I can't answer either question. But as for the empty flats followed by loads, I wonder if this practice is okay on stretches of railroad without any significantly tight surves. ??
NS encountered that very stringlining problem - twice, I believe - at Horse Shoe Curve.
Trains did an article on it recently.
Pending something more authoritative, I'm with LO - at least part of the consideration would be the profile.
Amongst the various considerations, too, has to do with pre-blocking. Arranging a train so that blocks can be dropped at various points (and picked up, for that matter) certainly complicates the issue, at that means that loads and empties necessarily are scattered throughout the train.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68NS encountered that very stringlining problem - twice, I believe - at Horse Shoe Curve. Trains did an article on it recently. Pending something more authoritative, I'm with LO - at least part of the consideration would be the profile. Amongst the various considerations, too, has to do with pre-blocking. Arranging a train so that blocks can be dropped at various points (and picked up, for that matter) certainly complicates the issue, at that means that loads and empties necessarily are scattered throughout the train.
The problem that affects center beam and other LIGHT, LONG, EMPTY cars is TRAILING TONNAGE on grades with curvature.
Baltimore Division CSX Timetable Empty Car Placement Instructions for Trains Empty cars 80 feet and longer must be placed in the train in such a location that the trailing tonnage behind these empty cars does not exceed the amount listed below. In territory where helper locomotives are used on the rear of the train, their tonnage rating should be subtracted to the trailing tonnage listed below when determining the location for the restricted car(s): Between Direction Tonnage Hyndman & Sand PatchWestward 4,750 Connellsville & SandPatchEastward 8,500 Connellsville & New CastleEastward & Westward13,300
Empty Car Placement Instructions for Trains
Empty cars 80 feet and longer must be placed in the train in such a location that the trailing tonnage behind these empty cars does not exceed the amount listed below. In territory where helper locomotives are used on the rear of the train, their tonnage rating should be subtracted to the trailing tonnage listed below when determining the location for the restricted car(s):
Between Direction Tonnage
Hyndman & Sand PatchWestward 4,750
Connellsville & SandPatchEastward 8,500
Connellsville & New CastleEastward & Westward13,300
The territory involving Sand Patch are mountain grades. The Connellsville-New Castle territory has very little gradient, however their is a high degree of curvature account following rivers.
Building multi-block trains can create problems in complying with this and other car placement restrictions that the carriers have in effect.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The Centerbeam flat cars are notoriously top-heavy--they don't have thick underframes down below floor level. I nearly had a passed-drawbar incident while working that would have fipped about a half-dozen of them on the yard lead...fortunately, I could grab the loads in the retarder, let the centerbeams right themselves and roll, then it could be fixed the right way with a locomotive making the joints.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR The Centerbeam flat cars are notoriously top-heavy--they don't have thick underframes down below floor level. I nearly had a passed-drawbar incident while working that would have fipped about a half-dozen of them on the yard lead...fortunately, I could grab the loads in the retarder, let the centerbeams right themselves and roll, then it could be fixed the right way with a locomotive making the joints.
Johnny
Deggesty CShaveRR The Centerbeam flat cars are notoriously top-heavy--they don't have thick underframes down below floor level. I nearly had a passed-drawbar incident while working that would have fipped about a half-dozen of them on the yard lead...fortunately, I could grab the loads in the retarder, let the centerbeams right themselves and roll, then it could be fixed the right way with a locomotive making the joints. I have not seen many centerbram cars up slose, but I am sure that if you examine one carefully, you will see instructions for loading and unloading--you do not fill one side and then fill the other; you balance the overall load as much as is possible--some on one side, as much on the other side plus as much, back to the first side and add more, back to the second side.... Unloading is done in reverse--some off, change sides....
I have not seen many centerbram cars up slose, but I am sure that if you examine one carefully, you will see instructions for loading and unloading--you do not fill one side and then fill the other; you balance the overall load as much as is possible--some on one side, as much on the other side plus as much, back to the first side and add more, back to the second side.... Unloading is done in reverse--some off, change sides....
Love the stencil of the little stick figure running from a turning over center beam on the inside of the end bulkhead. Some even have added "speed indicating" lines behind the running figure.
Jeff
I wonder how often the load/unloading instructions are ignored.
Deggesty I wonder how often the load/unloading instructions are ignored.
Probably only once by any given person/crew...
I wonder, though, if anyone has come up with the expedient of placing jacks under the corners of the cars to reduce/eliminate the tipping.
When you consider that the consignee is usually a lumber yard, I'm surprised that tipping doesn't occur more frequently. I've rarely seen lumber yards with a lot of open space on each side of the track.
tree68 Deggesty I wonder how often the load/unloading instructions are ignored. Probably only once by any given person/crew... I wonder, though, if anyone has come up with the expedient of placing jacks under the corners of the cars to reduce/eliminate the tipping.
jeffhergertLove the stencil of the little stick figure running from a turning over center beam on the inside of the end bulkhead. Some even have added "speed indicating" lines behind the running figure. Jeff
- PDN.
jeffhergertLove the stencil of the little stick figure running from a turning over center beam on the inside of the end bulkhead. Some even have added "speed indicating" lines behind the running figure.
He's related to the guy that always has the plug door falling on his head.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannHe's related to the guy that always has the plug door falling on his head.
I like their far more attractive second cousin much more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wObd5GI-qGk
Overmod Not sure I get the reason for this link... zugmann He's related to the guy that always has the plug door falling on his head. I like their far more attractive second cousin much more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wObd5GI-qGk
zugmann He's related to the guy that always has the plug door falling on his head.
MikeInPlanoNot sure I get the reason for this link...
It's humor. If the flat, outline plug-door guy is related to the flat, outline guy running away from tipover, why can't they also be related to the flat, outline mudflap girl?
Note I didn't bring up their urban relatives from Haring and Harald.
Add the Volkswagen Fahrvergnügen ( promo stick-guy) and the Nine-Inch Nails logo w...and then
Overmod MikeInPlano Not sure I get the reason for this link... It's humor. If the flat, outline plug-door guy is related to the flat, outline guy running away from tipover, why can't they also be related to the flat, outline mudflap girl? Note I didn't bring up their urban relatives from Haring and Harald.
MikeInPlano Not sure I get the reason for this link...
Link to one of the center beam warnings (3rd photo):
http://www.trainweb.org/mccloudrails/Equipment/Centerbeams.html
I did find some others - one had some profane graffiti added - but I can't locate them now.
Quite interesting, Paul. The only warning I have read indicated that no more than two layers should loaded or unloaded before moving to the other side and, again, moving no more than two layers past leaving/adding and then moving to the other side. That is, no more than a two layer imbalance..
DeggestyQuite interesting, Paul. The only warning I have read indicated that no more than two layers should loaded or unloaded before moving to the other side and, again, moving no more than two layers past leaving/adding and then moving to the other side. That is, no more than a two layer imbalance...
That's a practical interpretation of what Paul's warning says.
If we were to 'literally' follow what that warning calls for, we'd need coordinated lifts from both sides of the car at once, I might add starting alternately from the ends toward the middle in a coherent pattern, so that the added weight is 'exactly' balanced side-to-side at any point. My opinion is that this is lawyer CYA; you can't argue in court with what the 'manufacturer' or 'owner' has said about keeping the balance exact, exact, exact even if in 'practice' that's functionally ignored...
I'd note that with palleted loads the 'two-layer' weight might be greatly exceeded modularly, to the point where you well might want to alternate 'sides' even piece by piece. Especially if the side-bearing clearance is excessive, or the truck springing compromised, or the track 'soft' or inclining to one side...
