Railfans detained for photographing trains on public property

[Anonymous]

Everything not prohibited is compulsory.
Everything not compulsory is prohibited.

War is Peace.
Freedom Is Slavery.
Ignorance Is Strength.

[Anonymous]

A lot of the time, cops and those that have been given way too much authority after 9/11 have nothing better to do than pu***heir weight around, and try to win brownie points from their supervisors by jumping on any little thing they see that they can claim "looked out of place". I for one agree with everyone else that before it's over, we're going to end up living in a police state where everything you do is watched and controlled, and being able to take pictures of trains or anything else will be outlawed-unless you have permission to do so...
9/11 opened the door and gave our government the power to do what it's been wanting to do for years-tighten up and control us in every way they can think of.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mriha2002

After all this discussion, have we resolved anything?

Well...........
Nobody hasn't posted since Jan 15.

[mriha2002]

After all this discussion, have we resolved anything?

[dwil89]

Now I've been told, that Platform is closed except for times when Amtrak Trains are arriving. There was an incident several months ago that was reported where an Amtrak Train stopped to load and unload passengers,at Johnstown and the agent never showed up, so the door that led down to the subway was locked and nobody at the time had a key. The passengers had to disembark at the next Station, I believe Altoona...don't remember if it was an Eastbound or Westbound train.. Needless to say, someone got an earful from that incident. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Modelcar]

...Boy, If I only would have known. In the past I have been up on the platform at the old Pennsysvania RR Station there in Johnstown taking pictures...of Amtak arriving and departing and even pointing the long lens at the incline for a shot or two...Never had any one question my actions there but I'm sure if the right people would have seen me I might of had.....One could get at that time a shot or two of the old Mill facilities up on there too...and at that time even some activity of the area of car building, etc...and maybe a line of brand new rail cars on a holding track just north of the platform. One time even caught them tearing down some old Blast Furnaces back in there....Pulling the structure down with heavy equipment....and did that ever make the dust and dirt when one of those big units fell...!

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Actually most model railroaders are "housefans" or at least "building fans". I have spent as many afternoons photographing buildings as trains. Since i don't model current operations, about the only thing i can photograph from the era I'm modeling is landscapes and buildings. Ironically some of my expeditions have been in Pennsylvania as mentioned above.

Dave H.

Good point...Model Railroaders would be interested in buildings and structures to give them ideas for their layout. I would find it quite interesting though if someone found my house worthy of duplicating on a layout. There are alot more interesting buildings to model than it. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

I have been watched, questioned, accused so on and so forth. My one friend calls me a "cop magnet".

We as railfans do something that some think warrants a stay in a mental institution.

I was in Hummellstown, PA one day when an officer pulled up and said he had a call that someone with a video camera was pointing it at his house. I told the officer that if he wished to review my tape, all he would see is trains.

He asked for my ID.

Turns out, he grew up in my home town, Johnstown, PA.

We had a nice chat.

One day at Mapletion Depot, PA a state cop who was trying to serve a warrant, stopped by where my friend and I were. We heard ballast cruching behind us, I turned, he asked, "Who is It?" I said, "State cop".

He almost fell out of his chair!

Turns out the cop had a friend who had the same hobby. He wanted to know why we did what we do.

At the end of it all, he discovered train engines have speed recorders. A bit of good info in case he was ever at another crossing accident.

What we do is sometimes very much unknown. Therefore, we are dangerous.

[dehusman]

Actually most model railroaders are "housefans" or at least "building fans". I have spent as many afternoons photographing buildings as trains. Since i don't model current operations, about the only thing i can photograph from the era I'm modeling is landscapes and buildings. Ironically some of my expeditions have been in Pennsylvania as mentioned above.

Dave H.

[dwil89]

Well as I said, I don't know that much about "Housefanning", and my house is nothing special in terms of architecture, so someone would have alot of explaining to do if they came onto my property and started snapping photos. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[citidude]

[dwil89]

Again, a hats off to those who brought the reaction of railfans to Metra's attention. This incident will serve as an example as how not to do it. Obviously, the police still need to be on alert , but will hopefully have a better understanding of the Railfan hobby. so that it will be less likely that someone out innocently taking pictures will have to go through what these railfans did. The voice of reason and sanity has prevailed here. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by halifaxcn

Great news! A big thank you to all in Chicago area who stood up and fought this matter. We are in your debt!
The pen is indeed mighter than the sword!

Win one for the good guys!

