens is it's communicated to PTC, which updates the slows in the engine's on-board computer. When this happens we ask the dispatcher if the speed has been raised. Sometimes the answer is no, our train needs to fully pass over the spot before it's effective. PTC/CAD justs jumps the gun on raising the speed.
Likewise, a track foreman who's standing at the spot can't raise the speed to the train if the restriction was issued by the dispatcher. I've had a dispatcher issue is a 10mph slow because a previous train reported rough track. The track foreman arrives and watches us enter the restricted spot. He wants to see how the train rides at 25mph and asks us to increase speed. Unless the dispatcher says to be governed by the employee in charge, the speed issued by the dispatcher has to be followed. Had the track foreman issued the original restriction, he could authorize a higher speed.
As of the time of my retirement, CADS was not equipped with any form of automatic upgrade to speed restrictions implemented account of disturbed track conditions following track work. MofW issues and up grades the restrictions based on their keeping data on the trains that are operated over those track segments, data they obtain in conversation with the Train Dispatcher. On CSX, passenger trains did not count in the tonnage calculations, whenever possible, passenger trains would be operated around disturbed track segments in efforts to minimize delays to them. Qualified MofW personnel will inspect the track after the passage after the passage of the required amount of tonnage and if warranted will raise the speed of the restriction to the next level of the cascade. Raising the speed of the restriction is not a automatic function - each upgrade to any speed restriction must be a result of inspection by a qualified inspector.
The 'Filling in a trestle' thread has discussions about soil compaction. The cascade of slow orders when operating over distrubed track is a strategy to provide 'compaction' to the recently uncompacted track structure. Disturbed track structure - from the subgrade to the top of the rail is somewhat akin to having constructed something on top ball bearings - everything has movement potential in its relation to its neighbor. The running of tonnage trains act as a vibrator to ease all the elements of the track structure into stable, lasting relations with its neighbor. The vibratory effects of increasing amounts of tonnage stabilize the track structure for increasingly higher speeds.
Insights from a incident in 2002
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RAB0405.pdf
As to stretching after coupling, I have noticed it when private cars were added to Amtrak #5 in Denver. I was not on the ground, watching, but I could tell what was being done--and it seemed that whoever was doing the coupling was having trouble really coupling, what with three or four back and forth moves. I noticed this on more than one trip.
Johnny
If he was stretching, it's just to make sure that the hitch was good. We do it all the time - better safe than sorry when you've got a trainload of passengers. Sometimes the pin doesn't drop all the way.
Glad hands aren't indestructable. We generally make sure they won't be dragging.
As for being watched - that's every day on a tourist railroad.
Murphy SidingAm I reading this right? There could be a slow ordered track where the train speed could be increased after part of the train has passed over it? So….. after the first half of the dynamite train passes over the meteorite crater, the train can accelerate back up to track speed.
So….. after the first half of the dynamite train passes over the meteorite crater, the train can accelerate back up to track speed.
The only place I have seen that type of speed restriction is in TTSI wherein certain highway road crossings have a specified speed restrictions for 'head end only'. The restriction is interperted as, for example, 10 MPH for the head end over XYZ Street and then the train can accelerate to track speed, even though the balance of the train is still passing over XYZ Street.
Normal speed restrictions apply to the ENTIRE TRAIN passing over the area specified in the restriction.
Murphy SidingAm I reading this right? There could be a slow ordered track where the train speed could be increased after part of the train has passed over it?
jeffhergert Murphy Siding If PTC can tell you that you are going too fast, is it also made to have slow orders programmed in? "Hey bubb! Ease back a bit, there's a slow order just around the bend." Yes, the PTC has the temporary restrictions programmed into it. The system is updated everytime the dispatcher updates the computer. We get paper bulletins issued and compare them to PTC. On those specific slows that get upgraded after so many tons have passed over them, it's not unusual to have PTC show a higher speed than what the paperwork shows. Until the dispatcher issues the changes to us, we have to follow the slower speed listed in the paperwork. Jeff
Murphy Siding If PTC can tell you that you are going too fast, is it also made to have slow orders programmed in? "Hey bubb! Ease back a bit, there's a slow order just around the bend."
If PTC can tell you that you are going too fast, is it also made to have slow orders programmed in? "Hey bubb! Ease back a bit, there's a slow order just around the bend."
Yes, the PTC has the temporary restrictions programmed into it. The system is updated everytime the dispatcher updates the computer. We get paper bulletins issued and compare them to PTC. On those specific slows that get upgraded after so many tons have passed over them, it's not unusual to have PTC show a higher speed than what the paperwork shows.
Until the dispatcher issues the changes to us, we have to follow the slower speed listed in the paperwork.
Murphy Siding . . . Would an engineer be more or less likely to feel a train on the ground at lower speeds?
- PDN.
That, in a word, is what PTC is all about. Such changes appear on the PTC screen well ahead of the restriction, no matter what it is.
CShaveRR Norris, a good engineer can feel a derailment at very low speeds. We had an engineer who felt--accurately--a derailment on a hump shove, which wasn't moving faster than a walk.Another engineer was coupling a track in the yard to pull back over the hump. "I think we've got something on the ground here." He was instructed to pull them back anyway. It took a bit of power, but he was able to yank them out. That was one track--and part of a lead--that couldn't be used for a while!
Norris, a good engineer can feel a derailment at very low speeds. We had an engineer who felt--accurately--a derailment on a hump shove, which wasn't moving faster than a walk.Another engineer was coupling a track in the yard to pull back over the hump. "I think we've got something on the ground here." He was instructed to pull them back anyway. It took a bit of power, but he was able to yank them out. That was one track--and part of a lead--that couldn't be used for a while!
The BNSF line past our lumberyard must have a slow order just north of us. The trains come through now at what looks like a brisk, walking pace. I happened to be out back yesterday and time a unit grain train going by in just under 5 minutes. I wondered if there have been any major derailments of a train moving over a slow order spot of track. My guess would be no, I'd think whoever is making that decision is going to err on the side of safety. Would an engineer be more or less likely to feel a train on the ground at lower speeds?
Electroliner 1935So YES, Larry, the concept goes back a long way.
tree68If you look carefully at Starrucca Viaduct, you'll note the stones sticking out from the supporting columns. I'm pretty sure they were there to support the falsework needed to build the arches. I remember when that dawned on me - I was rather impressed at the ingenuity. I'm sure the technique predates that viaduct, though.
When my wife & I took a trip to France about 15 years ago, we included a stop in Arles Fr and I spent a day driving in the country and we saw the Pont de Gard Roman Aqueduct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pont_du_Gard
It was built in the period of 40–60 AD to supply water to Nîmes. It has projecting bricks or stones to support scaffolding during construction.
So YES, Larry, the concept goes back a long way.
Murphy Siding 54light15 This may be of interest as it looks like the bridges pictured in the above photo and links. It's been buried since the early 1950s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_Street_Bridge There was some subsidence a few years ago and someone looked in the hole and said, "There's a bridge down here!" and it got in the papers. People had forgotten about it. It's just south of Dundas Street. Here's a quote from the linked article that made me laugh. I'm envisioning an episode of This is your life! " once spanned over Garrison Creek valley (the actual creek disappeared as brick sewer in 1885". It looks like a pretty good sized bridge to be replace by simply making the creek into a brick sewer.
54light15 This may be of interest as it looks like the bridges pictured in the above photo and links. It's been buried since the early 1950s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_Street_Bridge There was some subsidence a few years ago and someone looked in the hole and said, "There's a bridge down here!" and it got in the papers. People had forgotten about it. It's just south of Dundas Street.
This may be of interest as it looks like the bridges pictured in the above photo and links. It's been buried since the early 1950s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_Street_Bridge
There was some subsidence a few years ago and someone looked in the hole and said, "There's a bridge down here!" and it got in the papers. People had forgotten about it. It's just south of Dundas Street.
Here's a quote from the linked article that made me laugh. I'm envisioning an episode of This is your life! " once spanned over Garrison Creek valley (the actual creek disappeared as brick sewer in 1885". It looks like a pretty good sized bridge to be replace by simply making the creek into a brick sewer.
The Western Maryland did a similar thing with its crossing of Gwynns Falls - a stream in Owings Mills, MD. Made a fill out of a bridge over the stream and installed a culvert to handle the water. All was good until Hurricane Agnes in June of 1972 - water backed up behind the fill to the point that it totally washed out the fill which then swept across Reisterstown Road - sweeping away a mother and daughter in the car operating on the road (I believe they were found 8 or 9 months later somewhere along the Chesapeake Bay.
After Agnes the right of way was rebuilt with a bridge spanning the stream.