I'm pretty sure I've mentioned seeing, years ago, lumber being unloaded from a boxcar, board by board, running down a roller tray into the lumber shed... Talk about manpower intensive.
Re: Pictograms. There are now two handicapped pictograms in circulation. The one with the individual seated upright is still the officially recognized version. The second depicts a more active individual. Only two states have made that one official. The international version is still the first version.
More active? My first thought was that he was falling out of the wheelchair. Come to think of it, that is more active than sitting.
When I first saw that wheelchair figure on highway signs ( the original one), I thought it indicated restrooms.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
That second one is for 'Olympic/Paralympic wheelchair race route crossing'.
Before the advent of the ADA, I think the 'usual' meaning of the sign would have been to indicate wheelchair-accessible restrooms. Not too much else was provided free then...
tree68I'm pretty sure I've mentioned seeing, years ago, lumber being unloaded from a boxcar, board by board, running down a roller tray into the lumber shed...
Regards - Steve
steve-in-kvilleI had seen a hi-rail maintenance truck on the main line yesterday. But for some reason it did not trigger the block lights or the crossbucks? Any idea why?
The wheels are insulated.
Hi-Rails and other maintenance equipment may have insulated wheels, so do not activate track circuits. Even those with all-steel wheels and axles do not always reliably activate the signal system, I suspect due to some combination of the smaller number of axles and lighter weight compared to a locomotive or railcar.
Here's a incident report from a crash involving a train and a hi-rail. The hi-rail had proceeded outside its working limits, and the train crew was proceeding on permissive signal indications:
https://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2016/r16h0024/r16h0024.html
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
How Hi-Rail Pickup Trucks Work | The Daily Drive ...
SD70DudeEven those with all-steel wheels and axles do not always reliably activate the signal system, I suspect due to some combination of the smaller number of axles and lighter weight compared to a locomotive or railcar.
Since we don't run in the winter, we start out each season with instructions to approach each signalled crossing prepared to stop, account rusty rails.
Hi-railers generally stop at every crossing, and have exclusive occupancy of a block by warrant/EC1/Form D, or whatever mechanism that railroad uses. You may find hi-railers following a train, but you'll virtually never see on preceeding a train.
CSSHEGEWISCH When you consider that the consignee is usually a lumber yard, I'm surprised that tipping doesn't occur more frequently. I've rarely seen lumber yards with a lot of open space on each side of the track.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The gates are supposed to be activated 15-20 seconds before the train arrives at the crossing. How far out the train is for that to happen is dependent on track speed.
For hard-wired crossings, that's where the gap will be. The W sign may not be at the same point for high-speed crossings, as the horn is only to be sounded at a quarter mile from the crossing in those cases.
Predictive circuits use doppler via the rails to determine the approach speed and activate the lights and gates at the appropriate distance/time. In this case, the W sign will again be set based on maximum track speed.
In either case, it's up to the engineer to ensure proper horn warning.
It is not always a matter of a “sensor” some distance from the crossing.
If it were just a sensor at some distance a fast train would arrive that the crossing sooner than a slow one. Motorists don’t really know how fast the train is moving and so they would be frustrated with gates that drop too long before a skow train gets there or might get killed if the gates didn’t drop soon enough before a fast train got there.
The crossing lights/gates are controlled by a circuit in the little bungalow near the crossing. It is measuring the current flow between the rails. Sometimes there will be a “shunt” across the rails at some distance from the crossing and it can be at various distances from the crossing, depending on what other sensor circuits are in the vicinity; other crossings, crossovers, switches to spurs and other tracks, diamonds (crossings with other RRs), etc. The shunt might be up to or beyond a mile away, or there may be no shunt specific for that circuit.
The circuitry is measuring the current flow from one rail to the other. This current depends on the resistive value of the rails, the shunt (if present) and the leakage of current through the ground, which will vary with humidity and other factors of nature. It also varies as to any trains in the area and how many axles it has shorting out the rails, and how dirty (leaves, mud, rust, etc.) the rails and or wheels are.
What triggers the circuit to turn on the lights and lower the gates is how fast that current increases as a train approaches. The faster the train the faster the current goes up and the sooner the gates will come down. When the current flow returns to the previous state the gates are raised and the lights turned off. Or if the current stops changing (the trains stops before reaching the crossing) the same thing can happen. But, it can also sense when the train is in the crossing so that it will not release the gates and shut off the lights if the train stops but is still blocking the crossing.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Semper VaporoWhat triggers the circuit to turn on the lights and lower the gates is how fast that current increases as a train approaches. The faster the train the faster the current goes up and the sooner the gates will come down. When the current flow returns to the previous state the gates are raised and the lights turned off. Or if the current stops changing (the trains stops before reaching the crossing) the same thing can happen. But, it can also sense when the train is in the crossing so that it will not release the gates and shut off the lights if the train stops but is still blocking the crossing.
That describes the "predictive" circuits.
With a fixed circuit, it's a matter of whether a train is shunting the circuit. A train standing still on the "approach" circuit will cause the gates to stay down.
The gates will only rise if the activation is over-ridden (a button, usually in a locked box on the signal shelter) or it the circuit is jumpered out, OR, the train goes through the logic of the crossing properly. If that's the case, the gates will rise once the train clears the island circuit (the crossing itself).
Good References:
Introduction to Railroad Signaling and Grade Crossing Operations
http://shrp2.transportation.org/Documents/Renewal/Webinar-Rail-Signaling%20and%20Grade%20Crossings%2010.18.18.pdf
There was a great site with a lot of info that I cannot find ..will keep looking
steve-in-kvilleHere's another: How close to the W sign are the sensors to drop the crossbucks?
Most of our whistle posts are about 1200 ft from the crossing. There are a few leftover from when they ran passenger trains 90mph. The circuits are a lot farther out then that.
We have a rule, as I suppose others do too, that when starting movement within 3000 ft of a crossing speed must not be increased over 5 mph until it's seen the crossing signals have activated and gates (if equipped) are fully lowered.
steve-in-kvilleWhat causes flat spots on car wheels? Did the brakes malfunction at some point and was discovered too late?
When you are operating 10K - 15K foot long trains you are relying on millions of parts always operating as intended. For a variety of reasons air brake valves can have failure conditions which don't permit the brakes to release on some specific car in the length of the train. Train sizes being what they are it is impossible for the crew on the head end to visually 'inspect' the condition of their train on the move. Stuck brakes can slide wheels for miles and miles - if the car with stuck brakes is loaded, it will develop bigger flat spots than will a empty car that slides its wheels for the same distance.
Train handling technique that is currently being taught to engineers encourages the use of the extended range Dynamic Braking abilities of modern locomotives for most braking situations.
To combat the flat wheel situation, many of the Class 1 carriers have implemented a system of Wheel Impact Load Detectors (WILD) - these detectors measure the impact load of each wheel in a train as it passes over the detector - on CSX they established 4 grades of detection - the first grade was a round wheel with no impacts noted; the second grade noted a minor level of impact and it gets noted on the car's history in the Car & Train data base; the thrid grade required that the crew operating the train be notified to drop their train's maximum operating speed to 30 MPH and continue on to destination at that maximum speed; the fourth grade required that the train be contacted and instructed to stop immediately and inspect the car(s) and if the cars is deemed safe to move, set the car out of the train at the first opportunity; if the crew deems the car unsafe to move, car department personnel are dispatched and will govern how the car is handled from that point forward.
Other carriers may have other procedures.
There is that.