Goes to show that not "ALL" Railfan's are going to give up this "WOUNDERFULL" hobby,And also,some one needs to "TEACH" the Stupid Public that the Railfan is out there to enjoy His or Her Hobby and not worry about going to jail.
All I have to say is "Don't give you rights as a Railfan, Fight for what you know is your right".

[Anonymous]

Hello,

as an American,i feel as all of you do about the subject-
after 9/11, i recall Tom Brokaw said, this country will NEVER be the same....
i am not going to remake points that have already been stated.

does anyone agree the media is a HUGE contibutor to a certain
degree a paranoia? playing/showing a tape of a possible (suspected)
bin laden ' voice' without 'any verification' (well, even if it isn't actually HIM,
he was probably integral).. being the egomaniac that this dude
that doesn't even know what soap is, (but has access to the whole
array of technology) totally gets off on seeing the headlines on the
web, or ( watching it on his HDTV !) !!!!!!!!!!!
he was quoted once saying he wanted to turn America into a
"shadow of itself",,
Ollie North had warned he had met the "devil"...

paraphrasing Dennis Miller:
"i think we need to implement more robotics in warfare,
kids these days with their video games, and dexterity, -
put my 13 year old in a recliner, give him a pepsi and a bag
of dorritos, he could fly one of those remote control drones right
up bin laden's #%*!"

a final thought:
haven't been a huge George W. fan, but, we have not had any
'incidents' since 9/11-
keep taking pictures of an example of OUR America !!!

God Bless the U.S.!

driver8
on the BNSF mainline

[wcfan4ever]

It's great to see some railfans stick up for the themselves. I have heard so many stories before of this happening and nothing is ever done about it. They say they will stay away from the tracks now cause they dont want to get in trouble. Let this be a lesson to everyone. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT! As long as you are on public property (or station platform), feel free to take photos and watch trains. Don't be afraid. I've been talked to by the police more than once and that hasn't stopped me from being a railfan.

[halifaxcn]

Great news! A big thank you to all in Chicago area who stood up and fought this matter. We are in your debt!
The pen is indeed mighter than the sword!

Win one for the good guys!

[dwil89]

Very good! The simple act of bringing up the topic and debating it on a public forum, such as this, has opened some eyes here. Metra realized what a controversy this incident started and appears to be taking appropriate action. If the issue were not challenged, it would have been perceived as acceptable. That was the whole idea of the thread to begin with, to bring the issue to light, debate it, and hopefully have somebody in the position to rectify it, do so. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[kschmidt]

This was posted on the WisRails Yahoo Newsgroup. Apparently a follow-up to the Morton Grove Railfan Incident .

From: "Ray Weart" <wchogger@e...>
Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:18 pm
Subject: Metra Photography.

Guys,
By now we've all heard about and discussed the incident that happened at
Morton Grove, IL to Randy Olson and Paul Burgess while trying to
photograph the last two Metra F40C's in service from the Morton Grove
depot platform Saturday. I forwarded not only Randy's original posting
on the net about this, but my reply on the Illini List to a good friend
of mine who works for Metra in the mechanical department at Elgin, Mark
Llanuza, to see if he could get this resolved and to educate them to the
fact that we as fans of the Railroad are NOT going to go away and that
at some point, a point that was about to be reached much sooner then
Metra thought, legal action would be taken by fans who got wronged as
Randy and Paul did, legal action and headlines that Metra just does not
want. In other words, we need come to an understanding of some kind that
we do have a right to pursue our legal and harmless hobby from publicly
accessible areas and that there were some that were willing to take
action to get this accomplished.

Yesterday, Mark was involved in a meeting at Metra HQ with Executive
Director Mr. Philip Pagano, Director of Media Relations Judith A.
Pardononet and Metra Chief of Police Lenard, all of whom had seen
Randy's original posting, my reply to the Illini List plus a bunch of
the back and forth on the Illini List about this debacle. Believe it or
not, all our internet discussions, irritations, and fears got to very
high levels of Metra management and they were truly horrified that this
happened at all and would take steps to prevent an incident like this
from happening again. To quote Mark: "Judy had informed me that she had
sent a memo out to Chief Lenard outlining what the rules were with rail
photography this should be outlined in the Chicago Tribune in either
Thursday or Fridays paper. There is no problem with photographing
trains on Metra Platforms or photographing Metra trains on public
property just as long as you are not on the tracks or in their yards. If
you want to photograph the trains on the platform or trains coming by
the train stations then you are fine and she will outline that in the
memo going out today to the Metra police and Metra police will notify
the towns that they run their trains through." Metra, I found out from a
different friend, had indeed issued a request to the local on-line
police forces that anyone seen photographing Metra trains, stations,
signals, etc should be detained for Metra police to handle "On scene".
This practice is supposedly to come to an end. The police still have to
right to question you as before 09-11 but debacles like Morton Grove
should not happen again. The Morton Grove incident and the Metra "Stop
and Hold" order against photographers is a classic example of police
over reacting to our photographing trains in the 09-11 era due to
ignorance to the hobby and misinterpretation of new and existing laws.