Underestimating the flow of streams that get hidden in culverts or other underground means of carrying the water creates catastrophic issues when the 1000 year storm happens twice in three years - Think Ellicott City, MD.
Convicted One Overmod I believe you'll find that many of these had the arch cast on formwork on a scow or barge, which was then moved into position relative to piers and positioned with appropriate haunch loading; this was then used as structure to support the spandrel formwork and eventually the deck. Arches could be precast or sectional too. Actually, I had a couple of long dormant brain cells suddenly sputter back to life and remembered one of the names I used to see on the builders plates of these bridges "Grosvenor".....I remembered it because as a youngster I always used to confuse the name on the plates with the editor of National Geographic. Anyway the local engineer was A.W. Grosvenor. And after doing a search for him came upon a bit more of his legacy. He prefered the Melan rib style of reinforcement over the more common re-bar, and tended to cast-in-place over falsework. Here is another "in progress" photo of another local bridge he designed, showing the placement of the reinforcement. Link to photo
Overmod I believe you'll find that many of these had the arch cast on formwork on a scow or barge, which was then moved into position relative to piers and positioned with appropriate haunch loading; this was then used as structure to support the spandrel formwork and eventually the deck. Arches could be precast or sectional too.
Actually, I had a couple of long dormant brain cells suddenly sputter back to life and remembered one of the names I used to see on the builders plates of these bridges "Grosvenor".....I remembered it because as a youngster I always used to confuse the name on the plates with the editor of National Geographic. Anyway the local engineer was A.W. Grosvenor. And after doing a search for him came upon a bit more of his legacy.
He prefered the Melan rib style of reinforcement over the more common re-bar, and tended to cast-in-place over falsework.
Here is another "in progress" photo of another local bridge he designed, showing the placement of the reinforcement.
Link to photo
Convicted One Murphy Siding I would think that constructing an arched concrete bridge like this would have been more expensive than a steel alternative way back then. It seems like the builders would have spent forever setting forms and pouring concrete- over the top of a river. It is amazing how you sometimes inspire the best in me. Here is a picture of that very bridge being constructed. Note the steel bridge in the background that is being replaced. This bridge and a few carbon copies were built in the early 1920's by a group who must have had an extremely inflated self image, they engraved their names in a plethora of public works projects, assuring them a "cast in stone" legacy. This group got their names on more items than any other generation in this city's history. This particular bridge had an engraved granite panel mounted on the cement walkway that was in the neighborhood of 3 feet square, listing all their names. Making these bridges a memorial stone to the group of men behind them. With this particular picture you may need to adjust brightness/contrast to suit, to bring out more detail. Link to image
Murphy Siding I would think that constructing an arched concrete bridge like this would have been more expensive than a steel alternative way back then. It seems like the builders would have spent forever setting forms and pouring concrete- over the top of a river.
It is amazing how you sometimes inspire the best in me. Here is a picture of that very bridge being constructed. Note the steel bridge in the background that is being replaced. This bridge and a few carbon copies were built in the early 1920's by a group who must have had an extremely inflated self image, they engraved their names in a plethora of public works projects, assuring them a "cast in stone" legacy. This group got their names on more items than any other generation in this city's history. This particular bridge had an engraved granite panel mounted on the cement walkway that was in the neighborhood of 3 feet square, listing all their names. Making these bridges a memorial stone to the group of men behind them.
With this particular picture you may need to adjust brightness/contrast to suit, to bring out more detail.
Link to image
If you look carefully at Starrucca Viaduct, you'll note the stones sticking out from the supporting columns.
I'm pretty sure they were there to support the falsework needed to build the arches.
I remember when that dawned on me - I was rather impressed at the ingenuity. I'm sure the technique predates that viaduct, though.
OvermodI believe you'll find that many of these had the arch cast on formwork on a scow or barge, which was then moved into position relative to piers and positioned with appropriate haunch loading; this was then used as structure to support the spandrel formwork and eventually the deck. Arches could be precast or sectional too.
I'd be tempted to do one of two things with the rail train. Both involve pulling one end out far enough to drop the rail completely off it in some controlled manner, as I doubt you could raise or block the rail to get the train recoupled under it.
One approach is to pull the end away and drop the rail, then couple additional cars to the opposite end of the standing cut and winch each string in turn until all the strings are back on.
The alternative would be to drop all the rail, to get the main open (with lots of rail on the ties and to either side) and then recouple the rail train and start recovering strings as traffic permits.
You could couple a 'third' set of rail-bearing cars at one end, then pull across, but each 'tail end' would have to be carefully accommodated. Presumably there is low enough resistance that more than one string could be pulled at a time in this case... if that is at all safe. I'd be VERY leery of stray tension built up in those dropped spans...
Here is a second bridge built by the same group, same time period. Note again this bridge is also replacing a steel truss predecessor:
https://i.imgur.com/dM11Wmk.png
https://i.imgur.com/6AdvcYJ.png
And yet a 3rd bridge, same group, but slightly different design, this one you couldn't pass all the way through the interior
https://i.imgur.com/THjT5Vb.png
Murphy SidingI would think that constructing an arched concrete bridge like this would have been more expensive than a steel alternative way back then. It seems like the builders would have spent forever setting forms and pouring concrete- over the top of a river.
I believe you'll find that many of these had the arch cast on formwork on a scow or barge, which was then moved into position relative to piers and positioned with appropriate haunch loading; this was then used as structure to support the spandrel formwork and eventually the deck. Arches could be precast or sectional too.
Convicted One
Murphy Sidingw do they go about realoading this? It looks kind if like trying to put toothepaste back in the tube.
Looks like it would be quite a challenge short of just buzzing them off and collecting the trimmings after the train is moved out.
Recovery, IMO, might be the best argument for writing it off as scrap.
Still, I wonder if it would be practical to back up an empty rail train to the one stranded, and pull each rail individually onto the empty one.
Paul_D_North_Jrno, I didn't do it, but I have a photo of Ken Wolfgang who did, way back when we were young [I was 14, I think] and foolish).
Both the bridge you present and the one Tree offers, are incredible structures, way beyond the scope of anything I would feel safe climbing on.
The bridges I used to climb through had exactly the opposite peril. They were of a size that the top of their arch nearly touched the bottom of the deck above. Meaning the portals one has to pass through in the center of the spans were probably no more than 14" square.
Having always been a chubby one, I used to always worry about getting stuck.
A few miles north of Tunkahannock is the Martin's Creek, or Kingsley Viaduct, Tunkahannock's little brother. N 41.74476 W 75.75275
I was pleasantly surprised to encounter it after visiting Nicholson, then continuing north on Route 11 instead of returning to the Interstate.
Not too far further north is a closed interlocking tower, all concrete.
Paul_D_North_Jr Convicted One Electroliner 1935 For what its worth, the CSX (former NYC, C.C.C. & St.L ) viaduct over the Miami River in Sidney OH. is slowly crumbling or spalling concrete. I can't post the pic's I took last time I was there but possibly it has been repaired since the white areas on this GOGGLE image. It is a magnificant multi-arch viaduct. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2737842,-84.1547162,3a,90y,352.82h,92.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg02Nvvpt6HT9dYlRn2Ijbg!2e0!7i3328!8i1664 Growning up we had a number of those style bridges for roadways, which since they were a popular way to cross utilities as well, had service portals cast in the vertical panels, allowing adventurous children to climb cell to cell in the bridge's interior, passing all the way across. Here's the link to the Bridgehunter.com webpage on the Sidney 'Big 4' bridge: https://bridgehunter.com/oh/shelby/big-four/ From the description: "Large 5 span open-spandrel concrete arch bridge more than 200 feet tall and 400 feet long. It has crumbling concrete in spots and has been patched to repair wear and tear damage." Elsewhere on that page it says 783 ft. long. Bridgehunter's page on the Tunkhannock Viaduct: https://bridgehunter.com/pa/wyoming/tunkhannock/ - PDN.
Convicted One Electroliner 1935 For what its worth, the CSX (former NYC, C.C.C. & St.L ) viaduct over the Miami River in Sidney OH. is slowly crumbling or spalling concrete. I can't post the pic's I took last time I was there but possibly it has been repaired since the white areas on this GOGGLE image. It is a magnificant multi-arch viaduct. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2737842,-84.1547162,3a,90y,352.82h,92.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg02Nvvpt6HT9dYlRn2Ijbg!2e0!7i3328!8i1664 Growning up we had a number of those style bridges for roadways, which since they were a popular way to cross utilities as well, had service portals cast in the vertical panels, allowing adventurous children to climb cell to cell in the bridge's interior, passing all the way across.