Another major contributor is moving a car without releasing the handbrake. That can occur in a variety of ways - customers dragging the car around, crews missing a brake when releasing a number of them, for two.
I have encountered situations where the handbrake was released, but not fully. The shoe is still in contact with the wheel, and as friction heats things up, the brake starts to grab, resulting in the wheel not turning and a flat spot.
It doesn't take a huge flat spot to stop a wheel from turning at low speeds. It then slides, which exascerbates the problem. I've watched it happen.
BaltACDTo combat the flat wheel situation, many of the Class 1 carriers have implemented a system of Wheel Impact Load Detectors (WILD)
This is one of those "one would think so" questions, but is it common practice to "ping" the car ID when a level 2,3 or 4 impact is detected by the WILD and bundle that information to make the report? I ask because so many times in my engineering career and in general I have discovered that "think" apparently didn't find its way into the process.
ChuckCobleigh BaltACD To combat the flat wheel situation, many of the Class 1 carriers have implemented a system of Wheel Impact Load Detectors (WILD) This is one of those "one would think so" questions, but is it common practice to "ping" the car ID when a level 2,3 or 4 impact is detected by the WILD and bundle that information to make the report? I ask because so many times in my engineering career and in general I have discovered that "think" apparently didn't find its way into the process.
BaltACD To combat the flat wheel situation, many of the Class 1 carriers have implemented a system of Wheel Impact Load Detectors (WILD)
As implemented by CSX - the 2nd degree 'Ping' is attached to the car's history. the 3rd and 4th level pings go directly to a office in the Mechanical Dept. headquarters in Jacksonville that the issue an alert in CADS that Train Dispatchers and Chief Train Dispatchers must acknowledge - leaving record that they were notified. They are 'on the hook' if the train doesn't get notified.
I am not aware of what if any 'managerial reports' have been developed for those in the Mechanical Department to further manage the flat wheel issues - systemwide. I am certain that the accumulated WILD data enters into a number of the Car Department operational directives.
The rule of thumb I've heard for flat wheels is that if you can hear it for seven cars, it needs attention...
tree68 . . . You may find hi-railers following a train, but you'll virtually never see on preceeding a train.
Paul_D_North_Jr tree68 . . . You may find hi-railers following a train, but you'll virtually never see on preceeding a train. The exception that proves the rule: I understand Western Pacific ran hi-railers or motorcars in advance of trains in the Feather River canyon (UP still might?). The reason was to detect rockfalls and avalanches or slide-outs under the track far enough in advance for the train to stop before getting there. - PDN.
The exception that proves the rule: I understand Western Pacific ran hi-railers or motorcars in advance of trains in the Feather River canyon (UP still might?). The reason was to detect rockfalls and avalanches or slide-outs under the track far enough in advance for the train to stop before getting there.
While the hi-railer may precede the train - the bigger question rules wise - does the hi-railer and the train have authority in the same track segment at the same time?
Under the circumstance you describe, it would be reasonable (and legal) for the train to get authority and depart A after the hi-railer operated from A to B and released the track segment between A and B. Hi-railer continues to C and when he releases the B to C track segment then the train can be give authority for the B to C segment, etc. etc. etc.
One circumstance, under CSX Rules, where at train can operate into a unreleased track car authority - All CSX track car authorities have a expiration time - IF and it is a big IF, the holder of the track car authority HAS NOT reported clear by the expiration time AND CANNOT be raised using any and all forms of communication, a train can be given authority to operate within the limits of that Track Car Authority at Restricted Speed looking out for the holder of the Track Car Authority. This step will only be undertaken after much discussion among the Dispatcher, the Chief Dispatcher and any other Division Officials that are in the chain of command.
This picture could be a cause that the hi-railer was not able to communicate
BaltACDWhile the hi-railer may precede the train - the bigger question rules wise - does the hi-railer and the train have authority in the same track segment at the same time?
I recall seeing a series of pictures in one of the railfan magazines of a speeder doing an inspection run, then scurrying to clear before the scheduled train came through. I suspect it was under something like T&TO operation, but if memory serves, it was on WP.
tree68 BaltACD While the hi-railer may precede the train - the bigger question rules wise - does the hi-railer and the train have authority in the same track segment at the same time? I recall seeing a series of pictures in one of the railfan magazines of a speeder doing an inspection run, then scurrying to clear before the scheduled train came through. I suspect it was under something like T&TO operation, but if memory serves, it was on WP.
BaltACD While the hi-railer may precede the train - the bigger question rules wise - does the hi-railer and the train have authority in the same track segment at the same time?
Most Class 1's up until the late 80's used the TT&TO method of operation for trains and Track Car Line Ups for MofW equipment. In these forms of operation, MofW equipment did not have 'authority' they had to operate and 'protect against' trains as indicated on the Track Car Line Up.
Subsequently in the late 80's & early 90's, the Class 1's eliminated the TT&TO method of operation as well as Track Car Line Ups. From the change onward, track cars had Authority to occupy specific trackage and no longer had to protect against trains when occupying that trackage within the time limits of the authority.
I used to watch the railcams at Chama and often I'd see a speeder leave just before the steam train would head the same direction. I figured it was an inspector checking the track condition ahead of the passenger train.
Semper VaporoI used to atch the railcams at Chama and often I'd see a speeder leave just before the steam train would head the same direction. I figured it was an inspector checking the track condition ahead of the passenger train.
They may not be operating under the same rule considerations that the Class 1's are, or they may have TTSI that define and authorize specific inspections and the requirements that apply in making those inspections.
rdamonGood References: Introduction to Railroad Signaling and Grade Crossing Operations http://shrp2.transportation.org/Documents/Renewal/Webinar-Rail-Signaling%20and%20Grade%20Crossings%2010.18.18.pdf There was a great site with a lot of info that I cannot find ..will keep looking
The grade portion starts on slide 45 of 78 (page 41).
Good presentation there. Thanks for sharing.
Western Pacific also had an arrangement where hi-rail vehicles would precede all trains through the Feather River Canyon to warn of slides and similar occurences.
CSSHEGEWISCH Western Pacific also had an arrangement where hi-rail vehicles would precede all trains through the Feather River Canyon to warn of slides and similar occurences.
I suspect the article/photos to which I referred were of that very operation.
The Western Pacific used hi-rail escorts through the Feather river canyon during winter because rock slides were common. They ran 2 miles ahead of every train and anounced there milepost location over the radio as they passed each one.
chad s thomas The Western Pacific used hi-rail escorts through the Feather river canyon during winter because rock slides were common. They ran 2 miles ahead of every train and anounced there milepost location over the radio as they passed each one.
Since they originally used Ford hi-rail equipped Bronco vehicles, they were called "broncos". They still are. I read a report recently where a train was held waiting for the Broncos to clear.
I don't know if they actually escort each train, or now just patrol every so often during the critical times.
steve-in-kvilleI just got my ACTS to work... I'm a bit confused as to which industries have their spurs on the map, but others do not? We have a customer that gets serviced a few times a week and their spur is not on the dispatch page.
I have no idea what ACTS displays on their model boards - I do know what gets displayed on CSX real world CADS model boards. What gets diplayed on real world model boards are the Control Points - not every switch on a line, not the spurs off the Main Tracks to customers sidings. That is for CTC territory.
In Dark Territory, only the Main Tracks are shown, like on the CTC model boards only designated passing sidings or leads to CTC and/or other divirging Dark territory are shown.
In both forms of model boards, on CSX, the Train Identification, once entered into the system, moves in accordance with the train's operation - track segment to track segment as it is detected moving along signaled routes. Track segment to track segment in Dark territory as the Dispatcher gives out Track Warrant authority and as that authority is released by the moving trains.
