Railfans detained for photographing trains on public property

[dehusman]

Halifaxcn :
I'm sure the police would tell you that what they did is in the spirit of the Preamble, since probably in their mind they were insuring "domestic tranquility" and "providing for the common defense". Bombs going off on trains (which the railroads do take seriously) would seem to be the things that would violate "domestic tranquility" and "common defense".

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Gabe-

I may have been too busy running trains, but perhaps I was fatigued, I seem to have missed an Amendment to the Constitution. I didn't know there was one that provided the people with the freedom to take photographs of whatever they choose, so long as it is from public property???

Last time I checked the First Amendment's application involved a lot of that messy balancing and forum stuff, and I'm not sure it applies anyhow...

LC

[halifaxcn]

Arggghhhhhh! I just want to scream!

Everyone is missing the point; this isn't about rail fans, public/private property, HS, terror or any other BS. Plain and simple it is about the decline of American society. The rail fans were reported by a person who thought they were suspicious. The person probably heard a ten second sound bite after Madrid and it stuck in his head. The gov't is telling you rat out anyone who looks or acts suspicious! Anybody remember the former Soviet Union? We are headed towards a police state and why.....because 90% of the United States population are Lemmings. They will follow one even to the death. Our gov't has changed none for the better since the late 1980's. Both parties are more interested in themselves then the country. Talk show hosts preach and rant their beliefs and people by in. What has really happened is that we do not know each other anymore. Do any of you know your neighbors? Could you ask them to watch your house when you are away? When was the last time you saw kids out playing after school in their neighborhoods, not a structured after school program. We go to work, come home and never talk to anyone anymore. The old neighborhoods, which I will bet at least 75% of you remember growing up, are gone. Everyone is suspicious of everyone else. Other cops on the list will tell you how many calls they go to about neighbor calling about neighbor. The plain un-varnished truth is that we are our own worst enemies. The country has gotten away from its founding principals and is now governed by the worship of the all mighty dollar. I have it and I don’t want you or anyone else to have anything!

Is this off topic? I don't think so. Before you jump on me about what I believe to be true, remember what it says in the preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establi***his Constitution for the United States of America.

Look into your mind and heart and tell me if you don’t believe to be true at least 50% of what I have said. This is what really happened on that station platform in Morton Grove, IL.

It is time to let our elected leaders know how messed this Country is thanks to their leadership, or lack of leadership. Or, do we just throw out this democracy that has worked for the 229 years?

This is my opinion and the freedom of free speech is still out there isn't it?

[tree68]

National paranoia over terrorism notwithstanding, we've had this sort of problem for years.

Just as with a number of professions, there are some cops who take themselves way too seriously. (Before you jump on my case about cops - my father and an uncle both wore badges.) An overzealous law enforcement official can really have an affect on your day, generally over something very petty. That we now have the terrorism factor just complicates the issue. Throw in the nervous-nelly man-on-the-street, and things get really interesting.

As long as we have human beings performing these functions (police, railfan, man-on-the-street) we're quite likely to run into conflicts of opinion, etc. As has been said by so many, it's "yes sir, no sir, I'm on my way." You can straighten them out later, with a phone call, a letter, or a lawsuit, as appropriate. Resorting to standing on your rights can have a negative effect on your being and possessions if you're dealing with a know-it-all who doesn't like to be challenged.

[cpbloom]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe


"If" the police violated a constitutional right, he can take the police to court and be compensated for the intrusion and prevent this—alleged—stuff from happening in the future.

That has ALWAYS been how our system of liberty works and until that isn’t allowed there has been no intrusion on our liberty.

Gabe

Maybe its just me but don't those 2 sentences say all that really need to be said[?]

[dehusman]

The one question that seems to be overlooked in all this discussion is were the railfans on PUBLIC property or were they on private property? Just because its a train station doesn't make it public property. And if they were on private property and the owner sez no pictures then the owner has the right to enforce that on his property.

