This just pinged in from the Prime Ministers Office:
February 20, 2020Ottawa, Ontario
Note: All times local
The Prime Minister will convene the Incident Response Group to discuss the current blockades, support for families of victims of the Ukraine International Airlines tragedy in Iran and the coronavirus situation.
Closed to media.
Private meetings.
So, it's an item to be 'discussed' tomorrow along with 2 other items.
My suggestions... send in the Albertans.
I think this whole situation is destined to end in violence, just like Oka.
By now the Ontario protesters have gotten used to being allowed to break the law, and have dug in too deep. I don't think they will settle for less than what they really want, and true settlement of land disputes cannot happen overnight, even if the Federal government agrees that is needed. Eventually the police will HAVE to go in and clear the way, except now they have mountains to move instead of a couple molehills, which is how this all started.
I hope I am wrong.
FYI - Pipeline construction is in full swing out here, on GasLink, Trans-Mountain, and several other large projects between Edmonton, Grande Prairie, and northeastern BC. We are still shipping large amounts of pipe, in fact, I met a X347 (Winnipeg-Prince George manifest) that had about 60 massive flatcars (93' long) of 36'' or 48'' pipe.
Ironically, that train did not get held up by any protesters.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I too think it is likely to turn violent. This protest is actually already an extreme act of violence. The protesters are emboldened and they will see themselves as having gained a lot of ground. They are not going to let go of that sense of victory.
What seems unusual now is the sheer scale of disruption in the protests. Shutting down all the freight trains in half the country, and completely shutting down the entire national passenger train system covering all Canada. Then once they are shut down, all the goods they are supposed to be moving are just backing up in the system every day this blockade continues.
So along with the stopped train is all of the production and supply chain that goes with that train. Then there is the cost of layoffs not only on the railroads, but also in the entire chain of commerce. This seems like one heck of a protest. It is more like a besieging army trying to conquer a country. I think this could also spill over into the U.S.
Here is a good article about the cost of the railroad blockades. He does not give a dollar estimate, I suppose because nobody knows how long the blockades will last. But he does say it can quickly run into the billions of dollars, and it will take months longer to recover after the blockades come down.
https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/barry-prentice-the-high-costs-of-railroad-blockades-to-canadas-economy-and-reputation
Overall, this will be a staggering amount of real damage to the country all in the name of a so-called “peaceful protest.”
A very sobering article. The consequences of a government blinded and consumed by ideology far removed from any reality. Rational thinking falls on deaf ears. Ignorance, that is lack of knowledge, is the order on both sides and the vast vast majority on both sides look on in disbelief.
Our Union Head, a Doctor teaching in our Health Care program, has had enough and is moving his family to Australia. His wife and 4 young children are a serious loss to my community. He knows, we all do that these events will be never ending. It just gets darker.
Too bad about your Union Head, but I hope he's taken a good long look before he takes the leap. I learned a long time ago the grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side of the fence. It might be, and some times it is, but you better be sure.
No place is perfect, some are just less loused up than others.
And there's still little-to-no reporting about what's going on in Canada by the American press, at least not that I've seen. Go figure.
The Doc had it all lined up a few years ago, paperwork is done, a job is now lined up. Has some family in Perth. This was just the trigger that made that big decision happen, otherwise he was content. It was not a rash decision by any means. Well prepared people need an exit plan or a path to the future and this was his.
I'm not sure why its taking so long to remove the RCMP from Wet'suwet'en territory and get a meeting with the chiefs underway. We're going on three weeks into this and still not even a meeting arranged!! The chiefs can fly east to meet with the blockaders in Belleville, but for some reason our government cannot arrange a meeting with those same chiefs.. Maybe Trudeau could take a run down to Belleville on Saturday.. the chiefs will be there! Belleville is a four hour drive from Ottawa.. all of it on four lane. Show up with your Marc Miller.. he seems to be a reasonable guy. Good heavens.. this is not a moonshot!
SD70Dude I think this whole situation is destined to end in violence, just like Oka. By now the Ontario protesters have gotten used to being allowed to break the law, and have dug in too deep. I don't think they will settle for less than what they really want, and true settlement of land disputes cannot happen overnight, even if the Federal government agrees that is needed. Eventually the police will HAVE to go in and clear the way, except now they have mountains to move instead of a couple molehills, which is how this all started. I hope I am wrong. FYI - Pipeline construction is in full swing out here, on GasLink, Trans-Mountain, and several other large projects between Edmonton, Grande Prairie, and northeastern BC. We are still shipping large amounts of pipe, in fact, I met a X347 (Winnipeg-Prince George manifest) that had about 60 massive flatcars (93' long) of 36'' or 48'' pipe. Ironically, that train did not get held up by any protesters.
