Regards - Steve
zugmann SD70Dude A penalty brake application also occurs when the alerter/RSC finishes counting down without being reset. It can also occur when any of the systems mentioned malfunctions, which is probably more common than actual unsafe events. Alerter, cab signal drop not acknowledged, PTC/LSL enforcement if it doesnt think you are slowing down enough (PTC can do an emergency application if it really freaks out), brake fault, probably some other things too.
SD70Dude A penalty brake application also occurs when the alerter/RSC finishes counting down without being reset. It can also occur when any of the systems mentioned malfunctions, which is probably more common than actual unsafe events.
Alerter, cab signal drop not acknowledged, PTC/LSL enforcement if it doesnt think you are slowing down enough (PTC can do an emergency application if it really freaks out), brake fault, probably some other things too.
The penalty brake application will also open the PCS, pneumatic control switch or power control switch-take your pick. This causes the engine to go to idle.
A penalty application is a full service application, not an emergency application. To recover, the automatic brake valve is placed in suppression.
When our ATC dropped to restricting above 40 mph, we have 6 seconds to go to suppression. Suppression also causes a full service application, but keeps the PCS from opening.
Jeff
I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that if your expenses are greater than your income, you are not really earning anything. This may be a semantics thing.
Johnny
Johnny: first question somebody has to ask is by whose definition? (AAR or FRA)...they are different and only AAR openly uses the term "regional"...FRA just uses "Class 2".....They get used for different purposes and calculations.
Non-railroad muggles (like somewhat civil engineers/ rubber-tired tribe) get all confuzzed with FRA Class of Track (49CFR213) vs FRA/STB size of Railroad (49CFR1201). Add-in the AAR classes/ size catagories and brain cells begin to self destruct spontaeniously (sp?).
zugmann steve-in-kville Are regional railroads and shortline the same thing? Will this work?
steve-in-kville Are regional railroads and shortline the same thing?
Will this work?
Semper VaporoThose revenue limits were invented by committee! And some of the members had an agenda!
Nothing happens in the human world without someone having an agenda!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Someone had to invent them.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Those revenue limits were invented by committee! And some of the members had an agenda!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
steve-in-kvilleAre regional railroads and shortline the same thing?
steve-in-kvilleSo I would imagine that shortline and regionals almost never order new locomotives since the Class 1's seem to have plenty of used machines for sale?
At well over a million a pop for new locos, and $100K for used (obviously generalities, but for now...), most short lines don't have the cash for a new loco, unless they've got some business that's going to generate sufficient income to pay for it.
Oftimes that's what you'll see happen on a regional - they get a new customer who justifies the expense, so they go for new.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
That is usually the case, though shortlines/ regionals do occasionally buy new locomotives:
https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/11/21-iowa-interstate-bolsters-locomotive-fleet
Shortline railroads used to have a limit of 400 miles in length. Regional railroads are anything that isn't a Class I railroad (not many of those left any more!) but are too big to be a shortline. The Wheeling & Lake Erie, Montana Rail Link, and Rapid City, Pierre & Eastern would be good examples of regional lines.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
SD70DudeA penalty brake application also occurs when the alerter/RSC finishes counting down without being reset. It can also occur when any of the systems mentioned malfunctions, which is probably more common than actual unsafe events.
SD70DudeNever knew you were a God. Just how does one wield that sort of power?
What's the difference between a dispatcher and God? God wishes he were a dispatcher.
Overmod steve-in-kville Why is a "penalty brake" called that? Does someone actually get in trouble? It's called that in ATS (automatic train stop) or ATC (automatic train control) because the system is designed to produce a full stop, sometimes followed by a consequence like a time delay or requiring the conductor to unlock the system, before the train can proceed. it would be possible to design a system either for train control or vigilance that automatically applies only proportional braking, from which the engineer could recover even after having failed to 'forestall' triggering a commanded brake application. Very few of the commercially-marketed systems worked that way. As the system only sets the brakes when some 'unsafe' action has occurred, you can bet there are "consequences" for having triggered it...
steve-in-kville Why is a "penalty brake" called that? Does someone actually get in trouble?
It's called that in ATS (automatic train stop) or ATC (automatic train control) because the system is designed to produce a full stop, sometimes followed by a consequence like a time delay or requiring the conductor to unlock the system, before the train can proceed.
it would be possible to design a system either for train control or vigilance that automatically applies only proportional braking, from which the engineer could recover even after having failed to 'forestall' triggering a commanded brake application. Very few of the commercially-marketed systems worked that way.
As the system only sets the brakes when some 'unsafe' action has occurred, you can bet there are "consequences" for having triggered it...
A penalty brake application also occurs when the alerter/RSC finishes counting down without being reset. It can also occur when any of the systems mentioned malfunctions, which is probably more common than actual unsafe events.
As for getting in trouble, your mileage will vary from railroad to railroad depending on how the locomotives and monitoring systems are set up, and on the individual manager who receives the message. CN's does not generate automatic tattling messages below 10 mph.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
zugmann the song of my people.
the song of my people.
Dah Doo Dee. Boop Boop. Warble Warble (but only if it went through).
Never knew you were a God. Just how does one wield that sort of power?
zugmann BaltACD CSX doesn't give Dispatchers Yard channels or MofW channels. That sucks. Sometimes I'd get bored in the afternoon when there was a lull, and listen in to the one yard channel when I knew their daily turn was building. It almost always needed the signal and permission to reverse to make their doubles. So I'd listen in and when I heard the engineer tell his conductor he would have to call the DS (me) for the signal - poof! It would pop up without him needing to play the song of my people. Always caught them a little off guard.
BaltACD CSX doesn't give Dispatchers Yard channels or MofW channels.
That sucks. Sometimes I'd get bored in the afternoon when there was a lull, and listen in to the one yard channel when I knew their daily turn was building. It almost always needed the signal and permission to reverse to make their doubles. So I'd listen in and when I heard the engineer tell his conductor he would have to call the DS (me) for the signal - poof! It would pop up without him needing to play the song of my people. Always caught them a little off guard.
BaltACDCSX doesn't give Dispatchers Yard channels or MofW channels.
zugmann BaltACD The Train Dispatcher will have access to the Road Channel for the subdivisions he operates (normally, those subdivisions will all have the same road channel). The Dispatcher will also have access to the Dispatcher's channel - he doesn't have access to the Yard Channel(s) or MofW Channel. Dispatcher frequently have trouble making contact with trains that are in Yard Limits as they may be monitoring the Yard Channel. When necessary, they may call the Yardmaster to have him contact the crew so they can converse with the Dispatcher. When I was a DS, we had access to a couple yard channels. We didn't usually monitor them, but crews could tone on them, and we could talk to them.
BaltACD The Train Dispatcher will have access to the Road Channel for the subdivisions he operates (normally, those subdivisions will all have the same road channel). The Dispatcher will also have access to the Dispatcher's channel - he doesn't have access to the Yard Channel(s) or MofW Channel. Dispatcher frequently have trouble making contact with trains that are in Yard Limits as they may be monitoring the Yard Channel. When necessary, they may call the Yardmaster to have him contact the crew so they can converse with the Dispatcher.
When I was a DS, we had access to a couple yard channels. We didn't usually monitor them, but crews could tone on them, and we could talk to them.
CSX doesn't give Dispatchers Yard channels or MofW channels.
BaltACDThe Train Dispatcher will have access to the Road Channel for the subdivisions he operates (normally, those subdivisions will all have the same road channel). The Dispatcher will also have access to the Dispatcher's channel - he doesn't have access to the Yard Channel(s) or MofW Channel. Dispatcher frequently have trouble making contact with trains that are in Yard Limits as they may be monitoring the Yard Channel. When necessary, they may call the Yardmaster to have him contact the crew so they can converse with the Dispatcher.
BaltACDField radios have access to the full spectrum of FRA authorized radio channels. Radios on locomotives get used all across all the railroads in the country and need to be able to conduct business on the proper channels that are in effect on the particular carrier and location where they are at any moment in time.
Especially on short lines, the radios may have specific, commonly used channels programmed into the radio. So you may hear "go to channel 2" versus the actual AAR channel.
We have five "channels" we regularly use - two of our own for road and yard, one that keys our repeater, one for the shortline we run on, and one for their repeater. They also have another channel available - we rarely use it, and few of our radios have it programmed.
Many is the time, when listening to CSX, that I"ve heard the DS say "go over to 49" (or whatever the DS channel is), referring to AAR channel 49.
Hand-held (portable) radios generally are programmed for the required local frequencies. They aren't as likely to roam the system as the locomotives.