Electroliner 1935 For what its worth, the CSX (former NYC, C.C.C. & St.L ) viaduct over the Miami River in Sidney OH. is slowly crumbling or spalling concrete. I can't post the pic's I took last time I was there but possibly it has been repaired since the white areas on this GOGGLE image. It is a magnificant multi-arch viaduct. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2737842,-84.1547162,3a,90y,352.82h,92.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg02Nvvpt6HT9dYlRn2Ijbg!2e0!7i3328!8i1664
Growning up we had a number of those style bridges for roadways, which since they were a popular way to cross utilities as well, had service portals cast in the vertical panels, allowing adventurous children to climb cell to cell in the bridge's interior, passing all the way across.
Here's the link to the Bridgehunter.com webpage on the Sidney 'Big 4' bridge:
https://bridgehunter.com/oh/shelby/big-four/
From the description:
"Large 5 span open-spandrel concrete arch bridge more than 200 feet tall and 400 feet long. It has crumbling concrete in spots and has been patched to repair wear and tear damage."
Elsewhere on that page it says 783 ft. long.
Bridgehunter's page on the Tunkhannock Viaduct:
https://bridgehunter.com/pa/wyoming/tunkhannock/
The grandaddy of them all - the Tunkhannock Viaduct (also known as the Nicholson Viaduct or Bridge):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunkhannock_Viaduct
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunkhannock_Viaduct#/media/File:Steamtown-Nicholson-Viaduct.JPG
2,375 ft. long x 240 ft. high from the creekbed, 105 years old and still in service being used by a Class 1 (NS since 2015). At the time it was built it was the largest concrete structure in the world, and I understand it's still the largest concrete bridge(however that's determined).
This site has several close-up views of the bridge;
https://www.gribblenation.org/2017/03/tunkhannock-viaduct.html?m=0
Note that each arch is two parallel arches, and there are portals in the vertical columns for access to walk across each arch for inspection and minor maintenance purposes. I'll leave the rest up to your imagination (no, I didn't do it, but I have a photo of Ken Wolfgang who did, way back when we were young [I was 14, I think] and foolish).
Electroliner 1935For what its worth, the CSX (former NYC, C.C.C. & St.L ) viaduct over the Miami River in Sidney OH. is slowly crumbling or spalling concrete. I can't post the pic's I took last time I was there but possibly it has been repaired since the white areas on this GOGGLE image. It is a magnificant multi-arch viaduct. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2737842,-84.1547162,3a,90y,352.82h,92.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg02Nvvpt6HT9dYlRn2Ijbg!2e0!7i3328!8i1664
I've always been very fond of those open spandrel concrete arch bridges. There is a bridge very similar in design on the Big Four's old line in Putnam County Indiana.
Murphy SidingJust planning ahead for a major rails to trails project
Well, there is no shortage of theories, but that is the first time I've heard that one.
Convicted One rrnut282 The abutments are there for three or four tracks, had two for over half a century, and now has only one track. Originally built in 1937, I believe. Any thoughts as to what the original intent of the expansion that never materialized, was? (lights fuse, and runs)
rrnut282 The abutments are there for three or four tracks, had two for over half a century, and now has only one track.
Originally built in 1937, I believe. Any thoughts as to what the original intent of the expansion that never materialized, was? (lights fuse, and runs)
BaltACD rrnut282 Convicted One Overmod Shackles. This guy here, otoh, is much less of a mystery. I can see all the points of attachment for the shackles. Precast bridge beams coming from Pre-Stressed Concrete in Decatur, IN. The truck in the previous photo could be hauling bulk shackles, not shackles installed, ready for use. Several years ago I passed several trucks carrying overlength concrete beams North on I-95 in South Carolina. They were arranged such that the final wheelset on the beams were steerable with a individual having a seat, steering wheel and windbreak for his riding position. Did I mention that the temperature was in the upper 30's and it was raining. Everybody needs to have a job - that is one I would not want in those circumstance.
rrnut282 Convicted One Overmod Shackles. This guy here, otoh, is much less of a mystery. I can see all the points of attachment for the shackles. Precast bridge beams coming from Pre-Stressed Concrete in Decatur, IN. The truck in the previous photo could be hauling bulk shackles, not shackles installed, ready for use.
Convicted One Overmod Shackles. This guy here, otoh, is much less of a mystery. I can see all the points of attachment for the shackles.
Overmod Shackles.
This guy here, otoh, is much less of a mystery. I can see all the points of attachment for the shackles.
Precast bridge beams coming from Pre-Stressed Concrete in Decatur, IN. The truck in the previous photo could be hauling bulk shackles, not shackles installed, ready for use.
Several years ago I passed several trucks carrying overlength concrete beams North on I-95 in South Carolina. They were arranged such that the final wheelset on the beams were steerable with a individual having a seat, steering wheel and windbreak for his riding position. Did I mention that the temperature was in the upper 30's and it was raining. Everybody needs to have a job - that is one I would not want in those circumstance.
Convicted One Here is a picture of a neglected NS bridge in a neglected part of town. Former NYC/Fort Wayne & Jackson Still in light use, mostly as car storage. Then, less than two miles away we have this former PRR/Grand Rapids & Indiana that sits abandoned, tracks long gone, and not even a bikepath over it And then there is this bridge, Former PRR mainline,currently belongs to CSX, but the line is leased to C,F,&E and mostly used by NS as a connection between Cincinnati and Chicago. Technically a CSX bridge, but seldom, if ever used by them
Here is a picture of a neglected NS bridge in a neglected part of town. Former NYC/Fort Wayne & Jackson Still in light use, mostly as car storage.
Then, less than two miles away we have this former PRR/Grand Rapids & Indiana that sits abandoned, tracks long gone, and not even a bikepath over it
And then there is this bridge, Former PRR mainline,currently belongs to CSX, but the line is leased to C,F,&E and mostly used by NS as a connection between Cincinnati and Chicago.
Technically a CSX bridge, but seldom, if ever used by them
That last one might be one of my favorites, due to the pedestrian walkway on the right side, built like a fortress. Gee, that might be the best maintained CSX bridge in the state, and they (CSX) don't even use it.
Gee, that might be the best maintained CSX bridge in the state, and they (CSX) don't even use it.
The third view in the first post and the post above are different views of the same bridge for those playing from home and weren't sure.
Fun facts: I played a small part in putting in that "sidewalk." The steel painting came years later. I may or may not have ridden a hi-railer over that bridge as part of another project in the area. The abutments are there for three or four tracks, had two for over half a century, and now has only one track.
OvermodWhy would vertical sag produce scrap? True, you'd do some kind of Sperry-like internal metallurgical testing to ensure there is no hidden cracking, but if it passes that test I don't see a necessary reason to reject it categorically. This ain't aerospace.
I don't know if this was a rail train that was taking new or relay rail to be installed in track somewhere or if it was 'pick up' rail that was being taken to a rail plant or to a scrap yard. Rail does not get abandoned it place when it is removed fromtrack - scrapable rail may lay alongside the right of way for several days or weeks, however it will get picked up and moved. If going to a Rail Plant, it will get fully inspected before its ultimate disposition is made.
However, note that in the photo posted by BaltACD, the rail is bent mainly in the vertical direction. Probably what happened after the knuckle broke, the train pulled apart for a pretty good distance - certainly more than what's shown in the photo - but still moving. The rail was then hanging in mid-air, but drooping down. Then the train came partially back together ('ran-in'), which compressed and buckled the rails further downward into the shape as shown. That portion of the strings is scrap, at least.
I see that the little gremlins at Kalmbach IT are messing with the posting utility again. Can the new forum 'experience' be far away? Can't they just pay them off with saucers of warm milk or referrals to North Pole workshops or whatever, and actually hire real IT techs who can get the job finished and be done with it?
I don't think that picture reflects anything but a pull-apart in 'tension' and subsequent gravity sag of the rail 'span'. If there were substantial run-in you'd see some of those lengths bending laterally, which you yourself just established as requiring far less force, probably producing some net upward bowing of some of the upper and outer strings as a resultant -- see some of the other pictures of post-incident rail shapes in other pictures we have seen. There's also more than a little telephoto foreshortening in that image, no?
Why would vertical sag produce scrap? True, you'd do some kind of Sperry-like internal metallurgical testing to ensure there is no hidden cracking, but if it passes that test I don't see a necessary reason to reject it categorically. This ain't aerospace.
Paul_D_North_ Jr2. No cars shall be attached to a rail train other than its own support cars and a buffer car or two. Nor shall a rail train be moved in any other train. (Wonder if the MOW people warned about this but were overruled by an upper management-type . . . Whistling .)