Also to quote Mark Llanuza: "Metra is very sorry how this has been
handled and is going to make sure it does never happen again unless you
are trespassing on their tracks or yards." In the future if you want to
photograph trains and your not sure if you are legal or not you can call
the Metra Police at 312-322-2800 or Judith Pardonnet 312-322-6760.
Please use common sense if you do make these calls, you won't be given
permission to wander around the coach yards and engine shops in the City
to take pictures.

RW

Keith

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by morseman

SCANNERS
My wife and I and another couple will be travelling from Philly to Seattle
shortly on the Capitol and Empire Builder. Has anyone had trouble using a scanner on an Amtrak train?
Will I have to stay in the bedroom with the door closed and blinds down
I would like to join our group in the observsation car the odd time with my
scanner, obviously using earphones & not divulging anything I hear ?
I have had no problems in the past but don't know what the future holds.

I rode Amtrak in coach the last week of 2004, I used my scanner with earphones and my GPS for speed and location the whole trip without a problem. In the past when I've been in a sleeper and there is a delay or running slow the car attendant will ask me what is happening rather than trying to find the conductor.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by equinox

...if American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, then Fascism and Communism ... will grow in strength in our land.
- Franklin D. Roosevelt, 4 November, 1938

And that is the DAMN TRUTH.

[BNSFGP38]

Wow this was on a yahoo group..........so it must be true.[banghead]

1.) There is a big difference between being " detained" and being arrested.
2.) I doubt we are getting the straight skinny.

Without reading all the keyboard lawyer responses I will say this.

We are getting a story from the guy who has a negative slant on the issue, who is trying to plead a case to other railfans. Who knows if this guy has had previous run ins with the cops, was a nusicance, a safety issue, looks very much like someone that the cops are looking for or is doing something very suspicous.

Also, he was detained.......NOT arrested. Detainment is like saying derailment......its very non specific but can conjour up some negative images......even if it is just a single wheel off the track at 3 mph. "Detainment" in his eyes could be haveing to give his name and ID for a simple query check. Also, I doubt he was mr. sunshine to the cops. Why would he say in his story that he was a *** to the cops? I have a feeling that he probally talked his way to detainment if he had to goto the station.

Dunno.........I would declare the sky falling just yet chicken little.

[morseman]

SCANNERS
My wife and I and another couple will be travelling from Philly to Seattle
shortly on the Capitol and Empire Builder. Has anyone had trouble using a scanner on an Amtrak train?
Will I have to stay in the bedroom with the door closed and blinds down
I would like to join our group in the observsation car the odd time with my
scanner, obviously using earphones & not divulging anything I hear ?
I have had no problems in the past but don't know what the future holds.

To change the subject for a moment. I was told by a neighbour who came
back yto Canada from the States. They were stopped at the Border & said they didn't buy anything in the States. The officer asked to see the wife's shoes she bought. When they asked how the officer knew about the purchase. The officer said they had a record of any purchases a person makes on their credit cards. This was obtained by pressing a certain key of the Custom officer's computer !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

This still doesn't resolve the central problem I have observed over the past four years.... which is: What are Americans more willing to sacrifice, their rights or their lives?

Unreasonable search and seizure? Go to an airport. Since hijackings became popular in the 60's and 70's, you have been searched before you get on an airplane. Just by wandering into a secure area, you are searched. The searches were around long before Homeland Security, and people take them as part of the joy of travel.

Interesting quote of FDR's. During World War II, there were laws out regarding photography of "strategic installations". The saboteurs landed by Germany during the war had been trained to attack targets of "strategic importance"- including Horseshoe Curve in Altoona, PA. This got enforced by rationing things like film, cameras, and fuel. Lord alone knows how TRAINS magazine got published during the war years.

The vast majority of American people have made their decision by their vote: They want safety, and if it means a loss of convenience, or "rights", so be it. They don't want to be on planes that smack into tall buildings; they don't want to be on commuter trains that blow up; they don't want to drive on highways that might have a bomber or two getting ready to blow up a bridge out from under them.

