Railfans detained for photographing trains on public property

[dwil89]

Here is a link to a Railfan's detention by law enforcement. Once you read the account, you will probably wonder what things are coming to in the US. in the name of 'security" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/central_PA_railfan/message/6308 I think that some laws are being stepped on, based on that account. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

soon enough it's going to be illegal to even fart in public...what's next?!

[Anonymous]

The Patriot Act gone wrong again. Next we'll be ordered to turn in our model trains, and this simple post will probably get my name on the Joint Task Force list.

I believe the legal system is going to have alot of fun with incidents like this. It's time for law enforcement to get back to the basics and chasing railfans from public property vantage-points certainly is not one of those basics, and assuredly has nothing to do with fighting terrorism.

[dwil89]

Its not only the detention ,but the statement by the Police that the railfan is now forbidden from taking any photographs of trains from any public place! This is silly! A simple quick hello and brief conversation with the officer could have sized up the situation! If it was a older man or woman with their 7 year old grandson standing there taking pictures, would the reaction had been the same by the police? Oh..oh..its a terrorist using a little kid to do the dirtywork as a cover.....Get real!!! We are harassing our own citizens in the name of protecting ourselves rom Bin Laden. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[DPD1]

I don't like this kind of stuff any more then anybody else... But just to clarify... A train station isn't necessarily considered "public property".

But I guess the good news is... If this is all it takes to get on their "list", then nobody will have much to worry about, because half the people in the country will be on it at this rate.

Dave
-DPD Productions - Home of the TrainTenna RR Monitoring Antenna-
http://eje.railfan.net/dpdp/

[dwil89]

The other thing I wonder, is are there signs or written policy notices posted at that station forbidding photography? If the railfan was taking pictures in an area that was posted,' No photography" he would probably expect some sort of response, though not by several police cars.... Otherwise, what grounds did the police have to detain simply for someone standing on a platform taking pictures. How would anyone know by standing there that it was not allowed? Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

Oh boy, this kinda thing gives cops like me headaches.
First, the "source" of this account is the Internet. It's also a first person account. I have no way of determining whether this incident actually occurred or if it's the feverish product of someone's imagination. Given past experience trying to sift fact from hype on the Internet, I'll believe that something happened, but probably not quite in the way it's stated.

That being said, the subject of the article claimed he was taking pictures "on public property", specifically a METRA platform. Believe it or not, police officers are charged with the precise responsibility of enforcing laws on public property. The cop was doing his job. He probably could have been a lot more tactful.

I am personally not aware of any specific Federal laws prohibiting photography of "strategic installations and facilities", nor would I even try to enforce them. I have been trained, however, by Homeland Security and the JTTF to recognize and question suspicious activities that aren't criminal in nature. There are ways to request identification via my dispatchers from the JTTF on their watch lists. The response time could very well be slow... because most Federal agencies (INS, the FBI, and even the JTTF) don't respond very fast to local law enforcement.

The truth of the matter is that Homeland Security has had some successes in stopping threats by observant local law enforcement. Timothy McVeigh (who was the primary actor in the Murrah building bombing, Oklahoma City) was caught on a routine traffic stop. Another bomber was caught by a Customs officer in Washington state based solely on a "bad feeling" she had about the individual. And a third individual was caught on the New Jersey Turnpike carrying explosives in a routine traffic stop.

We as a people, routinely submit to search and seizures at airports; take a look at the signs conspicuously posted at your airport. Americans generally submit to those indignities simply because they don't want to get caught in an airplane traveling at 600 miles an hour plus aimed at a big building.

Similarly, I'd prefer not taking the 5:45AM to Penn Station if there's a good possibility that some nut- homegrown or representing a foreign agenda- is sticking a briefcase full of explosives on my train. All I need for proof of evil intent is a casual review of the Madrid bombing photos- or the attempted use of nerve agents on the Tokyo subway.

I'm sure that our correspondent had his feathers ruffled and missed his golden opportunity to catch that particular rascally locomotive. I'd rather have his feathers ruffled, frankly, than review videos of 18 hijackers casually walking through a checkpoint... or watching the collapse of another set of towers.

Erik

[Anonymous]

How do we know that peope with cell phone cameras aren't taking pictures of sensative instalations? Don't they just look like they're on the phone?
Mitch

[Anonymous]

I'll bet these guys started griping about the locomotive paint jobs, does it every time...