When I was working, BEFORE PSR, that was the train handling instructions for rail trains. Rail trains could be dobuled together but no other traffic could be handled. Of course EHH and his version of PSR viewed such restrictions as archaic.
tree68 Convicted One It's amazing how flexible that stuff is.
Convicted One It's amazing how flexible that stuff is.
BaltACD Miningman Real or faked photo? Very real - happened near Thomasville, GA - PSR copuled a cut of loaded grain cars on the rear of a rail train (rail train cars are among the oldest the railroads own - they are not used in Interchange Service and thus can be older than FRA limits for cars used in interchange service).
Miningman Real or faked photo?
Very real - happened near Thomasville, GA - PSR copuled a cut of loaded grain cars on the rear of a rail train (rail train cars are among the oldest the railroads own - they are not used in Interchange Service and thus can be older than FRA limits for cars used in interchange service).
Convicted OneIt's amazing how flexible that stuff is.
Every now and then a rail train will make it's way around one of the wyes (transfers) at Deshler. At least one person will usually comment in amazement that the train can make the curve.
It's amazing how flexible that stuff is.
Especially considering how I've seen rail segments sunk into the ground on property lines along alleys to protect garages from careless garbage truck drivers, that seemed to have NO GIVE in them what so ever.
MiningmanReal or faked photo?
Probably real. That's happened at least a couple times on CN over the years.
CN used to unload the rail by anchoring it to a second locomotive behind the rail train, and then having the lead locomotive pull the train ahead slowly. That practice ended after a string got away and smashed into the rear locomotive's cab, killing the Engineer.
Real or faked photo?
Took a trip 25 miles north to Dell Rapids, S.D. to look at former Milwaukee Road bridges on the Dakota and Iowa Railroad. They look pretty good, by the way. Some parts of their tracks have reflective stickers on the inside surfaces of the rails. They are red, reflective stickers about 3"x8" situated near rail joints. Any idea what that's about?
Convicted One BaltACD In a prior assignment for my father we lived in Auburn for a little over a year - 1st grade for me was in Aubrun. Were they still making Cords there at the time?
BaltACD In a prior assignment for my father we lived in Auburn for a little over a year - 1st grade for me was in Aubrun.
Were they still making Cords there at the time?
No - 1951-52
BaltACDIn a prior assignment for my father we lived in Auburn for a little over a year - 1st grade for me was in Aubrun.
Convicted One BaltACD Remember when Randolph Street was US 27 and I-69 wasn't even a pipe dream. B&O Depot was just the the East of Randolph Street on the South side of the tracks. To the West of Randolph Street, also on the South side was the Roundhouse for servicing power. I believe a Crossing Watchman operated the crossing gates that protected Randolph Street. Your memory sure is good Balt, I had forgotten all about that. Highway 27 continued north over the tracks until reaching what was also state route 8, and then veered east to Auburn before turning North once again and heading to Waterloo.
BaltACD Remember when Randolph Street was US 27 and I-69 wasn't even a pipe dream. B&O Depot was just the the East of Randolph Street on the South side of the tracks. To the West of Randolph Street, also on the South side was the Roundhouse for servicing power. I believe a Crossing Watchman operated the crossing gates that protected Randolph Street.
Your memory sure is good Balt, I had forgotten all about that. Highway 27 continued north over the tracks until reaching what was also state route 8, and then veered east to Auburn before turning North once again and heading to Waterloo.
And if memory serves from our vacation one year we lived there - US 27 continued all the way North through Michigan using the Mackinac Bridge to reach Sault St. Marie and thence into Canada.
In a prior assignment for my father we lived in Auburn for a little over a year - 1st grade for me was in Aubrun.
Convicted One Even more interesting, look at everything going on out by this little bridge west of Garrett Looks like a crew change point based upon the steps, the biggest switch heater I've ever seen on the platform to the right, and what appears to be a perennial spring rising from under the bridge?
Even more interesting, look at everything going on out by this little bridge west of Garrett
Looks like a crew change point based upon the steps, the biggest switch heater I've ever seen on the platform to the right, and what appears to be a perennial spring rising from under the bridge?
BaltACDRemember when Randolph Street was US 27 and I-69 wasn't even a pipe dream. B&O Depot was just the the East of Randolph Street on the South side of the tracks. To the West of Randolph Street, also on the South side was the Roundhouse for servicing power. I believe a Crossing Watchman operated the crossing gates that protected Randolph Street.
Here we go! I found a couple ag buildings with rusty steel roofs Must be one of those "drunken uncle" types I was mentioning earlier?
And, this odd little pathway, leading to what appears to be a bridge over a bridge over a creek
Convicted OneHere is a nice looking CSX bridge in Garrett IN. Of course it's only been around since 2000, when it was built as a much anticipated grade separation project. CSX paid 20% of the construction cost, with the state picking up most of the rest.
CSX paid 20% of the construction cost, with the state picking up most of the rest.
Remember when Randolph Street was US 27 and I-69 wasn't even a pipe dream. B&O Depot was just the the East of Randolph Street on the South side of the tracks. To the West of Randolph Street, also on the South side was the Roundhouse for servicing power. I believe a Crossing Watchman operated the crossing gates that protected Randolph Street.
Here is a nice looking CSX bridge in Garrett IN. Of course it's only been around since 2000, when it was built as a much anticipated grade separation project.
Murphy SidingWhy the protective ceiling over the walkway ?
The walkway is part of the Fort Wayne River Greenway, and after the wooden planks that were used when first built rotted out, they were replaced with vinyl tubes that were shaped and textured to look like wood. Think "vinyl siding" but molded in a rectangular tube shape, and you got the idea.
Kids trespassing on the bridge discovered that the vinyl was brittle during winter months, and would throw ballast rocks down on the walkway, with force, to break up the plank.
And I don't mean a shot here and a shot there, I'm talking about dozens and dozens of shots that were breaking all the way through the surface. To where you were at risk of falling through it you were not paying attention.
So they put up the frame work and the wire mesh to deterr vandalism. Then the sheet metal directly under the bridge was added later because the bridge would drip for days after a heavy rain, and the surface was extremely slick when wet.
Convicted One Here is sort of an interesting bridge, former Wabash over the St Mary's river in Fort Wayne. Along about 2004-2005 someone came through and marked up the sides with orange fluorescent paint...arrows with various multi digit numbers, likely detail numbers from some written report., and then nothing happened for a couple years. Eventually the marked up areas were spot painted to match the rest of the bridge. It looked pretty good for a while until the taggers came back Here is a detail showing a remnant of the orange marking
Here is sort of an interesting bridge, former Wabash over the St Mary's river in Fort Wayne.
Along about 2004-2005 someone came through and marked up the sides with orange fluorescent paint...arrows with various multi digit numbers, likely detail numbers from some written report., and then nothing happened for a couple years.
Eventually the marked up areas were spot painted to match the rest of the bridge. It looked pretty good for a while until the taggers came back
Here is a detail showing a remnant of the orange marking
BaltACDNote the word 'former'
I'm trying to be completely transparent. If you feel that I have been willfully misleading, please let me know.
Convicted OneHere is another interesting comparison .....still in Muncie Here we see a little rust coming through on a Norfolk Southern bridge Yet pan around 180 degrees and you find this former C&O bridge
Here we see a little rust coming through on a Norfolk Southern bridge
Yet pan around 180 degrees and you find this former C&O bridge
Note the word 'former' as I believe the Chessie System abandoned the C&O line from Cincinnati to Chicago back in the late 1970's.
Here is another interesting comparison .....still in Muncie
Here is an interesting comparison....Muncie In
First, a Norfolk Southern bridge, on the East side of town
Then, not even half a mile away from it, a CSX bridge (former NYC) over the White river (the plate bridge behind the truss bridge). This line is the same former NYC main that crossed I-69 in the "Daleville" photo I posted earlier.
If you pan to the right in the second link, you will find the NS bridge in the first link.
Convicted One tree68 Seems like we had a similar discussion a few years ago He said "post pictures if you got 'em", he didn't specify what the pictures had to be of. I knew I could get away with it because he would welcome discussion about anything besides "you know what"
tree68 Seems like we had a similar discussion a few years ago
He said "post pictures if you got 'em", he didn't specify what the pictures had to be of.
I knew I could get away with it because he would welcome discussion about anything besides "you know what"
tree68Seems like we had a similar discussion a few years ago
That GR&I bridege does serve a purpose--it's a handy place to hang the highway signs.
Seems like we had a similar discussion a few years ago - about CSX and bridge maintenance.