In the times before CTC and/or CADS - all the information used by the Train Dispatcher to control the movement of trains on his territory was on paper Train Sheets which contain OS's as Operators report the passage of trains at their locations, hand written Train Order books and in the Train Dispatcher's mind.
Steve, what is ACTS?
ATCS pulls its data from literally the same feed the dispatchers get. The servers for railfan ATCS get their information off the air, decode it, and then display it on a model board similar to the dispatchers'.
Since the ATCS for Deshler has been unavailable for several years - once they cut over to satellite - I don't have that available any more. And the client is on my old laptop.
I would suspect that sidings not having to do with an interlocking as such - ie, industrial sidings - may not show up, even if they are tied into the track circuit.
steve-in-kvilleI meant ATCS... sorry.
No problem, that would have meant nothing to me either! But now I've looked it up. I'd love to see it, but won't make the effort to get plugged in.
Lithonia OperatorI'd love to see it, but won't make the effort to get plugged in.
And it is a bit involved, since you have to go into a receiver to pull off the signal at the appropriate place. It might be possible to use a specialty modem such as hams use for digital traffic if your ATCS is still on VHF, but you'd still need to know how to decode it.
Larry, just my physical location probably means it's impossible. If that ain't the nail in the coffin, my tech prowess is.
steve-in-kvilleWhy is a "penalty brake" called that? Does someone actually get in trouble?
it would be possible to design a system either for train control or vigilance that automatically applies only proportional braking, from which the engineer could recover even after having failed to 'forestall' triggering a commanded brake application. Very few of the commercially-marketed systems worked that way.
As the system only sets the brakes when some 'unsafe' action has occurred, you can bet there are "consequences" for having triggered it...
Lithonia Operator Larry, just my physical location probably means it's impossible. If that ain't the nail in the coffin, my tech prowess is.
If someone has set up a railfan ATCS server for the area that interests you it may be possible to access it everywhere. There was a period when I could watch the Deshler, OH feed from here in NY.
There used to be an ATCS group on Yahoo, but I believe that has moved elsewhere.
tree68There used to be an ATCS group on Yahoo, but I believe that has moved elsewhere.
Overmod tree68 There used to be an ATCS group on Yahoo, but I believe that has moved elsewhere. ATCS Monitor on groups.io
tree68 There used to be an ATCS group on Yahoo, but I believe that has moved elsewhere.
ATCS Monitor on groups.io
Thats what I did. I had to watch a few youtube videos to get my downloads to work right, and even after that I had to change some stuff.
steve-in-kvilleSo where does one dispatcher end and the other begin? If a train is eastbound between Harrisburg and Reading, at what point does the Harrisburg East dispatcher stop and whoever runs the Reading yard begin?
Someone familiar with the line will have to answer that, unless you can find a recent copy of the Employee Time Table.
That you mention "yard" might be important, as a DS may control the main through the yard, while the yard has its own dispatcher or equivalent. I believe that's how the IM yard at North Baltimore (CSX) works.
I don't know the NS territory.
On CSX Dispatcher's territories begin and end at designated Control Points that are identified in the ETT. A individual Control Point 'belongs' to one Dispatcher and one Dispatcher alone. Adjoining Dispatchers communicate among themselves as to what track(s) train(s) should be operated on or if a train should be held back from the designated Control Point for some reason. The Dispatcher's will provide switch and signal blocking for each other when necessary for the safety of Signal or MofW personnel as required by the rules.
steve-in-kvilleFrom what I can gather, the Reading yards are still in Harrisburg East's territory, but there is a separate radio channel for the yard, which makes sense. Both East Penn and Reading & Northern tie in at that yard as well. Not sure what channel they would use.
That would depend on the arrangement there.
If each has their own portion of the yard (one or two tracks where they interchange, f'rinstance), they may just stay on their own channel(s).
If they need to interface with the yardmaster, they'll probably go over to that channel.
At Utica, NY, f'rinstance (CSX & MA&N), CSX stays on their road channel when they make pick-ups and drops on the interchange tracks, even though they are in the MA&N yard at the time (although the interchange tracks may technically be CSX's anyhow). When MA&N is working those tracks, they're on their own channel.
MA&N has trackage rights Utica to Rome, and goes to the CSX road channel when on CSX. Once clear of CSX, they're back on their own channel.
Another case of "it depends."
tree68 steve-in-kville From what I can gather, the Reading yards are still in Harrisburg East's territory, but there is a separate radio channel for the yard, which makes sense. Both East Penn and Reading & Northern tie in at that yard as well. Not sure what channel they would use. That would depend on the arrangement there. If each has their own portion of the yard (one or two tracks where they interchange, f'rinstance), they may just stay on their own channel(s). If they need to interface with the yardmaster, they'll probably go over to that channel. At Utica, NY, f'rinstance (CSX & MA&N), CSX stays on their road channel when they make pick-ups and drops on the interchange tracks, even though they are in the MA&N yard at the time (although the interchange tracks may technically be CSX's anyhow). When MA&N is working those tracks, they're on their own channel. MA&N has trackage rights Utica to Rome, and goes to the CSX road channel when on CSX. Once clear of CSX, they're back on their own channel. Another case of "it depends."
steve-in-kville From what I can gather, the Reading yards are still in Harrisburg East's territory, but there is a separate radio channel for the yard, which makes sense. Both East Penn and Reading & Northern tie in at that yard as well. Not sure what channel they would use.
Field radios have access to the full spectrum of FRA authorized radio channels. Radios on locomotives get used all across all the railroads in the country and need to be able to conduct business on the proper channels that are in effect on the particular carrier and location where they are at any moment in time.
Fixed location radios have their access limited to the channels that are appropriate to the specific location. If there is a Yardmaster with a radio, the channels available to him will most likely be limited to the Road Channel on the subdivision and the Yard Channel assigned to his yard. He will not have access to the Dispatcher's Channel nor will he have access to the MofW Channel.
The Train Dispatcher will have access to the Road Channel for the subdivisions he operates (normally, those subdivisions will all have the same road channel). The Dispatcher will also have access to the Dispatcher's channel - he doesn't have access to the Yard Channel(s) or MofW Channel. Dispatcher frequently have trouble making contact with trains that are in Yard Limits as they may be monitoring the Yard Channel. When necessary, they may call the Yardmaster to have him contact the crew so they can converse with the Dispatcher.
Everybody on a segment of railroad will have access to the Road Channel for that segment of the road. When it is necessary employees of to contact each other, the initial contact is initiated over the Road Channel, if the conversation will be about 'involved' issues or Mandatory Directives the parties will take their conversation one of the 'special' channels - Dispatcher, Yard or MofW. The Road Channel is a party line for all employees, the 'special' channels are semi-private conversation spaces.
Needless to say, different railroads occupying the same geographical area will each have their own series of radio channels so that each railroad can conduct its business without getting trampled by the other railroads.
In the Baltimore area you have CSX, NS, Amtrak, the Canton RR, and Tradepoint Rail all operate on the airwaves with their radios.
BaltACDField radios have access to the full spectrum of FRA authorized radio channels. Radios on locomotives get used all across all the railroads in the country and need to be able to conduct business on the proper channels that are in effect on the particular carrier and location where they are at any moment in time.
Especially on short lines, the radios may have specific, commonly used channels programmed into the radio. So you may hear "go to channel 2" versus the actual AAR channel.
We have five "channels" we regularly use - two of our own for road and yard, one that keys our repeater, one for the shortline we run on, and one for their repeater. They also have another channel available - we rarely use it, and few of our radios have it programmed.