LC

[dwil89]

If the railfan's account is accurate, being told that he risks being arrested for taking any pictures of trains from a public place...being that his identity has now been entered into the gov'ts database...this is a major infringement. So, if this railfan is seen at a grade crossing somewhere else, and is stopped and ID'd by another officer, who pulls info up in Computer, which now shows the 'record' on this railfan.....there has to be some common sense used here.....A terrorist will not be so obvious, knowing we are on our guard....Maybe the local PD thought they had hit paydirt....must be operatives for Osama....Wow, we'll get publicity for nailing these guys!!! Hey Grandpa, can we go take pictures of trains today? Naw...we can't...someone might think we're up to no good and call the Police!" While these railfans were being questioned, a terrorist could have been riding the train..scoping out stops and stations, using a cellphone cam like an earlier post suggested, or driving or hiking in somewhere looking for a place to sabotage...as I said before....I think that the matter at the platform could have been cleared up alot quicker and with less fanfare than it was. And if the railfans did not quote their constitutional rights,against unlawful seizure, ther film would have likely been confiscated. Law enforcement should not have to be reminded of the Constitution. Dave Williams

[arbfbe]

If law enforcement members cannot discern railfans taking photos of trains then perhaps they need more training. Stating that taking such photos from public places is now unlawful is just flat out wrong. If they repeat it to themselves too many times then they will start to believe it. If there is some obscure edict from Homeland Security that indeed makes it illegal then it should be in the Congressional Record for all to see. Where did the authority to search the car in the parking lot come from? More than an hour with some regular law abiding citizens out doing a hobby practiced for over 100 years in this country to determine they are not a threat? Come on, what a waste of police resources. Now that these indiviuals are "in the system" what will the next report from the feds say, "These guys have been checked and they are OK", or "These suspects have been observed doing this behavior before and should be detained this time for further questioning"? I would suspect the latter. How many times do they have to be reported in this suspicious behavior before they make the 'No Fly' list?

It might be time to send along a contribution to the ACLU when I subscribe to my next railroad oriented magazine or buy a new lens. It looks like I may need both if I want to continue to actively practice my hobby. When will Homeland Security allow officers and agents to come to my house and sieze all my photos of stations, tunnels and bridges account these can be useful to terrorists bent on destruction? It sure sounds a lot like the days of the old USSR to me. The next thing you know AAA wil be branded a terrorist organization account they hand out detailed maps that terrorists could use to locate targets. You of course, will have your maps in the door pockets of your car confiscated if stopped and questioned.

Perhaps it is time to take up stamp collecting. Oops, no, I might be in contact with foreign agents and draw suspecian. Butterfly collecting might be OK unless you end up tresspassing on RR property to collect a speciman. How about nature photography away from tracks, tunnels and bridges?

How about a debate about Home Land security before the next Congressional appropriation? That didn't happen the first time and HSA has promulgated thousands of actions without debate since then. It is time to take our country back from the terrorists and the paranoia.

Alan

[MP57313]

Would any of this had played out differently if the railfans had Metra tickets in their posession? Then they would have been "waiting passengers" who were also photographing trains...

[Anonymous]

This incident is outrageous! Simply taking a picture of a commuter train is basically harmless. Although pictures of trains, railroad equipment, and other railroad related locations have been found in abandoned Al-Qaeda camps, it doesn't really mean anything anyways. The Internet yields thousands, perhaps millions of photos of trains and railroads; why would a terrorist go to the bother of taking the pictures himself, when he can get all the pictures he wants with a few clicks of the mouse on his PC!

[dwil89]

According to the Officer's account, I guess nobody should be caught taking pictures of the Golden Gate Bridge.....I guess if I am filming a train in Enola, Pa from the Railfan Bridge at the West End of the Yard, it would be illegal according to this account.... One, I am filming trains, and two, I am filming a bridge or overpass, as Interstate 81 would likely be in the shot looking into the yard.....It is lunacy....and a sad state of affairs if this is the direction America is heading.....doing all this is only shooting ourselves in the foot. Someone needs to look at procedures, and maybe become educated on the railfan, that the railfan is not the enemy! Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON! We have lost our freedom. Holy sweet God we Railfans are going to jail for just WATCHING TRAINS holy crap,What ever! Number one. Why should I give up my God given rights to the terrorists? Hell no. What where the words right out of President Bushes own MOUTH? He said plain as day.......Keep on doing your everyday activitys....Like helloooo.
Can we Railfans even file a lawsuit for failure of our violation of our rights?
I mean if we Railfans can't even go Railfanning then what the "HELL" are we saposed to do??? I swear to that this Country is going in the hole real fast and getting deeper every day.
THE TERRORISTS....WON! THE RAILFANS....LOST.
Im starting to agree with the GIRL who turned her back on the American Flag. I am doing the same until this Country starts to GROW UP! LEAVE US "RAILFANS" ALONE!