Likely so. Tempers are frayed. We've had near misses with trucks running around blockades... just a matter of time before someone gets run over and this whole thing blows up. Let's hope we see some major developments today and over the weekend.
EuclidHere is a good article about the cost of the railroad blockades. He does not give a dollar estimate, I suppose because nobody knows how long the blockades will last. But he does say it can quickly run into the billions of dollars, and it will take months longer to recover after the blockades come down. https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/barry-prentice-the-high-costs-of-railroad-blockades-to-canadas-economy-and-reputation Overall, this will be a staggering amount of real damage to the country all in the name of a so-called “peaceful protest.”
The above linked article is strange - the author claims that the blockades couldn't come at a worse time of year. Then he goes on to explain that traffic was already slow and declining, that its cold out and trains have to be shorter, that there was a mandated slowdown for hazardous material, etc.
But those are all excellent reasons (from a railway's point of view) as to why this is probably the best time for a shutdown (if it has to happen).
When would be a better time? Middle of summer? Just before Christmas? Sometime in the spring? Everyone agrees a shutdown is bad.
I thought the agreement was that the blockades would be taken down if the RCMP pulled out of the native territory, and then a meeting would be held. Has this changed so that the holding of the meeting is also a condtion of taking down the blockades? Will it also evolve so that the conditions put forth in the meeting by the hereditary chiefs must be met before the blockades come down?
My bet is that the blockades stay up for several more weeks at minimum.
That's the deal... but things are moving along at a glacial pace.. we're going on three weeks into this and they're only now getting around to pulling the police out and convening a meeting. At this rate the blockades will remain up until the Spring of 2022..
Should be noted that CP lines aren't blockaded.. rail critical shipments can still get through to the east albeit with delays due to volumes.
Trudeau said this:
“I know that people’s patience is running short. We need to find a solution and we need to find it now,” Trudeau told parliament on Tuesday. The dispute should be settled by “dialogue and mutual respect” and not through force, he added.
If both sides used only dialogue and mutual respect, there would not be any blockades. Trudeau renounces the use of force, yet the blockades are force. This is most certainly NOT a peaceful protest.
Exactly!
Worth an encore https://youtu.be/MPMmC0UAnj0
EuclidIf both sides used only dialogue and mutual respect, there would not be any blockades. Trudeau renounces the use of force, yet the blockades are force. This is most certainly NOT a peaceful protest.
At least so far they haven't destroyed any property that I've heard of. Nor have they strong-armed their way into anything, say taking over a toll booth by force, or torn up any track or other infrastructure. As disruptive as they have been, the protests have been peaceful.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Euclid If both sides used only dialogue and mutual respect, there would not be any blockades. Trudeau renounces the use of force, yet the blockades are force. This is most certainly NOT a peaceful protest. At least so far they haven't destroyed any property that I've heard of. Nor have they strong-armed their way into anything, say taking over a toll booth by force, or torn up any track or other infrastructure. As disruptive as they have been, the protests have been peaceful.
Euclid If both sides used only dialogue and mutual respect, there would not be any blockades. Trudeau renounces the use of force, yet the blockades are force. This is most certainly NOT a peaceful protest.
Are you kidding? They have done billions of dollars of damage in stopping the productivity of trains, plus job losses on the railroads, and in the shutdown of commerce.
Euclid tree68 Euclid If both sides used only dialogue and mutual respect, there would not be any blockades. Trudeau renounces the use of force, yet the blockades are force. This is most certainly NOT a peaceful protest. At least so far they haven't destroyed any property that I've heard of. Nor have they strong-armed their way into anything, say taking over a toll booth by force, or torn up any track or other infrastructure. As disruptive as they have been, the protests have been peaceful. Are you kidding? They have done billions of dollars of damage in stopping the productivity of trains, plus job losses on the railroads, and in the shutdown of commerce.
Spilled blood is DAMAGE. Economic disruption is not.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Spilled blood is DAMAGE. Economic disruption is not.
In your dreams.
Yes, economic damage is still damage. But, like I said, no one has been physically hurt, no property has been physically damaged or destroyed, and while I'm sure that weapons have been displayed, to my knowledge they have not been used.
But when I think of a protest that's not peaceful, I think of brickbats and teargas, not barricades made of pallets.
I think the First Nations are smarter than that.
We're likely to see all that change over the weekend I'm afraid. The chiefs don't appear to be all that interested in sitting down to hash this out. The Prime Minister has hinted that avenues at peaceful discussion have been exhausted (although he leaves that door open). Next up are the police who are tasked with enforcing the injunctions. I don't know how effective they'll be. Most have never been in that type of a situation..Hopefully they canvass their ranks for the toughest officers on the force... don't send in officers who have spent the majority of their careers handing out speeding tickets and enforcing zoning regulations. As the PM stated, the military is not an option ... at least not yet. But if this escalates and enforcement officers and others get hurt all bets are off..
Maybe the CN police can help with the enforcement.. I haven't heard that idea put forth in the media. It's been either the RCMP, the QPP, or the OPP... no mention that CN has their own police force. Likely they too aren't equipped to deal with anything as serious as this.
I would not call this a peaceful protest. While it is true that a non-peaceful protest may rise to include violent conflict, when I think of the overall definition of a peaceful protest, I think of a protest that has no violation of law. Usually, that is protesters conveying a message in public from public property without any violent person-to-person contact, trespassing, or damage to property.
This protest is comprised of trespassing on private property, and subjecting train crews and the protesters to extreme danger of stopping and blockading the passage of freight trains. They have taken entire transportation corridors out of service, thus suspending the flow of goods needed to operate the county. It also includes the protesters threatening to increase this train interference, thus causing the railroads to voluntarily suspend train service on lines not yet blocked.
This illegal act is accruing a massive amount of economic damage to the country as transportation remains blocked, and someone will have to pay for the damage. It is not going to be the protesters who pay. It is the Canadian non-protesters who will pay the massive cost.
The fact that there has been no injury or death is fine, but that alone does not render the protest as being harmless. And, tensions will rise as long as this economic damage continues, so it may very well reach a tipping point where it becomes an armed conflict. It is certainly headed that way.
EuclidI would not call this a peaceful protest. While it is true that a non-peaceful protest may rise to include violent conflict, when I think of the overall definition of a peaceful protest, I think of a protest that has no violation of law. Usually, that is protesters conveying a message in public from public property without any violent person-to-person contact, trespassing, or damage to property. This protest is comprised of trespassing on private property, and subjecting train crews and the protesters to extreme danger of stopping and blockading the passage of freight trains. They have taken entire transportation corridors out of service, thus suspending the flow of goods needed to operate the county. It also includes the protesters threatening to increase this train interference, thus causing the railroads to voluntarily suspend train service on lines not yet blocked. This illegal act is accruing a massive amount of economic damage to the country as transportation remains blocked, and someone will have to pay for the damage. It is not going to be the protesters who pay. It is the Canadian non-protesters who will pay the massive cost. The fact that there has been no injury or death is fine, but that alone does not render the protest as being harmless. And, tensions will rise as long as this economic damage continues, so it may very well reach a tipping point where it becomes an armed conflict. It is certainly headed that way.
BaltACD Euclid I would not call this a peaceful protest. While it is true that a non-peaceful protest may rise to include violent conflict, when I think of the overall definition of a peaceful protest, I think of a protest that has no violation of law. Usually, that is protesters conveying a message in public from public property without any violent person-to-person contact, trespassing, or damage to property. This protest is comprised of trespassing on private property, and subjecting train crews and the protesters to extreme danger of stopping and blockading the passage of freight trains. They have taken entire transportation corridors out of service, thus suspending the flow of goods needed to operate the county. It also includes the protesters threatening to increase this train interference, thus causing the railroads to voluntarily suspend train service on lines not yet blocked. This illegal act is accruing a massive amount of economic damage to the country as transportation remains blocked, and someone will have to pay for the damage. It is not going to be the protesters who pay. It is the Canadian non-protesters who will pay the massive cost. The fact that there has been no injury or death is fine, but that alone does not render the protest as being harmless. And, tensions will rise as long as this economic damage continues, so it may very well reach a tipping point where it becomes an armed conflict. It is certainly headed that way. In your dreams.
Euclid I would not call this a peaceful protest. While it is true that a non-peaceful protest may rise to include violent conflict, when I think of the overall definition of a peaceful protest, I think of a protest that has no violation of law. Usually, that is protesters conveying a message in public from public property without any violent person-to-person contact, trespassing, or damage to property. This protest is comprised of trespassing on private property, and subjecting train crews and the protesters to extreme danger of stopping and blockading the passage of freight trains. They have taken entire transportation corridors out of service, thus suspending the flow of goods needed to operate the county. It also includes the protesters threatening to increase this train interference, thus causing the railroads to voluntarily suspend train service on lines not yet blocked. This illegal act is accruing a massive amount of economic damage to the country as transportation remains blocked, and someone will have to pay for the damage. It is not going to be the protesters who pay. It is the Canadian non-protesters who will pay the massive cost. The fact that there has been no injury or death is fine, but that alone does not render the protest as being harmless. And, tensions will rise as long as this economic damage continues, so it may very well reach a tipping point where it becomes an armed conflict. It is certainly headed that way.
You sound like Justin Trudeau walking on eggshells so as not to offend the native people as they shut down the country and demand ransom.
EuclidI would not call this a peaceful protest. While it is true that a non-peaceful protest may rise to include violent conflict, when I think of the overall definition of a peaceful protest, I think of a protest that has no violation of law. Usually, that is protesters conveying a message in public from public property without any violent person-to-person contact, trespassing, or damage to property.
"Manifest Destiny" wasn't exactly an invitation to join the glee club, either.
As reported in the NY Times the protest is about a "pipeline project that crosses the traditional territory of the Wet'suet'en First Nation near Houston, British Columbia."
Wasn't this project and its route hashed out in court before construction started? Was the project opposed by the Indians then? Couldn't this all have been foreseen?
How would non-Indians like it if another nation was forcing the building of such a project on their turf?
I think Canadians are a just and patient people. They will find a way out of this problem eventually and peaceably. It might not be fast enough for some here, but it will happen.
Then it should be accountability time for the short-sighted.
NKP guy I think Canadians are a just and patient people. They will find a way out of this problem eventually and peaceably. It might not be fast enough for some here, but it will happen.
I agree, ...it's amusing to watch "Ronnie Rightwing" living in Podunk USA shake his fist at the Canadian gov't and bemoan them for perceived incompetence for their patience.
Canada is it's own jurisdiction, with laws framed to address their specific priorities. For the time being this issue is bigger than railroading. Priorities can always change, but THAT is the reality at the moment.
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/conrad-black-canadas-government-has-abandoned-its-responsibility-to-lead
Convicted OneI agree, ...it's amusing to watch "Ronnie Rightwing" living in Podunk USA shake his fist at the Canadian gov't and bemoan them for perceived incompetence for their patience.
After reading quite a few articles, I'd say there are quite a few people in "Podunk Canada" who have an opinion, too. I know a few of them, and you'd be surprised that many of them are intelligent and educated, just like their betters in the cities.
York1 John
"Ronnie Rightwing" here in the USA? Unless I'm missing something I haven't seen much of anything in the American press about what's going on up in Canada, "Trains" magazine excepted. The only thing concerning Canada the American press seems to be interested in is where Harry and Megan are going to take up residence.
"Ronnie Rightwing" probably has no idea about Canada's problems, or if he does, it's because he's a "Trains" subscriber, and even then I haven't seen much of anything in the way of suggestions from our American posters here as to what the Canadian government should do about the crisis, and certainly no suggestions involving a violent response.
Most here have kept their mouths tightly shut as far as suggestions are concerned, and rightfully so, it's a Canadian internal matter for them to solve.
And to be fair, I haven't seen or heard any American "Louie Leftwings" forming cheering sections on this side of the border either.
Maybe they're too busy wondering where Harry and Megan are moving to as well?
PS: "Manifest Destiny" was never a term used in Canada, at least not to my knowledge. If any of our Canadian friends want to correct me on this please do so.
No, no Manifest Destiny. ... BUT we now have the Buffalo Declaration!
https://nationalpost.com/news/what-is-the-buffalo-declaration-and-why-did-they-call-it-buffalo?video_autoplay=true
This is rattling some nerves in the East.
Although I often don't agree with Conrad Black, he is spot on in his review of the situation and the federal government's response. The Wet'suwet'en have had plenty of opportunity to achieve a common coherent policy with respect to the pipeline. The herditary chiefs who are not elected are ignoring the wishes of the majority of elected band councils who have signed agreements for the construction of the Coastal GasLink pipeline.The herditary chiefs are not helping their cause by refusing to even meet with government ministers until the RCMP are removed from the construction access roads. This is not how you negoiate. Let us also not forget that 40% of the employees at the container port in Prince Rupert are indigineous workers. In order for indigineous groups to be participating in society in general while still maintainting their control they need to be willing partiipants in these projects either through payments of access rights or by partial ownership. This project does that through the signed agreements while protecting indigineous rights and the environment. The main thing that these protests show is that indigineous people are not different than non-indigeous peoples, they have a variety of views and opintions. The goverment needs to accept responsibility and force the removal of blockades.
The Mokawks of Tyendinaga between Kingston and Belleville, ON have a historical reputation of blocking the CN tracks for any sort of grievance, percieved or otherwise. Showing solidarity with the Wet'suwet'en who are 4,500 km away using blockades is totally unacceptable. The police have unfortunately only practice selective policing by only removing protestors when they try to shut down Highway 401, the main highway between Toronto and Montreal. Train service whether it is passenger or freight doesn't seem to be important in the eyes of the Ontario Provincial Police.
This is a natural gas pipeline and not an oil pipeline so any breakage would result in miniscule environmental damage compared to an oil pipeline break. I can speak of this first hand having experienced a Trans-Canada Pipeline explodsion in Huntsville, ON approximately 50 years ago.
While idigineous people have many things to compain about and many rights have been trampled on by the government and the rest of Canadian society this is not the way to resolve those issues. The current government has made substantial progress on some of these issues.
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