Many is the time, when listening to CSX, that I"ve heard the DS say "go over to 49" (or whatever the DS channel is), referring to AAR channel 49.
Hand-held (portable) radios generally are programmed for the required local frequencies. They aren't as likely to roam the system as the locomotives.
I've heard it suggested that railfans who travel a lot program all of the AAR frequencies into their scanner. There are now almost 200 AAR frequencies since narrowbanding occurred.
BaltACDThe Train Dispatcher will have access to the Road Channel for the subdivisions he operates (normally, those subdivisions will all have the same road channel). The Dispatcher will also have access to the Dispatcher's channel - he doesn't have access to the Yard Channel(s) or MofW Channel. Dispatcher frequently have trouble making contact with trains that are in Yard Limits as they may be monitoring the Yard Channel. When necessary, they may call the Yardmaster to have him contact the crew so they can converse with the Dispatcher.
When I was a DS, we had access to a couple yard channels. We didn't usually monitor them, but crews could tone on them, and we could talk to them.
zugmann BaltACD The Train Dispatcher will have access to the Road Channel for the subdivisions he operates (normally, those subdivisions will all have the same road channel). The Dispatcher will also have access to the Dispatcher's channel - he doesn't have access to the Yard Channel(s) or MofW Channel. Dispatcher frequently have trouble making contact with trains that are in Yard Limits as they may be monitoring the Yard Channel. When necessary, they may call the Yardmaster to have him contact the crew so they can converse with the Dispatcher. When I was a DS, we had access to a couple yard channels. We didn't usually monitor them, but crews could tone on them, and we could talk to them.
BaltACD The Train Dispatcher will have access to the Road Channel for the subdivisions he operates (normally, those subdivisions will all have the same road channel). The Dispatcher will also have access to the Dispatcher's channel - he doesn't have access to the Yard Channel(s) or MofW Channel. Dispatcher frequently have trouble making contact with trains that are in Yard Limits as they may be monitoring the Yard Channel. When necessary, they may call the Yardmaster to have him contact the crew so they can converse with the Dispatcher.
CSX doesn't give Dispatchers Yard channels or MofW channels.
BaltACDCSX doesn't give Dispatchers Yard channels or MofW channels.
That sucks. Sometimes I'd get bored in the afternoon when there was a lull, and listen in to the one yard channel when I knew their daily turn was building. It almost always needed the signal and permission to reverse to make their doubles. So I'd listen in and when I heard the engineer tell his conductor he would have to call the DS (me) for the signal - poof! It would pop up without him needing to play the song of my people. Always caught them a little off guard.
zugmann BaltACD CSX doesn't give Dispatchers Yard channels or MofW channels. That sucks. Sometimes I'd get bored in the afternoon when there was a lull, and listen in to the one yard channel when I knew their daily turn was building. It almost always needed the signal and permission to reverse to make their doubles. So I'd listen in and when I heard the engineer tell his conductor he would have to call the DS (me) for the signal - poof! It would pop up without him needing to play the song of my people. Always caught them a little off guard.
BaltACD CSX doesn't give Dispatchers Yard channels or MofW channels.
zugmann the song of my people.
the song of my people.
Dah Doo Dee. Boop Boop. Warble Warble (but only if it went through).
Never knew you were a God. Just how does one wield that sort of power?
Overmod steve-in-kville Why is a "penalty brake" called that? Does someone actually get in trouble? It's called that in ATS (automatic train stop) or ATC (automatic train control) because the system is designed to produce a full stop, sometimes followed by a consequence like a time delay or requiring the conductor to unlock the system, before the train can proceed. it would be possible to design a system either for train control or vigilance that automatically applies only proportional braking, from which the engineer could recover even after having failed to 'forestall' triggering a commanded brake application. Very few of the commercially-marketed systems worked that way. As the system only sets the brakes when some 'unsafe' action has occurred, you can bet there are "consequences" for having triggered it...
steve-in-kville Why is a "penalty brake" called that? Does someone actually get in trouble?
It's called that in ATS (automatic train stop) or ATC (automatic train control) because the system is designed to produce a full stop, sometimes followed by a consequence like a time delay or requiring the conductor to unlock the system, before the train can proceed.
A penalty brake application also occurs when the alerter/RSC finishes counting down without being reset. It can also occur when any of the systems mentioned malfunctions, which is probably more common than actual unsafe events.
As for getting in trouble, your mileage will vary from railroad to railroad depending on how the locomotives and monitoring systems are set up, and on the individual manager who receives the message. CN's does not generate automatic tattling messages below 10 mph.
SD70DudeNever knew you were a God. Just how does one wield that sort of power?
What's the difference between a dispatcher and God? God wishes he were a dispatcher.
SD70DudeA penalty brake application also occurs when the alerter/RSC finishes counting down without being reset. It can also occur when any of the systems mentioned malfunctions, which is probably more common than actual unsafe events.
Alerter, cab signal drop not acknowledged, PTC/LSL enforcement if it doesnt think you are slowing down enough (PTC can do an emergency application if it really freaks out), brake fault, probably some other things too.
Shortline railroads used to have a limit of 400 miles in length. Regional railroads are anything that isn't a Class I railroad (not many of those left any more!) but are too big to be a shortline. The Wheeling & Lake Erie, Montana Rail Link, and Rapid City, Pierre & Eastern would be good examples of regional lines.
steve-in-kvilleSo I would imagine that shortline and regionals almost never order new locomotives since the Class 1's seem to have plenty of used machines for sale?
That is usually the case, though shortlines/ regionals do occasionally buy new locomotives:
https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/11/21-iowa-interstate-bolsters-locomotive-fleet
At well over a million a pop for new locos, and $100K for used (obviously generalities, but for now...), most short lines don't have the cash for a new loco, unless they've got some business that's going to generate sufficient income to pay for it.
Oftimes that's what you'll see happen on a regional - they get a new customer who justifies the expense, so they go for new.
steve-in-kvilleAre regional railroads and shortline the same thing?
Will this work?
Those revenue limits were invented by committee! And some of the members had an agenda!
Semper VaporoThose revenue limits were invented by committee! And some of the members had an agenda!
Someone had to invent them.
Nothing happens in the human world without someone having an agenda!
zugmann steve-in-kville Are regional railroads and shortline the same thing? Will this work?
steve-in-kville Are regional railroads and shortline the same thing?
Johnny: first question somebody has to ask is by whose definition? (AAR or FRA)...they are different and only AAR openly uses the term "regional"...FRA just uses "Class 2".....They get used for different purposes and calculations.
Non-railroad muggles (like somewhat civil engineers/ rubber-tired tribe) get all confuzzed with FRA Class of Track (49CFR213) vs FRA/STB size of Railroad (49CFR1201). Add-in the AAR classes/ size catagories and brain cells begin to self destruct spontaeniously (sp?).
I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that if your expenses are greater than your income, you are not really earning anything. This may be a semantics thing.
zugmann SD70Dude A penalty brake application also occurs when the alerter/RSC finishes counting down without being reset. It can also occur when any of the systems mentioned malfunctions, which is probably more common than actual unsafe events. Alerter, cab signal drop not acknowledged, PTC/LSL enforcement if it doesnt think you are slowing down enough (PTC can do an emergency application if it really freaks out), brake fault, probably some other things too.
SD70Dude A penalty brake application also occurs when the alerter/RSC finishes counting down without being reset. It can also occur when any of the systems mentioned malfunctions, which is probably more common than actual unsafe events.