That last one might be one of my favorites, due to the pedestrian walkway on the right side, built like a fortress.
Murphy Siding BaltACD There are established Claim channels and processes for consignees to handle the situation of receiving less product in reality than was certified as having been shipped. Thanks for the explanation. I take it the claim process is a claim against the railroad?
BaltACD There are established Claim channels and processes for consignees to handle the situation of receiving less product in reality than was certified as having been shipped.
There are established Claim channels and processes for consignees to handle the situation of receiving less product in reality than was certified as having been shipped.
Thanks for the explanation. I take it the claim process is a claim against the railroad?
Unless the consignee has some basis in fact to make a claim against the shipper for falsifying the quantity actually shipped. In that case the merits of that kind of claim will end up in court.
Murphy SidingOut of curiosity, is it just CSX bridges in the area that look old and crusty? What do other railroads' bridges in the area look like?
Here in Ft Wayne we have grade separated elevations running across both the North and South sides of Downtown. Norfolk Southern (former NKP) on the North side, and Norfolk Southern (former Wabash) and C,F,&E/CSX (former PRR) on the south side.
And for the most part they are kept up. Of course a few years ago the City designated these structures as "gateways" to the downtown, and repainted all of them, so It's probably not a good comparison to what we've looked at thus far. I'm not sure if the city paid for those gateway paintjobs 100% out of their own pockets, or if there was a split.
I do know that they tend to be image conscious around here, if you do not mow you lawn frequently enough to suit them, they hire a contractor to mow your lawn and just tack the cost onto your property taxes. So, the railroads may be participating in the cost willingly, or otherwise.
It could be just that CSX has an image problem? Sort of like when a family has a "drunken uncle", all the other family members like to make sure they include a drive-by of his house on their Sunday outings, just to admire the peeling paint on his eaves, or torn screens on his windows, to give them something to talk about when they are together?
Other than that, I've got pictures of bridges of the former Wabash RR in Logansport and Lafayette, and former NKP in Peru and Warren that appear fairly well maintained, I can post them if you really want me to, but they just support my argument.
Was watching a documentary last night that claimed that .005"/year is the average rate that unprotected steel loses to corrosion in a typical outdoor environment. I'm not attesting to the veracity of the claim, just found it interesting.
Murphy SidingAnother thing that I haven't ever gotten the full understanding of is grain hauling and liability. A grain load-out facility will fill 110 cars each with something like 3400(?) bushels of corn. Is each car weighed before shipping? Is the transportation cost based on that weight x mileage, or set price per car? If a car leaves Worthing, SD with 3400 bushels of corn but arrives in Duluth, MN with only 2400 bushels of corn, who pays for the 1000 bushels of birdfeed on the ROW?
The carriers in concert with the shippers and consignees have devices known as 'Weight Agreements'. The Shipper in most cases will have processes that weigh the contents that they load into a a car. The shipper, in the agreement certifies (under threat of appropriate penalties) that the weights they publish for a shipment are correct. The shipping documents will be endorsed that the shipment is moving under a 'Shippers Weight Agreement' with the weight being published on the shipping documents.
In some movements, the shipping documents get endorsed 'Weight Agreement - Destination Weights Apply'. In this instance the consignee has processes in place to ascertain the weight of product that is unloaded from the shipment container(s). There are also penalties for entities that falsify the weight reports.
The railroads have their own scales to perform weighing when necessary. The scales may be a single car beam scale or they may be a weighing in motion scale where the train passes over the designated scale at 4 MPH or less and the train's cars get weight axle by axle. A report is generated at the control location of the scale that reports the car number, gross, tare and net weight for each car (scales have been integrated with automatic car identification tag readers).
The weighing processes for all parties, Shipper, Consignee and railroad are tested for their accuracy periodically, or more frequently if error is suspected. Weighing is certified accurate to +/- 100 pounds. All parties participating in a Weight Agreement shipment use the weight agreement published weight for billing purposes. In most cases only one weight is used for billing purposes, shippers, consignees or railroad. Weight Agreements are taken seriously by all parties as knowingly falsifying weight constitutes fraud.
Another thing that I haven't ever gotten the full understanding of is grain hauling and liability. A grain load-out facility will fill 110 cars each with something like 3400(?) bushels of corn. Is each car weighed before shipping? Is the transportation cost based on that weight x mileage, or set price per car? If a car leaves Worthing, SD with 3400 bushels of corn but arrives in Duluth, MN with only 2400 bushels of corn, who pays for the 1000 bushels of birdfeed on the ROW?
Convicted One It is noteworthy the way just that one rail bridge over I-69 is rusty, while all the road bridges are kept up. I suppose that a railroad apologist might try to snake the blame off on the highway dept. But the road bridges appear up to snuff, so I don't think the highway dept is to blame. I blame Precision Scheduled Rustrailing!!
It is noteworthy the way just that one rail bridge over I-69 is rusty, while all the road bridges are kept up.
I suppose that a railroad apologist might try to snake the blame off on the highway dept. But the road bridges appear up to snuff, so I don't think the highway dept is to blame.
I blame Precision Scheduled Rustrailing!!
Jeff, spine cars are your current TOFC cars--the 89-footers couldn't handle pairs of 48-foot or 53-foot trailers. The old flat cars have had all of the hitches taken off and now haul other things like logs, pipe, wind turbine blades, and so on...or they may have gotten auto racks installed on them. You won't find many of them less than 40 years old, so it's turning into a waiting game to see when they'll be retired.
Convicted OneMurphy Siding isn't the highway bridge shown about 50 years newer FWIW, I photographed the Daleville bridge approx. 15 years ago, and there was a starke difference between the two bridges at that time as well. Here ya go roughly 2004-2005 timeframe
isn't the highway bridge shown about 50 years newer
FWIW, I photographed the Daleville bridge approx. 15 years ago, and there was a starke difference between the two bridges at that time as well.
Here ya go roughly 2004-2005 timeframe
For what its worth, the CSX (former NYC, C.C.C. & St.L ) viaduct over the Miami River in Sidney OH. is slowly crumbling or spalling concrete. I can't post the pic's I took last time I was there but possibly it has been repaired since the white areas on this GOGGLE image. It is a magnificant multi-arch viaduct.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2737842,-84.1547162,3a,90y,352.82h,92.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg02Nvvpt6HT9dYlRn2Ijbg!2e0!7i3328!8i1664
jeffhergert Murphy Siding Another dumb question from an enquiring mind- I’ve read about TOFC and the issue of how to load and unload them quicker. Would it be feasible to run a track dropped below the level of a parking lot so that the top of the flat car carrying the TOFC would be at the same level as the parking lot? The first trailer would be a little tricky to unload but after that, backing in and hooking up a short wheelbase truck would be easy for any good truck driver. Sorry, late to the party. Regarding flat cars for TOFC, is there many actual TOFC flat cars left? I can't remember the last time I saw one. Spine cars and well cars are the only ones that I've seen for quite awhile in TOFC service around here. Jeff
Murphy Siding Another dumb question from an enquiring mind- I’ve read about TOFC and the issue of how to load and unload them quicker. Would it be feasible to run a track dropped below the level of a parking lot so that the top of the flat car carrying the TOFC would be at the same level as the parking lot? The first trailer would be a little tricky to unload but after that, backing in and hooking up a short wheelbase truck would be easy for any good truck driver.
Another dumb question from an enquiring mind- I’ve read about TOFC and the issue of how to load and unload them quicker. Would it be feasible to run a track dropped below the level of a parking lot so that the top of the flat car carrying the TOFC would be at the same level as the parking lot? The first trailer would be a little tricky to unload but after that, backing in and hooking up a short wheelbase truck would be easy for any good truck driver.
Sorry, late to the party.
Regarding flat cars for TOFC, is there many actual TOFC flat cars left? I can't remember the last time I saw one. Spine cars and well cars are the only ones that I've seen for quite awhile in TOFC service around here.
jeffhergertRegarding flat cars for TOFC, is there many actual TOFC flat cars left?
1. I think there are beaucoodles of them left; they're just in storage in various places due to 'lack of work'. Budget for a bunch of brake work if you recommission and modify those!
2. Expressway wound up using purpose-built flats essentially modified from container intermodal by installing continuous deck arrangement. No weird low-floor extremely-low-tare weight distributed-TM-and-power-cube architecture -- three-piece trucks and sensible construction. You might want detail design a bit different for same-grade angle loading, but yu could 'see' most of the necessary car structure from what Expressway used.