The other thing that people don't know and will probably never know is what information was actually given to the police (what were they actually reported as having done) and what other activities may have been going on at the time.

Dave H.

[dwil89]

Nobody is becoming paranoid, and nobody is saying it is happening all over the place....The fact that it happened ANYWHERE in the U.S. is unacceptable. I would feel my rights are being threatened if I am being detained, my vehicle searched and a literal federal case made of it. If you were in the shoes of those railfans, I would like to know if you'd be content with being detained for an hour when it could have been resolved much sooner.or.....Oh. .there is no problem here...I will accept this it it means it will make things safer for us. There are better, less intrusive, more efficient ways of spending our tax money than chasing after people out enjoying their hobby. I darn well would not tolerate being made a guinea pig to test the Homeland Security System, and no innocent railfan should either! Dave Williams

[gabe]

Do your prefer "Conan the Libertarian" or "Libertarious Rex?"

"If" the police violated a constitutional right, he can take the police to court and be compensated for the intrusion and prevent this—alleged—stuff from happening in the future.

That has ALWAYS been how our system of liberty works and until that isn’t allowed there has been no intrusion on our liberty.

Gabe

[Valleyline]

Yesterday I was taking photos on the platform at New Haven, CT union station in plain view of several Metro North police officers. If there was some law prohibiting my photography one would think they would have at least talked to me. Recently, while taking some pictures on the Old Saybrook station platform I had a conversation with an Amtrak policeman about digital photography. He apparently saw nothing wrong with what I was doing. I think we jump to conclusions sometimes without knowing all the facts. The officer who detained the subject railfans may have had other suspicions about them and was just doing his job. Not too many police officers will waste their time hasseling people for no reason. Occasionally one will, but it's hardly a reason for becoming paranoid.

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by crazytechie

<quote>
What problem? You are obviously very concerned about a problem, and if you can point me to one, I would love to put an end to the problem. But, this "if there is a problem" stuff has me really puzzled.
</quote>


If you fear your society, it's your own fault that you have a society that causes you fear. Get over it or do something. Your choice.

The other point here is the fact that these things are happening without our knowledge.or much publicity in the mainstream media. We still live in a free society. In other countries, citizens that live(d )in a society that caused fear decided to do something about it. They ended up dead, shot,, etc, for protesting their gov't. As far as rights being taken away, how many people would realize what rights were taken away, or would care until it affected them personally? Where is it written in law that it is no longer legal to take pictures of Trains, Planes, etc.... We have been taught to obey law enforcement. If the railfans involved did so, they'd probably have no film from that day, and would be walking around no longer shooting trains, and the like. Instead, they asserted their Constitutional rights, and questioned the rationality of the 'train pics in public no longer legal' statement. How many other people would hae been intimidated by that, and took that information to heart? The point of the whole thread is to bring that incident to light and discuss why it happened, and how in a society as ours, it was allowed to happen, and to bring to light some of the absurd things that are being imposed on us in the name of security. Perhaps by discussing and bringing these incidents to light, it will make people angry and they will find out their congressman's voting record and then hold them accountable. It seems that most promises are broken anyway, so we can vote them out, get someone else in, based on his/her promises but they will end up voting the same way.As for the idea of givng up a right or two in the name of fighting terrorism, I for one am not going to willfully forfeit my rights that people died defending, to have US citizens harassed instead of going after the terrorists. Its better to say the sky is falling, and do something about it then, instead of waiting for it to fall and then look around and say...what happened? like what happened to our rights and freedoms? How did they do that while we weren't paying attention? Dave Williams

[Anonymous]

<quote>
What problem? You are obviously very concerned about a problem, and if you can point me to one, I would love to put an end to the problem. But, this "if there is a problem" stuff has me really puzzled.
</quote>

I repectfully submit that the problem (and simultaneously, the wonderful thing about our country) is the very fact that we're having this discussion. It's not that another railfan was detained, it's that all the rest of us now fear that WE will be detained. Think what a different discussion this would be if there was not the specter of HS and the Gestapo behind it. . . if we were discussing an isolated incident (which, I'm detecting from other posts, it's not) then there would be cause for the "what problem" attitude. And (IMHO) there would DEFINITELY be a problem if we were afraid to have this public discussion on the subject.