The penalty brake application will also open the PCS, pneumatic control switch or power control switch-take your pick. This causes the engine to go to idle.
A penalty application is a full service application, not an emergency application. To recover, the automatic brake valve is placed in suppression.
When our ATC dropped to restricting above 40 mph, we have 6 seconds to go to suppression. Suppression also causes a full service application, but keeps the PCS from opening.
steve-in-kvilleI've seen the same heritage unit (Wabash) two weeks in a row going the same direction. Fancy that.
There's a chance it's running between two points and you simply haven't seen the return trip.
Very cool, though. I like the Wabash scheme.
I've got six photographed (CG, VGN, PC, INT, DL&W and RDG) and almost all of them sighted. Of course, it helps that that I ride to and from work everyday on an ex-Wabash line (Southwest Service).
steve-in-kvilleSo if there is a special paint/heritage unit in a train, is it always the lead locomotive? So far that has been my experience.
On the home road, I'd imagine they make an effort to do that. Run through power on another railroad possibly not so much.
OTOH, if it's facing the wrong direction and there's no way to turn it, it'll at least be the second unit. And if it's in one of those increasingly rare spots that requires special equipment in order to lead, not.
I've seen them in positions other than lead.
What kind of special equipment? Like different technologies?
Special equipment includes ATS or cab signals, creep control, etc.
You'll hear variations. Some will just repeat the sequence, ignoring the part about the last long blast when crossing the road. As I recall, that's pretty much what the rule says.
One spot I know of with two crossings immediately adjacent to each other often produces long-long-short-long-short-long.
I've noticed locally, where tracks cross city blocks diagonally, for some of the really close crossings the engineer just prolongs the final long blast to cover two crossings.
They are articulated sets, and they are as you note 'permanently coupled'. Of further note, most have larger wheels in the 'central' trucks than on the ends. I have not seen them in sets of 6; 5 or 3 are more common.
steve-in-kvilleI'm seeing lots of container trains, of varying arrangements. One thing I noticed are maybe six well cars that share the same trucks, almost like they are permanently coupled. Is there a name for these cars?
Articulated cars would be the proper name.
Where I worked they were referred to as 5 packers and 3 packers. The 5 packers have 5 wells to hold containers, the 3 packers have 3 wells. The wells can hold multiple containers. While it is possible for the wells to hold up to 4 twenty foot containers, I can't recall seeing that configuration; most normally I see 2 twenty footers on the bottom and they are topped with 40, 48 or 53 foot top container.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twistlock
Not really. Someone forgot to flip a switch.
We're required to have interior lights on at night on trailing units that are running. (Actually producing power or isolated). If the unit is shut down, they don't need to be on. It's a safety thing for crewmembers going inside the cab at night.
jeffhergertWe're required to have interior lights on at night on trailing units that are running. (Actually producing power or isolated). If the unit is shut down, they don't need to be on. It's a safety thing for crewmembers going inside the cab at night. Jeff
It must be a UP thing - never heard of such a rule on CSX.
BaltACD jeffhergert We're required to have interior lights on at night on trailing units that are running. (Actually producing power or isolated). If the unit is shut down, they don't need to be on. It's a safety thing for crewmembers going inside the cab at night. Jeff It must be a UP thing - never heard of such a rule on CSX.
jeffhergert We're required to have interior lights on at night on trailing units that are running. (Actually producing power or isolated). If the unit is shut down, they don't need to be on. It's a safety thing for crewmembers going inside the cab at night. Jeff
Same here (CN in Canada). Never heard of anyone having to do that.
I would suppose that lights on in an unoccupied cab would also let someone observing a train as it passes see if there's someone in the cab. Especially if there's not supposed to be...
tree68 I would suppose that lights on in an unoccupied cab would also let someone observing a train as it passes see if there's someone in the cab. Especially if there's not supposed to be...
True, but how is the average citizen or railfan to know whe belongs there? I read on this forum that sometimes supervisors and deadheading employees ride in trailing locos.
I wouldn't expect John Q Public to know the difference - it would be company officials doing roll-by that would know. If the person was wearing a high vis vest, it might take a call to the lead loco to see if they were aware of a rider...
Yes, the cab light requirement isn't in the rule book, but in one of the other numerous bulletins put out by various levels of management.
With the tinted windows it may be hard to tell if anyone is in the cab. It would depend on how many cab lights are on. There's no requirement for how many of the lights are on. Some turn every interior light Depending on model, there can be 5 to 7 lights. one or two main lights, plus 3 to 5 reading lights. I won't turn them all on. I usually try to leave the one or two engineer reading lights off because I hate it when they're burned out.
Overmod Deggesty Quite interesting, Paul. The only warning I have read indicated that no more than two layers should loaded or unloaded before moving to the other side and, again, moving no more than two layers past leaving/adding and then moving to the other side. That is, no more than a two layer imbalance... That's a practical interpretation of what Paul's warning says. If we were to 'literally' follow what that warning calls for, we'd need coordinated lifts from both sides of the car at once, I might add starting alternately from the ends toward the middle in a coherent pattern, so that the added weight is 'exactly' balanced side-to-side at any point. My opinion is that this is lawyer CYA; you can't argue in court with what the 'manufacturer' or 'owner' has said about keeping the balance exact, exact, exact even if in 'practice' that's functionally ignored... I'd note that with palleted loads the 'two-layer' weight might be greatly exceeded modularly, to the point where you well might want to alternate 'sides' even piece by piece. Especially if the side-bearing clearance is excessive, or the truck springing compromised, or the track 'soft' or inclining to one side...
Deggesty Quite interesting, Paul. The only warning I have read indicated that no more than two layers should loaded or unloaded before moving to the other side and, again, moving no more than two layers past leaving/adding and then moving to the other side. That is, no more than a two layer imbalance...
The suggestion to place jacks while loading or unloading is interesting. What about pneumatic jacks built into the car that can be deployed when needed.?
MikeInPlanoWhat about pneumatic jacks built into the car that can be deployed when needed.?
The initial difficulty I have with this is one of capital and training:to be effective the jacks would have to act well outboard of the gauge, where the contact with the roadbed might be uncertain (and the precision of spotting cars over in-ground jacking pads purpose-built for effective loading difficult to achieve). You would still want to do balanced load and unload -- otherwise a faiure of leveling or locking would be rapidly catastrophic, possibly inescapable. Reasonable safeguards and a recursion of onerous and boring SPAF equivalents would be designed, of course ... but would they still be maintained and observed many years later, especially when complacency or deferred maintenance has set in... I'm reminded of the hitch failure on Iron Highway, which was pointed out to me to be highly anomalous BUT it was dangerous in significant ways when it happened.
I'd be more concerned with parts of one of the jack mechanisms accidentally deploying or breaking. There are no good places for a jacking leg to go at 50mph. How would you keep them out of mischief in some other kind of high-momentum accident? More to the point, what does the crew do when one fails inspection or testing enroute?
I'd think about using fixed stabilizing jacks at spottable positions, raising to engage the underframe of the car a bit like the jacking in the original CargoSpeed intermodal approach. There is no reason why this couldn't be worked with 'power air' in some way if shore power of a safe kind proved difficult or fallible. Then you have the fun of developing a safe procedure with interlocks and safeguards against trouble ... the problem being again that the consequences of a safety failure or oversight could be almost promptly implacable.
jeffhergertYes, the cab light requirement isn't in the rule book, but in one of the other numerous bulletins put out by various levels of management. With the tinted windows it may be hard to tell if anyone is in the cab. It would depend on how many cab lights are on. There's no requirement for how many of the lights are on. Some turn every interior light Depending on model, there can be 5 to 7 lights. one or two main lights, plus 3 to 5 reading lights. I won't turn them all on. I usually try to leave the one or two engineer reading lights off because I hate it when they're burned out. Jeff
If a employee would be riding in a trailing locomotive - they would keep the cab lights off in order to protect their eyes acclimation to night vision - exposure to light lengthens the time required for one's eyes to adjust to the light level in the dark.