3. It ought to be really, really easy to convert older well-car sets into continuous-roadway, using a combination of ramps that can be dropped in and some strategic modification of the platforms and articulation areas (some of the 'projecting' brake gear, for example, can be relocated to the area in the wells now covered by the decking, with strategic access hatches, repeater gauges, etc. and levers or other 'inline' means used for handbrake actuation). It would be relatively easy to implement any scale of Lohr-like service, rolled out relatively quickly as capital policy might permit, or just as quickly revert to fixed ramps; it was not "that" difficult to design folding ramps that permitted doublestacking on demand, and I don't think it would be now.
The real key is to find the right 'champion', like the person who took up Expressway, and give him (or her) the support, tools, training methods and morale support to build the business as compellingly as possible.
OvermodShackles.
Murphy SidingTo me, the railroad bridge looks to be maybe 100 old? The highway bridge in that photo looks like every interstate bridge in our state that has been replaced since the early 70's.
I think that section of the Interstate 69 dates to the late 1960's, so "100 years" is probably a bit on the generous side.
Maybe the railroad could use a little help? Maybe we need to create a T.I.F., with the proceeds specifically earmarked towards maintaining the appearance of the bridge?
OvermodDistributed suspension for a better ride between the re-education facilities.
Well, it's the first time I've seen a trailer configured this way. I guess that bulk commodities is what they claim they are designed for, and this is "soy bean central".
Looks like the roof is a soft top, so I guess it all fits.
Either that or an Illudium Q-36 explosive space modulator.
South Shore Line recently replaced its viaduct over the CWI, NKP and Torrence Ave. with a new blue truss bridge. The old viaduct lasted over 100 years and it appeared that age did catch up with it. I'm curious as to the design life of the new bridge.
You have to maintain the new bridges or they will fall apart, they were built by the lowest bidder using the cheapest materials, just enough to not fall apart before being accepted by the RR. The old bridges were better built, of better material and way over-engineered.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Convicted OneI suppose that a railroad apologist might try to snake the blame off on the highway dept. But the road bridges appear up to snuff, so I don't think the highway dept is to blame.
Ever look under those bridges? Looks can be deceiving.
Convicted One Murphy Siding isn't the highway bridge shown about 50 years newer What leads you to believe that? FWIW, I photographed the Daleville bridge approx. 15 years ago, and there was a starke difference between the two bridges at that time as well. Here ya go roughly 2004-2005 timeframe
Murphy Siding isn't the highway bridge shown about 50 years newer
What leads you to believe that?
Lithonia Operator I'm confused. Is the "unmentionable" something with five letters, a dash, then two numerals?
I'm confused. Is the "unmentionable" something with five letters, a dash, then two numerals?
CShaveRR Johnny, that abandoned roundhouse in Aurora is now quite the gathering place, with restaurants and pubs. Pat and I had a good meal there once. And will again, someday!
Johnny, that abandoned roundhouse in Aurora is now quite the gathering place, with restaurants and pubs. Pat and I had a good meal there once. And will again, someday!
Ah, yes, there are buildings that were so well constructed that they can still be used after their original purpose is gone.
The title of the thread used to contain the unmentionable word (with the 2 digits) and that is why I said early on that having the word in the title was already mentioning it. So it got changed to the euphemism just to clean it up, but of course that just brings questions that bring the unmentionable to mind.
Lithonia OperatorI'm confused. Is the "unmentionable" something with five letters, a dash, then two numerals?
If we told you that, it would be mentioning it.
Distributed suspension for a better ride between the re-education facilities.
With all those axles, I kinda doubt that.
Convicted OneIt is noteworthy the way just that one rail bridge over I-69 is rusty, while all the road bridges are kept up. I suppose that a railroad apologist might try to snake the blame off on the highway dept. But the road bridges appear up to snuff, so I don't think the highway dept is to blame. I blame Precision Scheduled Rustrailing!!
I do know about 10 years ago, CSX discovered that the Anacostia River in DC had 'consumed' 75% of the pilings supporting the bridge over that waterway. Caused the absolute closing of the bridge for major emergency repairs, operating the primere intermodal trains through Washington Union Terminal and the rerouting of all other trains around on alternate routings. The bridge had been rebuilt by ConRail in 1978.
Convicted One Speaking of "pictures", what do you suppose they haul in this beast, all disguised under the cover of public safety?
Speaking of "pictures", what do you suppose they haul in this beast, all disguised under the cover of public safety?
Convicted OneSpeaking of "pictures", what do you suppose they haul in this beast, all disguised under the cover of public safety?
Shackles.
Murphy Sidingbut acid rain over the years had caused them to turn that color.Any truth to that idea?
Interesting thought. I have no adequate exposure to make a meaningful response. Never noticed rusty barn roofs up in the northern part of the state.
Convicted One Murphy Siding If I were a betting man, I'd wager your picture is of a rusty CSX bridge in the KY, WV, or PA area? Here is another example of CSX prowess: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1176988,-85.5689422,3a,75y,19.54h,85.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQS1OvFwAPZR-5zmzCZPgCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 The "Daleville" bridge over I-69 just west of Muncie. Notice how well painted the adjacent roadway bridge over the interstate is, and in fact all roadway overpasses for 50 miles in either direction are well painted/maintained. This is a highly active line, being the former NYC main to Saint Louis. So the neglect is not due to abandonment.
Murphy Siding If I were a betting man, I'd wager your picture is of a rusty CSX bridge in the KY, WV, or PA area?
Here is another example of CSX prowess:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1176988,-85.5689422,3a,75y,19.54h,85.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQS1OvFwAPZR-5zmzCZPgCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
The "Daleville" bridge over I-69 just west of Muncie.
Notice how well painted the adjacent roadway bridge over the interstate is, and in fact all roadway overpasses for 50 miles in either direction are well painted/maintained.
This is a highly active line, being the former NYC main to Saint Louis. So the neglect is not due to abandonment.
Electroliner 1935Congratulations Carl, you are one lucky man to have a wife that "allows" (ha) you to persue your hobbies and enjoys going with you.
But I've met them both (got them a cab ride, no less) and visited with them several years ago when I extended my trip to the midwest to include Rochelle. Personalized tour on the way back into town, and dinner at one of their favorite restaurants.
Murphy Sidingf I were a betting man, I'd wager your picture is of a rusty CSX bridge in the KY, WV, or PA area?
BaltACD From my experience the buffer car(s) used for both ethanol and oil trains are covered hoppers that have been loaded with sand.
I saw a northbound BNSF oil train just north of Temple, TX today. The buffer car was an old box car. The logo was the original Burlington Northern Santa Fe. I don't know whether the car was loaded. The power - three locomotives - was on the front.
I suspect the train was headed to the Bakken Oil fields. Given the glut of oil that has hit the Gulf Coast refineries, I wondered how long it will be before the cars are loaded and head south again?
CShaveRRWe've been busy! It's our 47th wedding anniversary!
Congratulations Carl, you are one lucky man to have a wife that "allows" (ha) you to persue your hobbies and enjoys going with you. Of course Pat is lucky to have a husband that considers her when he takes her out on his trips. Like you, I have such a marrage and I have you beat with 60 years together. It is great to have a good mate.
Sound like a great and rewarding day.
Semper Vaporo But with the title of the thread having the subject to not talk about it like telling someone to not think of elephants... that will be all that they think about trying not to think about them.
But with the title of the thread having the subject to not talk about it like telling someone to not think of elephants... that will be all that they think about trying not to think about them.
It works! I thought about elephants. Wow, I don't see any epephants anymore. ((Not that I've seen any lately.)
Overmod You may note that Lohr was an alternative for a service like Expressway, but they used modified decked cars instead. That may show that when the actual numbers were run the advantages of the Lohr approach were less certain, or the consequences of difficulties harder to address.
You may note that Lohr was an alternative for a service like Expressway, but they used modified decked cars instead. That may show that when the actual numbers were run the advantages of the Lohr approach were less certain, or the consequences of difficulties harder to address.
It looks like the first Lohr operation in Europe started in 2003, wheras NYAB's Iron Highway was developed in the 1980s and was actively promoted to North American railroads.
CP started using the Iron Highway equipment in 1996. Did the Lohr equipment exist at that time, or was it still on the drawing board? Has there ever been any effort to promote it in North America? (not that the Class I's would listen right now). I would think it could be fairly easily modified to use the North American air brake system, but could other regulatory hurdles and certifications get in the way?
I'll concede that the Lohr equipment is more expensive, complex and most likely heavier than standard TOFC or Iron Highway flats. And the version currently in use in Europe requires unloading facilities similar to what Murphy described.
The modified version I am contemplating would require only a flat, level area beside the track, and though the fold-down ramps would add some extra weight to an already heavy car (by flatcar standards) I don't think that is a big issue on North American rail lines.