We're beginning to live in fear of our government society. THAT is the problem. The government that we supposedly elected. The society that we supposedly belong to. PEOPLE, if you don't like the way things are going, BEFREIND your neigbors, START going to the polls, and STOP voting for incumbents. (yeah, I know, it's always 'that other congressman' that's the problem, not the one WE vote for.) Vote NO on anything that isn't explained to your satisfaction in the fine print-- and don't take someone else's word for it unless you'd trust them with your life and $50,000 of your money in small bills.

Bulletin: there's better than 50% chance that any given one of your elected officials (or any given fellow citizen) went along with whatever stupid law you're complaining about. 'Going along with' includes anything other than a 'no' vote. Being absent or abstaining is a tacit vote for the majority, and (IMHO) shows a lack of character. Congress had to go along with the enactment of homeland security, compete with all the scary erosiion of individual freedoms. That means that better than 50% of your elected officials did not vote against it; and (at last check) there was NOT a 50% turn-over in the congress over the last few elections. Which tells me that more than 50% of people in this country view the loss of individual freedoms to be a lower cost to them than the *potential* for another terror attack. Generalizing a bit, that means that there's a better than 50% chance, that YOU, dear reader, are to blame for the fear we share of being detained or worse for the simple act of photography.

"But," you complain, "it was local law enforcement that detained these people." True. But elected officials set the tone of policy, which in turn sets the agenda for the guys and gals on the line. If the word comes down from on-high that hassling people openly standing in quasi-public places, making photographs of everyday objects is less of a priortity than helping/hassling/detaining/arresting/someone doing something else (like, say, using a Sharpie pen to sketch quasi-literate quasi-subversive quasi-art on the back of road signs-- also a 'artistic/collection' type 'hobby' performed in publicly-accessable places) then the guys/gals that actually do the enforcing/helping will react accordingly.

And, of course, you can help a little bit by explaining to bystanders what you're about. I'd MUCH rather be in the the "freindly, harmless crackpot" category than the "scary brazen stranger" column. The way to beat the "us vs. them" mentality is to be one of 'us' Simple, no?


The good news is that we're still free to criticize our government, (like we're doing here) and very few people 'disappear' for doing so. We have a long way to fall yet. But the only thing between us and that slippery slope is US.

If you fear your society, it's your own fault that you have a society that causes you fear. Get over it or do something. Your choice.

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSXrules4eva

OK arresting railfans is very S T U P I D!!!!!! I really don't understand why people think your a terrorist for taking pictures of trains. I mean COME ON?////////. . I just don't get it?/ Do the police honestly think us railfans our out there are going to plant C4s and stuff on the tracks and blow up railway equipment?? I don' think so. If anything we're trying to perserve railway equipment. many transit police should know this. If someone wanted to cause damage to the rail industry, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't involve taking pics of trains. MABE just mabe the people that harass us railfans should be brought up on charges of harassment.

Unfortunately, it appears that the perception in some law-enforcement circles, and the Homeland Security Dept, is that the only people that take pictures of trains are terrorists or people up to no good. Why would it take so long for these railfans to be let on their way...albeit with their info in the suspicion file of the gov't. Perhaps some complimentary subscriptions to Trains Magazine, and other Railfan Magazines need to be sent to some key people at Homeland Security, and Law enforcement to educate them on the Railfanning hobby. Based on what happened at the Metra Station, it is sorely needed. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[CSXrules4eva]

OK arresting railfans is very S T U P I D!!!!!! I really don't understand why people think your a terrorist for taking pictures of trains. I mean COME ON?////////. . I just don't get it?/ Do the police honestly think us railfans our out there are going to plant C4s and stuff on the tracks and blow up railway equipment?? I don' think so. If anything we're trying to perserve railway equipment. many transit police should know this. If someone wanted to cause damage to the rail industry, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't involve taking pics of trains. MABE just mabe the people that harass us railfans should be brought up on charges of harassment.