BaltACD jeffhergert Yes, the cab light requirement isn't in the rule book, but in one of the other numerous bulletins put out by various levels of management. With the tinted windows it may be hard to tell if anyone is in the cab. It would depend on how many cab lights are on. There's no requirement for how many of the lights are on. Some turn every interior light Depending on model, there can be 5 to 7 lights. one or two main lights, plus 3 to 5 reading lights. I won't turn them all on. I usually try to leave the one or two engineer reading lights off because I hate it when they're burned out. Jeff If a employee would be riding in a trailing locomotive - they would keep the cab lights off in order to protect their eyes acclimation to night vision - exposure to light lengthens the time required for one's eyes to adjust to the light level in the dark.
jeffhergert Yes, the cab light requirement isn't in the rule book, but in one of the other numerous bulletins put out by various levels of management. With the tinted windows it may be hard to tell if anyone is in the cab. It would depend on how many cab lights are on. There's no requirement for how many of the lights are on. Some turn every interior light Depending on model, there can be 5 to 7 lights. one or two main lights, plus 3 to 5 reading lights. I won't turn them all on. I usually try to leave the one or two engineer reading lights off because I hate it when they're burned out. Jeff
While some areas still have a brakeman on some trains, we usually don't. About the only ones riding trailing units are dead heads. Some may have them off if they want to sleep. Others may want to read and have a light on. I've done both when dead heading.
A lot of crewmembers in the lead cab will leave the reading light on at night. Especially those that are dimmable. (Some of them require manual methods to reduce the amount of light.) I've done that too. Especially when some of the gage lights are burned out.
jeffhergert BaltACD jeffhergert Yes, the cab light requirement isn't in the rule book, but in one of the other numerous bulletins put out by various levels of management. With the tinted windows it may be hard to tell if anyone is in the cab. It would depend on how many cab lights are on. There's no requirement for how many of the lights are on. Some turn every interior light Depending on model, there can be 5 to 7 lights. one or two main lights, plus 3 to 5 reading lights. I won't turn them all on. I usually try to leave the one or two engineer reading lights off because I hate it when they're burned out. Jeff If a employee would be riding in a trailing locomotive - they would keep the cab lights off in order to protect their eyes acclimation to night vision - exposure to light lengthens the time required for one's eyes to adjust to the light level in the dark. While some areas still have a brakeman on some trains, we usually don't. About the only ones riding trailing units are dead heads. Some may have them off if they want to sleep. Others may want to read and have a light on. I've done both when dead heading. A lot of crewmembers in the lead cab will leave the reading light on at night. Especially those that are dimmable. (Some of them require manual methods to reduce the amount of light.) I've done that too. Especially when some of the gage lights are burned out. Jeff
CN is kind enough to give us red B/O tags that are the perfect size for dimming the desk lights. But sometimes you have to get creative with the paper towels and band-aids from the crewpaks (if you both forgot your duct tape at home).
The crewpak materials are also pretty good at silencing annoying rattles when stuffed strategically into cracks.
steve-in-kvilleI'm seeing a lot more refer containers. How would a train crew know, if at all, that one went down? I've never heard of a crew talk about a downed refer over the radio....
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
I seem to remember that in the 'old days' before cellular radio or satellite monitoring was any more than science fiction, crews would check that reefers were running as they walked a consist or observed one passing. If I remember correctly there were employees -- I'd think almost certainly carmen -- who would periodically top up the diesel fuel in cars taking "too long" to get where they were going; I'd expect this to be billed just about as periodic 're-icing' of passive reefers would be. Seems to me that Trains has at least one story about what happened if reefer units failed, ran out of Freon, or caught fire while in service, but I don't remember any actual details.
I am amused that some of the Cryo-Trans cars have a full platform with safety railings and harness points to work on their cooling equipment -- this is laudable but not at all inexpensive...
A CSX train passing through Defiance, OH last week was briefly delayed while the fire department doused the refrigeration unit on such a container. I saw it a little later as it passed through Deshler with a melted housing...
I don't know how the fire was reported - probably someone lineside saw it and called it in.
tree68 steve-in-kville I'm seeing a lot more refer containers. How would a train crew know, if at all, that one went down? I've never heard of a crew talk about a downed refer over the radio.... A CSX train passing through Defiance, OH last week was briefly delayed while the fire department doused the refrigeration unit on such a container. I saw it a little later as it passed through Deshler with a melted housing... I don't know how the fire was reported - probably someone lineside saw it and called it in.
steve-in-kville I'm seeing a lot more refer containers. How would a train crew know, if at all, that one went down? I've never heard of a crew talk about a downed refer over the radio....
Most likely a passing train saw it and notified both the train with the fire and the Train Dispatcher - the Train Dispatcher got in contact with both the train with the fire and the PSCC (CSX Police Center) and came to an agreed point to stop for a local Fire Department to respond and extinguish the fire. Just like in racing, stopping where there is no fire fighting equipment doesn't produce a 'happy' outcome.
BaltACDMost likely a passing train saw it and notified both the train with the fire and the Train Dispatcher - the Train Dispatcher got in contact with both the train with the fire and the PSCC (CSX Police Center) and came to an agreed point to stop for a local Fire Department to respond and extinguish the fire. Just like in racing, stopping where there is no fire fighting equipment doesn't produce a 'happy' outcome.
Can't disagree. It's a busy two-track line. All of the above are possible.
Lots of problems, not just limited to direct strikes on wires, poles, or cabinets. Locomotives are both electrically and 'medically' risky as they are substantially grounded to earth potential, as cars with rubber tires are not, and even an S-520 cab may not act as a full Faraday cage to divert current 'around' people inside.
A strike to ground or ballast can induce substantial earth current there, which can derange equipment or cause it to drop to weird settings.
MOW runs "storm patrols" after nasty storms. Looking for fallen trees, washouts, etc.
steve-in-kvilleI saw a hi-rail truck on the tracks early Sunday morning. We had a series of thunderstorms move through the area overnight, so I figured something must have taken a lightning strike. What kind of damage can lightning do to the tracks and its signals? Who figures out something is wrong? The train crews? Dispatchers?
Think hundreds of thousands if not millions of volts in a lightning strike vs. electronic equipment that operates on millivolts. The potential for dmage is endless.
Everyone will discover what is wrong as soon as find something that should be working isn't. Each emplyee/craft have their own set of things they would expect to be working.
Hi-railing on a Sunday morning could be for multiple causes which includes the Roadmaster's periodically required inspection of his territory (Sunday's are favored as there is normally less train traffic as well as MofW work projects are normally laid in on the weekends). Hi-railing could also taking place account of anomaly's having been reported by train crews operating through the area.
If lightning had damaged the signal system you most likely would have seen trains moving over the tracks at Restricted Speed as they would have to have been given the Train Dispatcher's permission to pass Stop Signals that would be displayed at the Control Points.
BaltACDHi-railing on a Sunday morning could be for multiple causes which includes the Roadmaster's periodically required inspection of his territory (Sunday's are favored as there is normally less train traffic as well as MofW work projects are normally laid in on the weekends). Hi-railing could also taking place account of anomaly's having been reported by train crews operating through the area.
