Getting worse , not better.
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-climate-zealots-have-taken-canada-hostage-and-our-pm-is-missing-in-action
From what I read, the tribal government has already given the OK to the pipeline. The protesters started with hereditary chiefs who don't agree with their own tribe. How did this internal tribal disagreement become a national crisis?
Rex Murphy, the link above your post, explains that very well.
Euclid Ulrich According to the news we get here the Federal government is interested in building the pipeline and getting Alberta oil to tidewater. The West does have a voice in Ottawa albeit from the opposition benches. The Liberals are trying to breach the divide, but one should expect regional disagreements in a large country like Canada. And of course there's always the next election.. the Liberals have a tenuous minority.. we 519 and 905 ers are not enthralled with them either. CN and VIA really have very little to do with this dispute.. they (and their customers) are mostly collateral damage. The powers involved are treading softly as no one wants to be seen as trampling on indigenous rights.. if it was me and my neighbours blockading the rail line because we aren't happy with our property taxes you can be sure we'd be in jail right now. No OPP cigars.. no jabbering, no pleading for us to go home.. it would be cuffs and a jail cell licketysplit. Okay, I see. So even if the protest was about the railroads, they would not have the right to block the trains. But, in this case, the railroad role is not even the subject of the protest. So it is as if they are illegally holding the railroads hostage to getting a pledge to not build the pipeline. It is amazing that the government allows this damage to the country.
Ulrich According to the news we get here the Federal government is interested in building the pipeline and getting Alberta oil to tidewater. The West does have a voice in Ottawa albeit from the opposition benches. The Liberals are trying to breach the divide, but one should expect regional disagreements in a large country like Canada. And of course there's always the next election.. the Liberals have a tenuous minority.. we 519 and 905 ers are not enthralled with them either. CN and VIA really have very little to do with this dispute.. they (and their customers) are mostly collateral damage. The powers involved are treading softly as no one wants to be seen as trampling on indigenous rights.. if it was me and my neighbours blockading the rail line because we aren't happy with our property taxes you can be sure we'd be in jail right now. No OPP cigars.. no jabbering, no pleading for us to go home.. it would be cuffs and a jail cell licketysplit.
According to the news we get here the Federal government is interested in building the pipeline and getting Alberta oil to tidewater. The West does have a voice in Ottawa albeit from the opposition benches. The Liberals are trying to breach the divide, but one should expect regional disagreements in a large country like Canada. And of course there's always the next election.. the Liberals have a tenuous minority.. we 519 and 905 ers are not enthralled with them either.
CN and VIA really have very little to do with this dispute.. they (and their customers) are mostly collateral damage. The powers involved are treading softly as no one wants to be seen as trampling on indigenous rights.. if it was me and my neighbours blockading the rail line because we aren't happy with our property taxes you can be sure we'd be in jail right now. No OPP cigars.. no jabbering, no pleading for us to go home.. it would be cuffs and a jail cell licketysplit.
Okay, I see. So even if the protest was about the railroads, they would not have the right to block the trains. But, in this case, the railroad role is not even the subject of the protest. So it is as if they are illegally holding the railroads hostage to getting a pledge to not build the pipeline. It is amazing that the government allows this damage to the country.
Yup.
These protesters wouldn't last 5 minutes if they tried blocking a highway or airport runway. But apparently trains are ok to hold up.
For what it's worth, CN got an extension to their anti-protester injunction today. The judge expressed frustration with the Ontario Provincial Police's failure to enact it, saying that it is not supposed to be used as lever to open conversations between the police and protesters. Rather, he said, it is meant to bring unlawful conduct to an end.
The judge said the OPP should arrest and charge the protesters and hand over the names of the protesters to CN so it can pursue civil litigation for damages.
CN has started re-routing some Montreal-Toronto trains over Ontario Northland and the northern Quebec branchlines, which adds over 700 miles to the journey.
Probably the first time doublestacks have ever been in Rouyn-Noranda....