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

What problem? You are obviously very concerned about a problem, and if you can point me to one, I would love to put an end to the problem. But, this "if there is a problem" stuff has me really puzzled.


Gabe

The railfan at the top of the thread stated the problem. He and his fellow railfans were detained, his car searched, and had his ID entered into the Gov't database and was told that it was up to the gov't whether they would be released, or taken into Federal Custody....all for just taking some pictures of Trains. Then the Officer tells the Railfan that taking pictures of trains, bridges, aircraft, etc, from any public sidewalk etc.. is now illegal. If that is not a problem, then I guess I'm expecting too much of my rights and freedoms. A US citizen should not have to worry about being detained, or taken into custody for taking pictures of a train! This is not a Communist Country! I see quite a problem here. If our founding fathers had accepted the laws and rule of England, we'd be pledging Allegiance to the British Flag right now! If the railfan involved, gets detained again for the same reason and has to go to the Court System to rectify this, so be it. The bottom line is, you have to know your rights, because they could easily be threatened. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

Just because what happend on 9/11 justifices that the rest of us have to suffer the same fate? BULL S*IT! The Government should be trying to stop another terror attack(s) to the country to protect us but their to busy trying to take away our DAMN rights.

[gabe]

What problem? You are obviously very concerned about a problem, and if you can point me to one, I would love to put an end to the problem. But, this "if there is a problem" stuff has me really puzzled.

At no point in the past has an officer been allowed to do something not specifically provided for by the law and you have yet to point to an incident where that is not the case.

The fact that an officer occasionally strays from his enforcement of the law is nothing knew or really even newsworthy. Until there is a law passed that says an officer is allowed to go beyond the boundaries or a court says it will not enforce the law to correct an officer that goes beyond his boundaries, I don't see how the system is letting anyone down.

Gabe

[dwil89]

The point is...the government should not have to be reminded....I don't take very much comfort in these depts having to be reminded of our rights. I guess whenever I railfan in a 'touchy location' i will have to carry a pocket copy of the Constitution with me. Had these railfans not asserted their constitutional rights, their film might have been confiscated. The whole incident itself, based on it being accurate, is wrong. An officer telling a citizen that it is NO LONGER LEGAL to take pictures from public property should be an example itself. That is a violation of our rights. If that policeman told that to me, I would ask him exactly where it is written in law that this is the case. The whole incident should not have gone beyond a few minute conversation at the platform. A policeman, is also a law-enforcement officer. That does not mean that he has the power to enforce a law that does not exist! It sets a dangerous precedent! And if there, in fact is such a law in effect..shame on us that we are allowing laws like this to be passed without contesting them! If my Senator or Congressman were for such a Bill, I'd like to know. I would think that a law like this would need to go before the Senate and House and be signed by the President.The opposite of overreaction, is closing eyes and hoping the problem will take care of itself, or go away..or 'it won't happen to me" Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dwil89

Originally posted by gabe

.

It would be extreme folly to take this incident and assert all of these bad things will result. There are so many constitutional protections that stand in the way of some of the things that have been suggested. Gabe

Yes...and its interesting that an agency of our own government has to be reminded of the Constitution when they threaten to seize personal property. Dave Williams

Ah yes, but the important part of your statement is not that the government "has to be reminded;" the important part of your statement is that our government "has been reminded." Our system of government has always recognized that various parts of the government will attempt to seize power and our history is rife with such attempts that go far beyond interfering with rail fans.

However, the balances of our system are intact and functioning, and there is absolutely no evidence that they are not functioning. Give me a concrete example of the failure of a constitutional protection, and I am all ears. Absent such evidence, all I hear is "the sky is falling."

Gabe

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