[jsoderq]

First, people need to calm down. The second thing is to know the applicable law for the situation. A railroad station platform is not public territory, it is private property and the laws define that as tresspassing. Amtrak has legally banned "railfans" from stations.
New Jersey Transit has declared it illegal to photograph their trains (may still be tested in court, but they've got better lawyers than I do ). Unfortunately, some "railfans" have caused problems, tresspassing, stealing, vandalizing equipment, etc causing many problems for the rest of us. Police have no way of knowing what your actual intent is, so let them do their job, treat them with respect and behave yourself.

[richardy]

I know many police officers and they are not very good at thinking outside the box, they really don't understand outside the box. I'm not talking about the officers on the forum that are also railfans. But I get to interact with many police officers on a daily basis that have college degrees and they would be the first ones to detain someone for taking pictures with a camera because they do not think outside the box.

They don't believe there is any legal activity that they don't already know about. I have talked to some of them a few times about railfanning and I get this deer in the headlights look, I try to inform them it's a hobby like golf, they can't believe anyone would waste time (their words, not mine) watching and taking pictures of trains unless a child is along. A child is the only thing that makes sense to them anything else must be illegal, the outside the box thing again.

I'm with everyone else while railfans are being detained, questioned and maybe arrested the terrorist has taken a picture with his cell phone, e-mailed it to headquarters and is on his way to the next picture. Maybe the police are standing next to him!

[ericsp]

If the account is true, then they should get a good lawyer and sue, I am sure there are plenty who would love to take this case. Then we can find out just what happened from the statements under oath.

[jeaton]

Maybe I am just dense or don't get it, but can anybody explain to me just how pictures of trains could help a terrorist plan some sort of attack?

Jay

[miniwyo]

Everybody is getting paranoid about Terrorists. Yes it is a threat but we know more about how they operate and we can better combat them. I believe that this man's problem is a first and fourth amendment issue. Did he give the police permission to search his vehicle? Or, did they see somthing suspicious that they thought it may be a Plain Sight acception? The police were just doing thier job but, i believe if this is true they may have taken it a step too far. Yes, i will give up a right here or ther to make us all asfe, but that is if it is reasonable. I WILL NOT give up my right to take pictures, enjoy my public land, and live my life top the fullest. The Declaration of independace states that we have "The right ot life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness". Yes, I am a flag waving redneck, that is becasue I believe in the right gaurenteed to us by our government.

[spbed]

I was "detained" at the diamond in West Colton CA while I was filming a WBer coming off the Cajon pass last Sept. The BNSF policeman said I was to close to the tracks & have to be at least 80' away. He took all my vitals & made me move back some from the tracks. Several days later I was back this time on the southside on the UPRR side & another BNSF rep told me to move as I was to close the track. So I told him I was now on UPRR property & see they are holding that westbounder down the road their so their is no danger to me since till he comes forward nobody else can use the track unless then wanted a head on collison. He told me it was his job but did not take my vitals. The interesting thing is their are many homeless living their & it does not seem they are bother by the police as one walked right near the policeman taking my vitals but was not stopped & allowed to continue on his way.

[lvt1000]

So where is enforcement at Tehachapi, Cajon, Sandpatch, Horseshoe Curve,Frankford Jct, Roosevelt Road and all the other numerous Railfan Haunts? Has anyone been detained/stopped/REALLY hassled at those locations? This paranoia seems to be a function of local conditions and local people. Minus the political and Bill of Rights rants why does this "phenomena" vary so greatly for fans. How about airplanes buffs? Do you get the bums rush for "shooting" planes?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lvt1000

So where is enforcement at Tehachapi, Cajon, Sandpatch, Horseshoe Curve,Frankford Jct, Roosevelt Road and all the other numerous Railfan Haunts? Has anyone been detained/stopped/REALLY hassled at those locations? This paranoia seems to be a function of local conditions and local people. Minus the political and Bill of Rights rants why does this "phenomena" vary so greatly for fans. How about airplanes buffs? Do you get the bums rush for "shooting" planes?

Oh no but we "RAILFANS" are the ones who get screwed all the time.

[overall]

A hypothetical situation;

Let us say that a railfan buys property with a house on it next to the METRA right of way. This is HIS private property now, not public property . Could police come on to his private property and stop him from photographing trains?