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
The ONR could sure use that windfall... wow doubkestacks in Swastika!
I'm doubling my lottery ticket purchases, the impossible has arrived.
" Allright kid, you're up, knock it outta the park"
I do not support this blocking of CN. However i have to wonder if this is not about the pipeline. If this was the US I would believe it is an indication of frustration of the federal government not living up to its treaty agreements. Is that what has gone on in Canada as well ?
The rule of law should also apply to the government ?
SD70DudeBut apparently trains are ok to hold up.
That goes to the public's awareness of trains - "they still run those things?"
They'll notice when they can't get their morning bagel...
Or not.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The one thing that has always intrigued me about the perception of protests and how they are enacted and percieved.
Those not involved in the protest always want the protests to take place in a place and at a time when no one can see, hear or be affected by the protest.
The whole purpose of a protest is the GET ATTENTION BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
blue streak 1 wrote: If this was the US I would believe it is an indication of frustration of the federal government not living up to its treaty agreements. Is that what has gone on in Canada as well ?
I think that you hit the nail pretty squarely on the head wth that one. Plus the Canadians have that 319.2 thing in their criminal code that effectively places the majority on thin ice in such matters.
SD70DudeThese protesters wouldn't last 5 minutes if they tried blocking a highway or airport runway. But apparently trains are ok to hold up.
While there have been some short term closures of highways in this protest, some years ago the Nipigon, Ontario bridge (reportedly the only link between east and West Canada) was IIRC shut down by first nation protesters for about 3 days.
Thank You.
The pipeline company's response to the alternative route proposal:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/wetsuweten-coastal-gaslink-pipeline-alternative-path-1.5464945
I had a look at the route Coastal GasLink has chosen on Google Earth. It is already used by a high-voltage transmission line and access road, and much of the area has been disturbed by clear-cut logging.
The Wet'suwet'en's chiefs' proposed route would go through much more virgin territory.
Americans (U.S.) shouldn't get too 'high and mighty' about the lack of reaction by the Ontario Provincal Police to remove the blockades.
Remember about 6 months ago the coal miners in Kentucky(?) who blockaded a siding into a coal mine and held a coal train - including several CSX locomotives - 'hostage' because they were owed pay from the coal mining company that went bankrupt? There too the local/ state police did nothing to remove the blockade despite a court order, as I recall.
I wonder how and when that ended?
- PDN.
Paul_D_North_Jr Americans (U.S.) shouldn't get too 'high and mighty' about the lack of reaction by the Ontario Provincal Police to remove the blockades. Remember about 6 months ago the coal miners in Kentucky(?) who blockaded a siding into a coal mine and held a coal train - including several CSX locomotives - 'hostage' because they were owed pay from the coal mining company that went bankrupt? There too the local/ state police did nothing to remove the blockade despite a court order, as I recall. I wonder how and when that ended? - PDN.
Paul:
In both instances the miners allowed CSX to remove the locomotives so; the engines weren't "held hostage".
I would also submit that miners preventing the movement of coal they had mined but; not been paid for is completely different than what is happening in Canada right now.
Paul_D_North_Jr blockade
Russell
The blockade in Kentucky did not shut down the rail system in half the country and most of the passenger service. Also the Canadian dispute is between two factions of the same tribe. Their protest should be taking place at their own territory.
BaltACD The one thing that has always intrigued me about the perception of protests and how they are enacted and percieved. Those not involved in the protest always want the protests to take place in a place and at a time when no one can see, hear or be affected by the protest. The whole purpose of a protest is the GET ATTENTION BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE.
Bringing public attention to one's cause through peaceful protest is fine..i.e. marching in front of the parliament buildings..staging a protest on public property..in front of public buildings etc. However there is a line in the sand.. In the 70s you'll remember certain groups kidnapping and ultimately murdering people in protest. The FLQ in Quebec is an example which springs to mind. Hi-jacking aircraft was at that time also used as a means of protest.. And let's not forget 911...which ultimately was an act of protest against our Western values and way of life.