Where I worked - most of the MOW guys wouldn't come out on the weekends unless something happened. They had their normal patrol schedules and were accomadated. Maintainers would sometimes show up on saturday morning for their switch tests - that way they could bang out all the switches on a line in like an hour.
steve-in-kvilleOn a two-track mainline, can a train be switched over at normal speed? Or must they slow down? I've seen videos of them slowing down until the lead loco's are across, the speeding up. My hunting spot is about two miles from a switch and I have never seen them slow down for it, at least not that I could notice.
Depends entirely on the design/ dimensions of the crossover. High speed crossovers do exist but are more expensive to build and maintain. For a freight only line, slowing down for a crossover is a lot less expensive in the long run.
On the lines I work, for awhile it seemed 30 mph crossovers were in vogue. Then 40 mph crossovers was the go to when possible. Now it's 50 mph crossovers. And there are places where they have 60 mph crossovers.
If they are slowing down and then speeding up after going through the switch, it's a head end only restriction. I know of some switches that were like that if you were going through the trailing point direction. Most crossovers (and switches) require the entire movement to pass through before picking up speed.
jeffhergert steve-in-kville On a two-track mainline, can a train be switched over at normal speed? Or must they slow down? I've seen videos of them slowing down until the lead loco's are across, the speeding up. My hunting spot is about two miles from a switch and I have never seen them slow down for it, at least not that I could notice. On the lines I work, for awhile it seemed 30 mph crossovers were in vogue. Then 40 mph crossovers was the go to when possible. Now it's 50 mph crossovers. And there are places where they have 60 mph crossovers. If they are slowing down and then speeding up after going through the switch, it's a head end only restriction. I know of some switches that were like that if you were going through the trailing point direction. Most crossovers (and switches) require the entire movement to pass through before picking up speed. Jeff
steve-in-kville On a two-track mainline, can a train be switched over at normal speed? Or must they slow down? I've seen videos of them slowing down until the lead loco's are across, the speeding up. My hunting spot is about two miles from a switch and I have never seen them slow down for it, at least not that I could notice.
mudchicken jeffhergert steve-in-kville On a two-track mainline, can a train be switched over at normal speed? Or must they slow down? I've seen videos of them slowing down until the lead loco's are across, the speeding up. My hunting spot is about two miles from a switch and I have never seen them slow down for it, at least not that I could notice. On the lines I work, for awhile it seemed 30 mph crossovers were in vogue. Then 40 mph crossovers was the go to when possible. Now it's 50 mph crossovers. And there are places where they have 60 mph crossovers. If they are slowing down and then speeding up after going through the switch, it's a head end only restriction. I know of some switches that were like that if you were going through the trailing point direction. Most crossovers (and switches) require the entire movement to pass through before picking up speed. Jeff The joys of movable point (swing nose) high number frogs, sampson point and undercut stock rails...Less of a threat to the wearable parts and no flangeway gap in the frog.
The joys of movable point (swing nose) high number frogs, sampson point and undercut stock rails...Less of a threat to the wearable parts and no flangeway gap in the frog.
http://www.railway-technical.com/infrastructure/
200 KPH switch - 8 switch machines to operate the points; 3 switch machines to operate the frog.
Looks like the sharp curves beyond the frog will provide a rougher ride than the switch itself.
CShaveRRLooks like the sharp curves beyond the frog will provide a rougher ride than the switch itself.
I think I read that the switch points were 180 feet long or possibly longer. Obviously, not a US installation.
CSX during my Dispatching career raised the speeds on various crossovers on my territories - when you put in 45-50 MPH crossovers - they are LONG between one end and the other. Whenever it became necessary because of signal issues to have trains operate past Stop signals by securing the switches in their route in HAND position and then operating at restricted speed - it seemed like it took 'forever' for Conductor to exit the locomotive and get BOTH ends of the crossover secured for movement. A lot of walking being done.
steve-in-kvilleDo railroad police have vehicles that are hi-railed?
They may on some properties. Not on CSX. Hi-rail vehicles are most all assigned within the various MofW crafts.
Most likely scenario would be a special agent out with a trainmaster, RFE or Supt. in the Superintendent's hi-rail. (then again, certain operating supervisors were a threat to the long term servicability of the hi-rail, especially shunts)
I'm not sure I've ever seen a special agent in a rules class FWIW. I've had special agents in hi-rails with me, most notably during the LA King riots on the old ATSF Harbor District.
Hi-rail as a pursuit vehicle?
mudchickenHi-rail as a pursuit vehicle?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DsrgcgPuUIo
Doubles as a strike weapon laser-guided from surveillance drones, too!
I know a RR police truck that is an unmarked white Ram 1500 (it may even have just the RR logo on the doors - I can't remember). Looks like the 56,000,000 other MOW trucks - well until he turns on the visor lights. Sneaky, sneaky.
Overmod mudchicken Hi-rail as a pursuit vehicle? Hold my beer. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DsrgcgPuUIo Doubles as a strike weapon laser-guided from surveillance drones, too!
mudchicken Hi-rail as a pursuit vehicle?
Hold my beer.
I'll see your early 20th Century rockets and raise to 21st Century rockets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZziLcP7wzy8
(when they (hi-rails) are off the rail and used as a street vehicle, they tend to be pushing the GVW limits, can't turn, ride worse then a lumber wagon, hardly stop on a dime and wallow wherever they go.)
Does the german car have any on-rail whoa capability?
mudchicken(when they (hi-rails) are off the rail and used as a street vehicle, they tend to be pushing the GVW limits, can't turn, ride worse then a lumber wagon, hardly stop on a dime and wallow wherever they go.)
We didn't learn from Christie, we didn't learn from Evans, we didn't even learn from Brandt. Now we have junk sold at premium prices and no one seems to get it.
Note that the British know in principle how to get drive and steering and guiding all stable up to 100mph. There is no real reason that can't be done with something the dimensions of an F350 longbed-- if we acknowledge the front wheels will not be rickety standard gauge apart, and there will be spacers and 'stability duals' (with road tread only) spaced far enough outboard to clear any self-guiding wings or other weird projections. Only the onboard rear duals go on the rail -- and they have dynamic pressure modulation so shock doesn't bounce them. (If Schneider OTR can do it, why not conversion makers)
Nobody seems to want to put any kind of sensible low-mass guiding axle a la Auto-Railer on the front. Instead we get this primitive Fairmont stuff with heavy cast parts that take the polar moment of inertia for both ride and steering through the roof, but ride like a speeder. Even if you had track wheels that folded like aircraft landing gear you could do better. And there are ways to augment railhead following and clearing/conditioning. I'm as firmly convinced as the Germans were half a century ago that any light rail vehicle requires magnetic track brakes. One pair of rubber tires doing traction and braking is NOT going to get it... even at 45mph.
I suspect that as soon as PSR gets to considering what 'superconductors' or rapid-response maintenance crews actually need, including for drone support, there will be a market for better truck running quality even if the things cost more. All you have to do is show how they'll make money where it counts, and not lose it where it hurts.
Now what you actually build is not a pickup, but a low-floor 'mobile office' (originally designed for stand-up office and workroom service in a form that can be driven in and out of parking garages). Climate-controlled sleeper berths and RV features for little more than pickup price, and lower operating cost.
[/quote]Does the german car have any on-rail whoa capability?[/quote]Have you never heard of retro-rockets? Anyway, it stops nearly on a dime after it derails, or as you see in the last frame of the video. Most perps would learn to start running when they hear it, as fragmentation range may be well north of a quarter mile...
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