George

[Anonymous]

Can someone x-plain to me what the hell are we Railfans gona do if we "ARE" banned from taking Photo's or even shooting Video's of Trains? The day is if fast approaching where we wont be able to anything ever again.

[tree68]

"Paranoia strikes deep.
Into your life it will creep.
It starts when you're always afraid.
Step out of line, the man, he takes you a way."
- Buffalo Springfield.

[gabe]

I really like and respect all of you guys (and girls), but have you ever seen the cartoon where the wolf hits a chicken in the head with a peace of blue wood and instructs the chicken that the sky if falling, causing the chickens to run in a cave where the wolf eats them all?

If you want to, go into the cave with the wolf, but, really, the sky is not falling. The above incident (and most importantly, the details) is largely uncoroborated and is certainly not indicative of some kind of trend. Even if it were completely true, it would not be the first time an officer got a little zealous.

It would be extreme folly to take this incident and assert all of these bad things will result. There are so many constitutional protections that stand in the way of some of the things that have been suggested.

My Dad is coming to Indianaopolis this weekend and I am going to take him to go look at trains. I will let you know if I wind up in a box car with shackles on it for doing so--which according to the post was in Beach Grove, Ind.

Gabe

[dwil89]

Well, going back to the original points, assuming that the account by the railfan is accurate...1. Was the Station posted with signs saying no photography? 2. What was it that made the police feel they needed to search the vehicle? 3. What law or precedent was the officer using when he told the railfan that taking pictures of bridges, overpasses, aircraft, and railroads from even public property is now illegal? Is it illegal in his jurisdiction? Or are all us railfans, and tourists, birdwatchers that happen to get bridges, and overpasses in our shots breaking the law? I think not! I believe that Homeland Security needs to be educated on the Railfan Hobby, and how responsible railfans can be an asset, and should not be lumped in with the threats so that law enforcement is not wasting time chasing after photographers. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[shrek623]

The question I would like to ask is why were these cops there. I'm sure they weren't staking out the platform. My guess would be that someone else on the platform called the police and said they were being suspicious. I know on all of our METRA announcements that we tell people to look out for anything suspect. I'm thinking that somebody did not understand a RAILFAN'S reasoning for taking pictures and overreacted and called the police, who in turn called METRA, who in turn called JTTF, and from what it says it is the JTTF who is the one who was putting them in their database, not METRA. I think there is more to this whole story than any one person, even the one who got detained, knows about. Anyone?

Shrek

[StillGrande]

Somebody needs to tell Amtrack about the dangerous picture takers.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Copy/News_Release_Page&cid=1091820201814&c=am2Copy&ssid=181

Amtrak Trains Ready for Their Close-Up

Railroad seeks winning photo for 2005 wall calendar
WASHINGTON – Whether it's a sleek Acela Express running wind sprints on the Northeast Corridor or a majestic Superliner winding its way through a mountain pass, Amtrak trains are ready for their close-up!

For the second year, the railroad is encouraging passengers and rail fans to take their best shot at winning Amtrak's wall calendar photo contest, called "Picture Our Train."

A panel of judges will carefully review each entry and select one to be featured on the railroad's 2005 wall calendar, which is distributed widely throughout the Amtrak system and available for purchase online. In addition to bragging rights and a photo credit on the calendar, the first-prize winner will receive an Amtrak travel voucher valued at $1000. Four runners-up will receive travel vouchers of lesser amounts.

To enter, mail an original 8"x10" color photograph featuring an Amtrak train with the current Amtrak logo and livery (paint scheme) clearly visible to: Amtrak 2005 Wall Calendar Contest, 60 Massachusetts Ave. NE, Suite 4E-315, Washington, DC, 20002. Digital photographs will be considered, provided the resolution permits enlargement to poster size. All entries must be postmarked no later than July 30, 2004.

The contest is open to U.S. residents, 18 years of age or older, including most Amtrak employees. Detailed entry rules are available on Amtrak's Web site, www.amtrak.com.

SAFETY FIRST!

Amtrak reminds the public and especially those who may photograph a train to stay out of danger. It is very important to stay away from tracks, moving trains, yards, railroad structures (such as bridges, trestles, towers and wires) and the railroad right-of-way. Photographers must not trespass on railroad property or on private property adjacent to the railroad. Instead, stay in public access areas, such as stations, sidewalks or parking lots. All participants agree to assume the risk of harm and release Amtrak from all liability for personal injury and loss of property. Photographers are reminded that railroad tracks, trestles, yards and equipment are private property and that trespassers are subject to arrest and fines. Some stations served by Amtrak trains require advance permission for photography. Always obey all local rules and laws.