SD70DudeI would favour a modified Lohr system for easy loading/unloading instead.
Lohr is a nifty idea, but it involves a potload of expensive moving parts to get the job done, and there is still some alignment issue with getting the trailers into and out of the pockets or wells. Note that there were systems that did something very similar for kangaroo pockets on the 'outside' of spine flats like Fuel Foilers in the '70s, once you got around the issues with powering the bogie lifts semi-automatically (I proposed air-over-hydraulic with electric 'shore' option back in the day)
In my opinion Lohr could, and in a sense still can, provide a bridge service under the Hudson in off-peak slots -- now much fewer than they used to be but still present in late-night and early-morning hours -- to some dedicated transfer and 'inland port' facility, perhaps at that yard in the Queens area that FedEx was investigating for emergency-response equipment.
Murphy SidingWould it be feasible to run a track dropped below the level of a parking lot so that the top of the flat car carrying the TOFC would be at the same level as the parking lot?
That actually is a lot smarter than 'conventional wisdom' makes it out to be, especially if you have HPIT-like continuous-running-surface cars. The trick is to abandon the idea that circus-type loading and unloading are required or that specialized weird procedures like those for Flexi-Vans are needed, with special yard tractors run by specialized pilots.
Unloading can be handled by backing on at near right angle and leaving just enough room between parked trailers to angle them off; this is actually facilitated in gang unloading. The thing that has been added with 'autonomous' technology is the truck equivalent of parking assist: it is a cinch to back right to the kingpin engage in one pass and have the front wheels aligned for the subsequent pull.
Tight loading is a little less intuitive, but it involves the 'loading' tractors lined up, prestaged, on the opposite side; as trailers leave, the opposing combination pulls up 'across' the line of the train, momentarily drops and repositions the tractor as needed at near right angle, and uses differential braking on the trailer bogie wheels (installed to permit combination backing with terminal guidance) to swing the nose precisely in. Again, this would be Olympic-level coaching skill for drivers ... but easily provided in an intelligent vehicle. Note that there are no gaps, no fixed rails, no scuffable sidewalls, no Kangorou-style duals with running-rail surfaces ... and more to the point, no turntables, lifts, straddles, or other equipment trying to lift unreinforced vans off their implicit support points at kingpin and bogie attachment. (There are implicit benefits in being able to run an adjustable bogie back and forth a bit with power, but those will suggest themselves to you with a little reflection ... as will returning to load-cell or predetermined road balance when not loading or departing.)
You'll probably still want a 'fence' of some kind at the edge of the loading gage, so that bouncing tires don't put a trailer corner out far enough to start whacking against something. This may benefit from horizontal adjustment when folded up -- again, various solutions will suggest themselves.
In the near term, of course, specialized yard equipment would place and pick the vans -- using a hydraulic fifth wheel in typical fashion to get around dicking with the landing gear, and moving to an area where tractors can back on easily ... which might be only a few feet from the line of the track if swung back near-parallel after clearing the equipment.
zugmann BaltACD Do the 'cabooses' in your yard have all the required equipment in operating condition that are necessary for them to qualify as a caboose rather than a 'shoving platform' where all that required equipment have been removed from the cars. I'm pretty sure they're still classified as cabooses in the system. I don't know if they fit the contractual definition - if there's even a contractual definition in existence anymore. Lot of that stuff has been tossed over the years.
BaltACD Do the 'cabooses' in your yard have all the required equipment in operating condition that are necessary for them to qualify as a caboose rather than a 'shoving platform' where all that required equipment have been removed from the cars.
I'm pretty sure they're still classified as cabooses in the system.
I don't know if they fit the contractual definition - if there's even a contractual definition in existence anymore. Lot of that stuff has been tossed over the years.
Our contracts still have lots of outdated, by now practically irrelevant stuff.
The CTY contract (Conductors, Trainmen, Yardmen) still has two entire pages on cabooses, including what a pool/through operation one must be supplied with. It must have a hot plate, a insulated water container (with a spigot), a tea kettle, a coffee pot, a small saucepan, a frying pan (cast iron), three plates (non-metal), three cereal bowls (non-metal), three each knives, forks, teaspoons, tablespoons, one paring knife, one can opener, one dish pan, one dish mop, two blankets, and sufficient paper towels, laundry soap, and toilet soap.
The only cars we can be compelled to handle behind the caboose are flangers and official cars.
There are six pages on pay rates for passenger and mixed train crews. Baggage handlers get paid extra if they are required to handle Express or Her Majesty's Mail.
The Company is also still allowed to pick specific employees to run special passenger trains.
Engineers get paid an extra $1.00 for each steam generator equipped locomotive or car in their train.
Two Engineers are supposed to be called for an auxiliary train (wreck cleanup) if no Firemen are available.
This post could go on all day.....
You still need to deal with the gaps between cars. Even fold-down ramps (which used to be fairly common on TOFC flats) leave some gap. And there will always be a gap between the flatcar's edge and the loading dock, to allow for some oscilation while the rail equipment is moving.
I would favour a modified Lohr system for easy loading/unloading instead. I would add fold-down ramps and make the turning platforms pneumatically operated, with a backup hand crank in case the air motor failed (I'm not sure how they are powered now, I assumed it is some sort of hydraulic or electric system). This way the car could be loaded or unloaded anywhere, and either the train or truck's brake air supply could be used to power it.
The cars would be more expensive than standard TOFC flats, but terminal costs would be minimal. And no need for specialized trailers as in the Flexi-Van system, or extra strong (and heavy) trailers like Roadrailers or current TOFC-capable units.
https://lohr.fr/lohr-railway-system/
Wow! Carl, you and Pat had a great day!
As to roundhouses, I have been in one--the Burlington roundhouse in Aurora. On one of my trips to visit family in the South, I spent a night with my nephew and his wife who lived in Bolingbrook (both are now gone; Sue died five years ago and Frank died last year), and they took me out to Aurora to see the deserted roundhouse.
Well, this might be a good spot to share my experiences from yesterday: the "elephant" is mentioned from time to time, but for the most part it stayed out of the way.
This is yesterday's Facebook post, almost in full:
It's time to explain our silence so far today.
We've been busy! It's our 47th wedding anniversary!
It began fairly normally, with the exchange of cards, followed by our usual breakfast. Then we prepared and mailed packages at the post office.
Then off to Indiana! This was my idea, in hopes that we could take advantage of a little more open environment. As it turned out, that wasn't possible, or necessary.
Everyone who knows me knows why I like to go to the armpit of northwestern Indiana (no city singled out here...many could qualify!). It's because, in spite of all you read about Chicago being the railroad center of the country, the action is in Porter and Lake Counties of Indiana, and extending westward through the area SOUTH of Chicago. So I was looking forward to seeing action on the railroads that don't come to the western suburbs of Chicago.
Poor Pat, right? And on our anniversary, too...
Well, I asked her what she would like out of a trip like this. Her answer: she wanted to get food from Great Lakes Cafe, and she wanted to help me enjoy myself. If she'd wanted for any wee thing, she surely could have it, because she...But we didn't need to shop anywhere except at a hardware store (which we did, to her complete satisfaction...more on that later).
So, we went quickly into Indiana, and instead of getting off the highway where we usually do, I went north on Kennedy Avenue, past the headquarters building of the Indiana Harbor Belt Railroad. One of their lines parallels the road north of there, and there was a freight train sitting there. Lots of good information, which I gathered in two passes. After the second pass, we went past the old roundhouse (Pat hasn't seen too many actual roundhouses), and I tried to get close to some new Potash Corporation covered hoppers I'd seen in the distance. I settled for binocular confirmation of a number, and data supplied by one of my fellow freight-car freaks. He gets to claim the 300 new cars, which he's done already.
Then back to my usual route to the Great Lakes Cafe, where we surprised the owner (and her husband) by showing up. He thought we were going to rob the place, since we were masked. We went in and ordered, and the first thing the boss said was what a cute couple we made (we were coordinated in plaid flannel shirts). We bought a good meal (have we ever gotten anything else from there? I don't think so!), and when we went back to our car, it was surrounded by a half-dozen police cars, including a K9 unit! No, we'd done nothing wrong...they just know the best place in town to get breakfast or lunch!
On the way out of the place, we caught most of an eastbound CSX manifest train, and I gathered more data off him. Then we went east into the Miller section of Gary (used to be a separate city). We'd asked Cindy where her daughter lived (daughter and granddaughter haven't been working at the restaurant lately), so we thought we'd liven up their stay at home a bit. We didn't find their house right away, so we went east to Chesterton before trying again. On the way in, I saw my first-ever CSX freight train on the Porter Branch (they took that branch over from Conrail in 1999...yes, it's been that long since I've seen anything there).