The 9/11 Commission stated pretty clearly that there is no alternative in preventing a repetition of the attacks without increased searches and seizures. Keep in mind that none of the 18 hijackers violated any laws getting on board those airplanes. They might have been stopped if there was easy access to a watch list. They might have been stopped if their box cutters had been confiscated at the gate. The simple fact of the matter is that thousands- and at the holidays, hundreds of thousands- of people have to be searched, stopped, and inconvenienced by the actions of a few.

Americans have made their choice. They prefer being safe in their homes and in their modes of transportation over "certain inalienable rights".

I don't neccessarily agree with the laws, the searches, and the inconvenience, but my opinion doesn't matter. I still have to enforce the laws that are on the books. That what my county government pays me for, and that's what my commission states. How those laws are enforced, and the emphasis placed on enforcing them is a matter for the courts and the government- not the cop on the street.

Erik

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by equinox

...if American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, then Fascism and Communism ... will grow in strength in our land.
- Franklin D. Roosevelt, 4 November, 1938

Which direction is forward, and how did that "by peaceful means" work out?

[Anonymous]

...if American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, then Fascism and Communism ... will grow in strength in our land.
- Franklin D. Roosevelt, 4 November, 1938

[gabe]

P.S. I would urge everyone who feels the need to assert their constitutional rights to the officer on the scene to remember, most of the time, the officer is not trying to be a bad guy or violate your constitutional rights. And, this is not to suggest that an officer does not have a right to ask certain questions of you while you are there. In short, cooperate with the officer. Rights are enforced in courts, not on the street. You would only (greatly) be hindering yourself if you resist.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Gabe-

I may have been too busy running trains, but perhaps I was fatigued, I seem to have missed an Amendment to the Constitution. I didn't know there was one that provided the people with the freedom to take photographs of whatever they choose, so long as it is from public property???

Last time I checked the First Amendment's application involved a lot of that messy balancing and forum stuff, and I'm not sure it applies anyhow...

LC

LC,

Wrong Amendment.

I agree if you were to file your 42 U.S.C. section 1983 action under the First Amendment, you would not likely have a lot of luck--there wouldn't even be a balancing test you would be entitled to, as taking pictures wouldn’t even qualify as speech to begin with.

However, if you go down about four paragraphs in the Bill of Rights, there is this wonderful paragraph entitled “The Fourth Amendment,” which concerns illegal search and seizure. Seizing someone, forcing people to do something against their will on public property, etc. certainly constitutes a 4th Amendment seizure and can bring the full weight of the Constitution to bear on such a claim.

That is not to say a government could not pass a law restricting the photography of trains on public property. But, you would need such a law before you could enforce it. Also, if the property were your own or someone who explicitly authorized you to take pictures, I think the "takings" clause is triggered.

In short, yes, if an officer seizes you or your property while you are taking pictures of a train--and there is not a specific law authorizing the seizure (I know of no such law in most instances)--you can raise a pretty big stink that would really deter such conduct in the future.

I would finally note that criminal laws and statutes are construed strictly against the government. Thus, it would not be easy to pass a law forbidding the photography of trains, unless it just forbid the act altogether and everywhere. Not saying it couldn't be done, but it would be messy--and courts wouldn't like it to begin with.

Gabe

[Valleyline]

If someone walks onto your property without permission and starts taking pictures of your house, you can call the police and have him/her detained/arrested. If the same person takes the pictures from the street in front of your house, there's nothing you can do. Obviously, some commuter railroads have started to exercise these long established rights since the threat of terrorism became more than a threat. But these basic legal aspects concerning photography were long established before the Homeland Security Act was passed. Therefore, if one is on a station platform and there's a cop around it might be wise to ask him what the RR's policy is before he tells you.

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

The one question that seems to be overlooked in all this discussion is were the railfans on PUBLIC property or were they on private property? Just because its a train station doesn't make it public property. And if they were on private property and the owner sez no pictures then the owner has the right to enforce that on his property.

The other thing that people don't know and will probably never know is what information was actually given to the police (what were they actually reported as having done) and what other activities may have been going on at the time.

Dave H.

I touched upon the Private Property issue higher up in the thread, I asked if there were signs or policy posted at the Station forbidding photography. If so, and the railfans took pictures anyway, they should not have been surprised at a response. Its the reaction to it that was overblown....Did some panicky passenger call it in and embellished the actual scenario? Do the police and Homeland Security know about the railfanning hobby? Even if they don't, did it necessitate a 1 hour detention, and threats of future arrest for taking any pictures of trains..etc in public....it still does not set well with me, but I would be interested if there is any 'fallout' and change of policy because of this....I'd be very interested to hear what the outcome is, from this incident. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown