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Rookie Railfan Questions 2.0

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, March 23, 2020 1:27 AM

steve-in-kville
Here's another: How close to the W sign are the sensors to drop the crossbucks?
 

Couldn't tell you.  Our whistle posts use an X.  W for us means workmen present.

Most of our whistle posts are about 1200 ft from the crossing.  There are a few leftover from when they ran passenger trains 90mph.  The circuits are a lot farther out then that.

We have a rule, as I suppose others do too, that when starting movement within 3000 ft of a crossing speed must not be increased over 5 mph until it's seen the crossing signals have activated and gates (if equipped) are fully lowered.

Jeff

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Posted by rdamon on Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:35 PM

Good References:

Introduction to Railroad Signaling and Grade Crossing Operations

http://shrp2.transportation.org/Documents/Renewal/Webinar-Rail-Signaling%20and%20Grade%20Crossings%2010.18.18.pdf

There was a great site with a lot of info that I cannot find ..will keep looking

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, March 22, 2020 4:08 PM

Semper Vaporo
What triggers the circuit to turn on the lights and lower the gates is how fast that current increases as a train approaches.  The faster the train the faster the current goes up and the sooner the gates will come down.  When the current flow returns to the previous state the gates are raised and the lights turned off.  Or if the current stops changing (the trains stops before reaching the crossing) the same thing can happen.  But, it can also sense when the train is in the crossing so that it will not release the gates and shut off the lights if the train stops but is still blocking the crossing.

That describes the "predictive" circuits.

With a fixed circuit, it's a matter of whether a train is shunting the circuit.  A train standing still on the "approach" circuit will cause the gates to stay down.  

The gates will only rise if the activation is over-ridden (a button, usually in a locked box on the signal shelter) or it the circuit is jumpered out, OR, the train goes through the logic of the crossing properly.  If that's the case, the gates will rise once the train clears the island circuit (the crossing itself).

 

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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Sunday, March 22, 2020 3:11 PM

 

It is not always a matter of a “sensor” some distance from the crossing. 

 

If it were just a sensor at some distance a fast train would arrive that the crossing sooner than a slow one.  Motorists don’t really know how fast the train is moving and so they would be frustrated with gates that drop too long before a skow train gets there or might get killed if the gates didn’t drop soon enough before a fast train got there.

 

The crossing lights/gates are controlled by a circuit in the little bungalow near the crossing.  It is measuring the current flow between the rails.  Sometimes there will be a “shunt” across the rails at some distance from the crossing and it can be at various distances from the crossing, depending on what other sensor circuits are in the vicinity; other crossings, crossovers, switches to spurs and other tracks, diamonds (crossings with other RRs), etc.  The shunt might be up to or beyond a mile away, or there may be no shunt specific for that circuit.

 

The circuitry is measuring the current flow from one rail to the other.  This current depends on the resistive value of the rails, the shunt (if present) and the leakage of current through the ground, which will vary with humidity and other factors of nature.  It also varies as to any trains in the area and how many axles it has shorting out the rails, and how dirty (leaves, mud, rust, etc.) the rails and or wheels are.

 

What triggers the circuit to turn on the lights and lower the gates is how fast that current increases as a train approaches.  The faster the train the faster the current goes up and the sooner the gates will come down.  When the current flow returns to the previous state the gates are raised and the lights turned off.  Or if the current stops changing (the trains stops before reaching the crossing) the same thing can happen.  But, it can also sense when the train is in the crossing so that it will not release the gates and shut off the lights if the train stops but is still blocking the crossing.

 

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, March 22, 2020 2:47 PM

The gates are supposed to be activated 15-20 seconds before the train arrives at the crossing.  How far out the train is for that to happen is dependent on track speed.

For hard-wired crossings, that's where the gap will be.  The W sign may not be at the same point for high-speed crossings, as the horn is only to be sounded at a quarter mile from the crossing in those cases.

Predictive circuits use doppler via the rails to determine the approach speed and activate the lights and gates at the appropriate distance/time.  In this case, the W sign will again be set based on maximum track speed.

In either case, it's up to the engineer to ensure proper horn warning.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, March 22, 2020 2:36 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

When you consider that the consignee is usually a lumber yard, I'm surprised that tipping doesn't occur more frequently.  I've rarely seen lumber yards with a lot of open space on each side of the track.

 

Lumber guy here. We unload a unit from the north side, a unit from the south side, etc. If you unload a whole row on one side the car will usually have a noticable tilt to it. It also makes it more difficult to unload the opposite side as the units are tilting down a little bit.

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Posted by steve-in-kville on Sunday, March 22, 2020 2:06 PM
Here's another: How close to the W sign are the sensors to drop the crossbucks?

Regards - Steve

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, March 21, 2020 3:39 PM

SD70Dude
Even those with all-steel wheels and axles do not always reliably activate the signal system, I suspect due to some combination of the smaller number of axles and lighter weight compared to a locomotive or railcar.

Since we don't run in the winter, we start out each season with instructions to approach each signalled crossing prepared to stop, account rusty rails.  

Hi-railers generally stop at every crossing, and have exclusive occupancy of a block by warrant/EC1/Form D, or whatever mechanism that railroad uses.  You may find hi-railers following a train, but you'll virtually never see on preceeding a train.

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Posted by ChuckCobleigh on Saturday, March 21, 2020 2:59 PM

steve-in-kville
I had seen a hi-rail maintenance truck on the main line yesterday. But for some reason it did not trigger the block lights or the crossbucks? Any idea why?
 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, March 20, 2020 5:55 PM

Hi-Rails and other maintenance equipment may have insulated wheels, so do not activate track circuits.  Even those with all-steel wheels and axles do not always reliably activate the signal system, I suspect due to some combination of the smaller number of axles and lighter weight compared to a locomotive or railcar.

Here's a incident report from a crash involving a train and a hi-rail.  The hi-rail had proceeded outside its working limits, and the train crew was proceeding on permissive signal indications:

https://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2016/r16h0024/r16h0024.html

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, March 20, 2020 5:51 PM

steve-in-kville
I had seen a hi-rail maintenance truck on the main line yesterday. But for some reason it did not trigger the block lights or the crossbucks? Any idea why?

The wheels are insulated.

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Posted by steve-in-kville on Friday, March 20, 2020 5:23 PM
I had seen a hi-rail maintenance truck on the main line yesterday. But for some reason it did not trigger the block lights or the crossbucks? Any idea why?

Regards - Steve

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, March 7, 2020 3:08 PM

tree68
I'm pretty sure I've mentioned seeing, years ago, lumber being unloaded from a boxcar, board by board, running down a roller tray into the lumber shed...

More years ago than I can remember without nostalgia, when the Erie Northern Branch still ran to Sparkill and Nyack and perhaps much further, there was a straddle loader stationed at the far end of the team tracks north of Tenafly station.  This would regularly pick up loads of lumber for Benjamin Bros. right off the flatcar and then take them up the street to the yard.  There was probably a lot of suburban building going on in those years!

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, March 7, 2020 2:48 PM

That second one is for 'Olympic/Paralympic wheelchair race route crossing'.

Before the advent of the ADA, I think the 'usual' meaning of the sign would have been to indicate wheelchair-accessible restrooms.  Not too much else was provided free then...

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Saturday, March 7, 2020 2:03 PM

   More active?  My first thought was that he was falling out of the wheelchair.  Come to think of it, that is more active than sitting.

   When I first saw that wheelchair figure on highway signs ( the original one), I thought it indicated restrooms.

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, March 7, 2020 1:30 PM

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned seeing, years ago, lumber being unloaded from a boxcar, board by board, running down a roller tray into the lumber shed...  Talk about manpower intensive.

Re:  Pictograms.  There are now two handicapped pictograms in circulation.  The one with the individual seated upright is still the officially recognized version.  The second depicts a more active individual.  Only two states have made that one official.  The international version is still the first version.

 

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, March 7, 2020 12:26 PM

Deggesty
Quite interesting, Paul. The only warning I have read indicated that no more than two layers should loaded or unloaded before moving to the other side and, again, moving no more than two layers past leaving/adding and then moving to the other side. That is, no more than a two layer imbalance...

That's a practical interpretation of what Paul's warning says.  

If we were to 'literally' follow what that warning calls for, we'd need coordinated lifts from both sides of the car at once, I might add starting alternately from the ends toward the middle in a coherent pattern, so that the added weight is 'exactly' balanced side-to-side at any point.  My opinion is that this is lawyer CYA; you can't argue in court with what the 'manufacturer' or 'owner' has said about keeping the balance exact, exact, exact even if in 'practice' that's functionally ignored...

I'd note that with palleted loads the 'two-layer' weight might be greatly exceeded modularly, to the point where you well might want to alternate 'sides' even piece by piece.  Especially if the side-bearing clearance is excessive, or the truck springing compromised, or the track 'soft' or inclining to one side...

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, March 7, 2020 11:41 AM

Quite interesting, Paul. The only warning I have read indicated that no more than two layers should loaded or unloaded before moving to the other side and, again, moving no more than two layers past leaving/adding and then moving to the other side. That is, no more than a two layer imbalance..

Johnny

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, March 6, 2020 8:58 PM

Link to one of the center beam warnings (3rd photo): 

http://www.trainweb.org/mccloudrails/Equipment/Centerbeams.html 

I did find some others - one had some profane graffiti added - but I can't locate them now.

- PDN. 

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Posted by mudchicken on Friday, March 6, 2020 5:43 PM

Add the Volkswagen Fahrvergnügen ( promo stick-guy) and the Nine-Inch Nails logo wFahrvergnügen Sticker...and then

Overmod

 

 
MikeInPlano
Not sure I get the reason for this link...

 

It's humor.  If the flat, outline plug-door guy is related to the flat, outline guy running away from tipover, why can't they also be related to the flat, outline mudflap girl?

Note I didn't bring up their urban relatives from Haring and Harald.

 

With the meat cleaver to the list.... and then there are all the anglisized take-offs on that theme

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Overmod on Friday, March 6, 2020 4:25 PM

MikeInPlano
Not sure I get the reason for this link...

It's humor.  If the flat, outline plug-door guy is related to the flat, outline guy running away from tipover, why can't they also be related to the flat, outline mudflap girl?

Note I didn't bring up their urban relatives from Haring and Harald.

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Posted by MikeInPlano on Friday, March 6, 2020 1:19 PM

Overmod

 

 Not sure I get the reason for this link...
zugmann
He's related to the guy that always has the plug door falling on his head.

 

I like their far more attractive second cousin much more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wObd5GI-qGk

 

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:37 AM

zugmann
He's related to the guy that always has the plug door falling on his head.

I like their far more attractive second cousin much more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wObd5GI-qGk

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 8:04 AM

jeffhergert
Love the stencil of the little stick figure running from a turning over center beam on the inside of the end bulkhead.  Some even have added "speed indicating" lines behind the running figure.  

He's related to the guy that always has the plug door falling on his head. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Tuesday, March 3, 2020 8:53 PM

jeffhergert
Love the stencil of the little stick figure running from a turning over center beam on the inside of the end bulkhead.  Some even have added "speed indicating" lines behind the running figure.  

Jeff 

When my daughter was young she used to like to look for those and laugh at the different ones.  Someplace I have a small collection of photos of them.  Something to look for when they're passing at a slow to moderate speed.

- PDN.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, March 3, 2020 10:16 AM

tree68

 

 
Deggesty

I wonder how often the load/unloading instructions are ignored. 

 

 

Probably only once by any given person/crew...

I wonder, though, if anyone has come up with the expedient of placing jacks under the corners of the cars to reduce/eliminate the tipping.  

 

Yes, one time, whether loading ot unloading, should be enough to make the instructions quite clear. All the loads that I have seen were worked with a forklift, which might caught in the spill when loading.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, March 3, 2020 10:15 AM

When you consider that the consignee is usually a lumber yard, I'm surprised that tipping doesn't occur more frequently.  I've rarely seen lumber yards with a lot of open space on each side of the track.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, March 3, 2020 7:59 AM

Deggesty

I wonder how often the load/unloading instructions are ignored. 

Probably only once by any given person/crew...

I wonder, though, if anyone has come up with the expedient of placing jacks under the corners of the cars to reduce/eliminate the tipping.  

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, March 3, 2020 7:46 AM

I wonder how often the load/unloading instructions are ignored.

Johnny

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, March 2, 2020 7:48 PM

Deggesty

 

 
CShaveRR

The Centerbeam flat cars are notoriously top-heavy--they don't have thick underframes down below floor level.  I nearly had a passed-drawbar incident while working that would have fipped about a half-dozen of them on the yard lead...fortunately, I could grab the loads in the retarder, let the centerbeams right themselves and roll, then it could be fixed the right way with a locomotive making the joints.

 

 

 

I have not seen many centerbram cars up slose, but I am sure that if you examine one carefully, you will see instructions for loading and unloading--you do not fill one side and then fill the other; you balance the overall load as much as is possible--some on one side, as much on the other side plus as much, back to the first side and add more, back to the second side.... Unloading is done in reverse--some off, change sides....

 

 

Love the stencil of the little stick figure running from a turning over center beam on the inside of the end bulkhead.  Some even have added "speed indicating" lines behind the running figure.  

Jeff 

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