I've heard it suggested that railfans who travel a lot program all of the AAR frequencies into their scanner. There are now almost 200 AAR frequencies since narrowbanding occurred.
tree68 steve-in-kville From what I can gather, the Reading yards are still in Harrisburg East's territory, but there is a separate radio channel for the yard, which makes sense. Both East Penn and Reading & Northern tie in at that yard as well. Not sure what channel they would use. That would depend on the arrangement there. If each has their own portion of the yard (one or two tracks where they interchange, f'rinstance), they may just stay on their own channel(s). If they need to interface with the yardmaster, they'll probably go over to that channel. At Utica, NY, f'rinstance (CSX & MA&N), CSX stays on their road channel when they make pick-ups and drops on the interchange tracks, even though they are in the MA&N yard at the time (although the interchange tracks may technically be CSX's anyhow). When MA&N is working those tracks, they're on their own channel. MA&N has trackage rights Utica to Rome, and goes to the CSX road channel when on CSX. Once clear of CSX, they're back on their own channel. Another case of "it depends."
steve-in-kville From what I can gather, the Reading yards are still in Harrisburg East's territory, but there is a separate radio channel for the yard, which makes sense. Both East Penn and Reading & Northern tie in at that yard as well. Not sure what channel they would use.
That would depend on the arrangement there.
If each has their own portion of the yard (one or two tracks where they interchange, f'rinstance), they may just stay on their own channel(s).
If they need to interface with the yardmaster, they'll probably go over to that channel.
At Utica, NY, f'rinstance (CSX & MA&N), CSX stays on their road channel when they make pick-ups and drops on the interchange tracks, even though they are in the MA&N yard at the time (although the interchange tracks may technically be CSX's anyhow). When MA&N is working those tracks, they're on their own channel.
MA&N has trackage rights Utica to Rome, and goes to the CSX road channel when on CSX. Once clear of CSX, they're back on their own channel.
Another case of "it depends."
Field radios have access to the full spectrum of FRA authorized radio channels. Radios on locomotives get used all across all the railroads in the country and need to be able to conduct business on the proper channels that are in effect on the particular carrier and location where they are at any moment in time.
Fixed location radios have their access limited to the channels that are appropriate to the specific location. If there is a Yardmaster with a radio, the channels available to him will most likely be limited to the Road Channel on the subdivision and the Yard Channel assigned to his yard. He will not have access to the Dispatcher's Channel nor will he have access to the MofW Channel.
The Train Dispatcher will have access to the Road Channel for the subdivisions he operates (normally, those subdivisions will all have the same road channel). The Dispatcher will also have access to the Dispatcher's channel - he doesn't have access to the Yard Channel(s) or MofW Channel. Dispatcher frequently have trouble making contact with trains that are in Yard Limits as they may be monitoring the Yard Channel. When necessary, they may call the Yardmaster to have him contact the crew so they can converse with the Dispatcher.
Everybody on a segment of railroad will have access to the Road Channel for that segment of the road. When it is necessary employees of to contact each other, the initial contact is initiated over the Road Channel, if the conversation will be about 'involved' issues or Mandatory Directives the parties will take their conversation one of the 'special' channels - Dispatcher, Yard or MofW. The Road Channel is a party line for all employees, the 'special' channels are semi-private conversation spaces.
Needless to say, different railroads occupying the same geographical area will each have their own series of radio channels so that each railroad can conduct its business without getting trampled by the other railroads.
In the Baltimore area you have CSX, NS, Amtrak, the Canton RR, and Tradepoint Rail all operate on the airwaves with their radios.
steve-in-kvilleFrom what I can gather, the Reading yards are still in Harrisburg East's territory, but there is a separate radio channel for the yard, which makes sense. Both East Penn and Reading & Northern tie in at that yard as well. Not sure what channel they would use.
steve-in-kvilleSo where does one dispatcher end and the other begin? If a train is eastbound between Harrisburg and Reading, at what point does the Harrisburg East dispatcher stop and whoever runs the Reading yard begin?
I don't know the NS territory.
On CSX Dispatcher's territories begin and end at designated Control Points that are identified in the ETT. A individual Control Point 'belongs' to one Dispatcher and one Dispatcher alone. Adjoining Dispatchers communicate among themselves as to what track(s) train(s) should be operated on or if a train should be held back from the designated Control Point for some reason. The Dispatcher's will provide switch and signal blocking for each other when necessary for the safety of Signal or MofW personnel as required by the rules.
Someone familiar with the line will have to answer that, unless you can find a recent copy of the Employee Time Table.
That you mention "yard" might be important, as a DS may control the main through the yard, while the yard has its own dispatcher or equivalent. I believe that's how the IM yard at North Baltimore (CSX) works.
Overmod tree68 There used to be an ATCS group on Yahoo, but I believe that has moved elsewhere. ATCS Monitor on groups.io
tree68 There used to be an ATCS group on Yahoo, but I believe that has moved elsewhere.
ATCS Monitor on groups.io
Thats what I did. I had to watch a few youtube videos to get my downloads to work right, and even after that I had to change some stuff.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.