At Chesterton, we got gas for $1.989. It really has been going up, and April 23 was the last time we'd gotten any gas at all (in Illinois, for about 15c less...they'd be well over two bucks by now). We also did some banking at the Chesterton branch of our bank (lobby was closed, but the drive-through was able to handle our fairly complex transfer request). While we were there we kept hearing train horns, and saw a westbound manifest on the CSX line from Grand Rapids (also rare these days!). Then, when we circled back to the main road and stopped at the park, a Norfolk Southern train--another manifest!--headed west.
Going back west along U.S. 12, I gathered data from the diagonal-steel cars I saw at Burns Harbor along the highway (the steel plates are too wide to be handled horizontally, and too tall to be handled vertically, so they have these supports built into the gondolas to help the loads fit within the clearance diagram).
We then went back into Miller, toward Marquette Park and Lake Michigan, finally locating (with the help of the phone) the home of Jessica and her family. As luck would have it, she and Gloria were out in the driveway, armed with chalk. We had a nice chat, and all exchanged air high-fives. They have a neat old house, only blocks away from a private beach on Lake Michigan.
Leaving there, we went back to U.S. 12. As we crossed over the CSX main line (former B&O), we saw the headlight of another CSX westbound, and it was another manifest. Pat couldn't believe my luck so far--nothing but mixed freight trains; no monotonous (to me) stack trains or other unit trains. She found me a spot where I could get up to a low trackside fence and see the car numbers over the fence.
As we returned to the highway, a South Shore passenger train was just departing the Miller station. We made it uneventfully through the rest of Gary, past the airport, and hit pay dirt near the western edge of the city--a CN manifest headed slowly into their yard. Pat quickly steered me into a road that went up to the tracks again and offered an unobstructed view. By the time the hind end passed us, he had slowed to a crawl, and I was still writing furiously.
Oh...the CSX tracks parallel CN's at this point, and while I was watching the CN train, an eastbound CSX stack train went by. With the CN train in my way, I couldn't have documented this stack train if I'd wanted to.
Just a side note...the eastern railroads were a lot slower to embrace distributed power than were the major western railroads, but every freight train I saw today had a DPU in the middle of the train (that includes the stack train). Surprisingly to me, the DP unit on the CN train was a BNSF locomotive.
At this point, Pat asked if I'd had enough yet...of course I hadn't. But she was anxious to get back home, so I decided to head south, without continuing my trip through the usual locations of East Chicago, Hammond, State Line, Hegewisch, Burnham, Dolton Junction, Riverdale, and Blue Island (all of which have potential for me, but none of which ever have guarantees). I'd also skipped over Pine Junction, which could well be the hottest of the hot spots around here. But Pat counted...I have 13 pages of notes from the trains and cars I did see! It might not be a record for me, but I think it was for a trip where she was along.
Before we went home, we stopped at our local hardware store, where Pat purchased several bolts to be ready when another one of the drawer one of the drawer handles strips the bolt that holds the knob...she wanted for those wee things, so she surely should have them! We took them home, and her fix works fine (might need a washer or two to compensate for the added length, but that knob will go nowhere!).
So I wrote about our anniversary, and she'll be happy to talk about it...it was the perfect day to go out into the world, and nobody caught the virus from us, due to our precautions. If I complain about my research workload in the next week or so, please remind me of what a happy camper I was to catch all of this today!
Convicted One Murphy Siding Those that can post pics of something, please do. Perhaps this might be a good time to renew our discussion of which Class-1s do the best jobs of maintaining their infrastructure?
Murphy Siding Those that can post pics of something, please do.
Perhaps this might be a good time to renew our discussion of which Class-1s do the best jobs of maintaining their infrastructure?
Do Conductors on NS get paid a Arbitrary for the times they 'operate without a caboose'?
At one time there was such a Arbitrary - to my knowledge that was negotiated away with the two man crew contracts that did away with the operation of genuine cabooses.
BaltACDDo the 'cabooses' in your yard have all the required equipment in operating condition that are necessary for them to qualify as a caboose rather than a 'shoving platform' where all that required equipment have been removed from the cars.
zugmann BaltACD Class 1's don't have any cabooses! Nothing to disenfect. So why do we have cabooses in my yard?
BaltACD Class 1's don't have any cabooses! Nothing to disenfect.
So why do we have cabooses in my yard?
Do the 'cabooses' in your yard have all the required equipment in operating condition that are necessary for them to qualify as a caboose rather than a 'shoving platform' where all that required equipment have been removed from the cars.
BaltACDClass 1's don't have any cabooses! Nothing to disenfect.
We have more restrictive rules for buffers for unit trains. In addition to the FRA requirements, buffer cars must weigh more than 45 tons, be over 41 feet long, but not longer than 70.
samfp1943 BaltACD Gramp The caboose would have to be disinfected first. (Sorry, just couldn't brake early enough to not pass the signal). To my knowledge there is no specific requirement for the buffer car(s). From a train handling view point the car(s) should be loaded. From a revenue view point, the carrier 'creating' the buffer car(s) will use cars that are young enough to be used in Interchange Service, but of such a nature that the owner is not using them in revenue service. Flatland operators with only head end power can get away with only using a buffer next to the head end power. If DPU or manned helpers are used the must be separated from the HAZMAT by a buffer. From my experience the buffer car(s) used for both ethanol and oil trains are covered hoppers that have been loaded with sand. Does not a locomotive being moved 'Dead in Tow' also class as a buffer? I've noticed that on occasion there have been tank cars moving in the 1st car position behind the head end power.. no way to determine if the power is dead or active...Sometimes with 2 units on the head you make the guess that the power is 'on' 'unoccupied'; no way to tell?
BaltACD Gramp The caboose would have to be disinfected first. (Sorry, just couldn't brake early enough to not pass the signal). To my knowledge there is no specific requirement for the buffer car(s). From a train handling view point the car(s) should be loaded. From a revenue view point, the carrier 'creating' the buffer car(s) will use cars that are young enough to be used in Interchange Service, but of such a nature that the owner is not using them in revenue service. Flatland operators with only head end power can get away with only using a buffer next to the head end power. If DPU or manned helpers are used the must be separated from the HAZMAT by a buffer. From my experience the buffer car(s) used for both ethanol and oil trains are covered hoppers that have been loaded with sand.
Gramp The caboose would have to be disinfected first. (Sorry, just couldn't brake early enough to not pass the signal).
(Sorry, just couldn't brake early enough to not pass the signal).
To my knowledge there is no specific requirement for the buffer car(s). From a train handling view point the car(s) should be loaded. From a revenue view point, the carrier 'creating' the buffer car(s) will use cars that are young enough to be used in Interchange Service, but of such a nature that the owner is not using them in revenue service.
Flatland operators with only head end power can get away with only using a buffer next to the head end power. If DPU or manned helpers are used the must be separated from the HAZMAT by a buffer.
From my experience the buffer car(s) used for both ethanol and oil trains are covered hoppers that have been loaded with sand.
Does not a locomotive being moved 'Dead in Tow' also class as a buffer? I've noticed that on occasion there have been tank cars moving in the 1st car position behind the head end power.. no way to determine if the power is dead or active...Sometimes with 2 units on the head you make the guess that the power is 'on' 'unoccupied'; no way to tell?
Locomotives in the engine consist do not constitute a buffer car. Not all commodities carried in tank cars are HAZMAT. You have to look for the Placard. No placard in the placard holder - the car does not contain HAZMAT. Tank cars that haul HAZMAT are required to have placards - both loaded and empty.
'Wipes' are probably optional for the train crews
Here a song pick: "Take the night train to Memphis'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsuVKhGnhiE
and for the 'miss a caboose crowd":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l442OKA9rw
Murphy Siding Semper Vaporo But with the title of the thread having the subject to not talk about it like telling someone to not think of elephants... that will be all that they think about trying not to think about them. So, I guess you should try to think about elephants on a train? Come to think of it, that beats thinking about snakes on a plane.
So, I guess you should try to think about elephants on a train? Come to think of it, that beats thinking about snakes on a plane.
Ringling Bros. stopped operating the Circus Train several years ago - so there are no longer any elephants on the train.
I'm with you Murph!
Wanna go for a ride on the "A" train?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb2w2m1JmCY
GrampThe caboose would have to be disinfected first. (Sorry, just couldn't brake early enough to not pass the signal).
Class 1's don't have any cabooses! Nothing to disenfect.
The caboose would have to be disinfected first. (Sorry, just couldn't brake early enough to not pass the signal).
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