Getting back to the situation at hand: the blockade remains today because our leadership is weak and indecisive..And no one seems to have the grit and the balls to do what needs to be done. Thus, as of this evening, we have protests springing up elsewhere.. in PEI they're blockading truck traffic on the Confederation Bridge. The blockaders are emboldened by the weakness shown by our leaders..Decisive action at the outset would have brought this to a quick ending.
Well stated Ulrich. CN has announced 1,000 temporary layoffs. The government has announced they will take no action outside of negotiations. Nothing up here ..YET... but I expect trouble if things continue on this path. My town is 89-92% Native population. We have our share of hotheads.
There is trouble in Saskatoon and Regina. Mostly environmentalists, young urban types painting their faces with oil and such.
I think I mentioned somewhere, facetiously - as I do now - that it won't be important to many people until they can't get their breakfast bagel. But that's what it's going to take.
In some ways, the government's inaction is a good thing for the government. If they take action now, they're the bad guys. If they wait until the public is up in arms, they become saviours.
Something even the indigenous peoples sometimes forget is that, in many cases, they were once conquerors, too.
The government has a job to enforce the law, and they don’t have the luxury of waiting for the people to insist the job be done.
The government has a job to enforce the law,
Yes, but they have a multitude of Laws to enforce, including those that protect the rights of the protesters.
They dare not act in such a way that might be construed as "hate" to a protected group. And "hate" is a term that can be interpreted in many creative ways, so they must be careful.
Waiting for public sentiment to snowball on the government's side appears to be the smart strategy to me.
Convicted One Euclid wrote the following post an hour ago: The government has a job to enforce the law, Yes, but they have a multitude of Laws to enforce, including those that protect the rights of the protesters. They dare not act in such a way that might be construed as "hate" to a protected group. And "hate" is a term that can be interpreted in many creative ways, so they must be careful. Waiting for public sentiment to snowball on the government's side appears to be the smart strategy to me.
Why should the public have to bear cost in waiting for public sentiment to snowball on the governmen's side?
If public sentiment snowballs into propelling a govnernment crackdown, will the protesters not perceive that as hate?
Allowing this to "snowball" seems reckless and dangerous to me.
Euclid Why can't the govnerment just follow the laws that enforce the rights of the protesters, and not worry about how that appears?
Don't "I" have rights as a citizen of the country? Shouldn't those be enforced, too?
EuclidIf public sentiment snowballs into propelling a government crackdown, will the protesters not perceive that as hate?
Certainly. The difference is who it is the protesters feel is doing the "hating."
There are certainly everyday citizens who support the protests. And there are just as certainly everyday citizens who want them to end. The tip-over will be when the supporting side tires of the inconveniences the protests bring and stop supporting it.
Either way, the government can point fingers and say "listen, we let you have your say, but now the populace is getting restless, so this has to end."
Euclid wrote the following post 26 minutes ago:
What if the protected group wants to make it be construed as hate? What if they want to use that tactic as leverage in the dispute? Why can't the govnerment just follow the laws that enforce the rights of the protesters, and not worry about how that appears?
Euclid, can I suggest that you review the Criminal Code of Canada?
http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/cc/cc.html
Specific to the first paragraph above section 319.2 explains "why".
And specific to the second paragraph above section 319.3c explains "how"
By waiting they are nurturing the "public interest" aspect, allowing it to grow sufficient that they can comfortably work within it's confines.
tree68There are certainly everyday citizens who support the protests. And there are just as certainly everyday citizens who want them to end.
And you will note that 319 (1)(3)(c) neatly covers their right to comment on the 'situation' as they see fit, as long as they avoid purely prejudiced statements about the protestors -- I don't see any problem in determining more or less objectively what would, or wouldn't, constitute hate speech in the context of the blockages. It would be very important to those who wish the problem to end not to use racial or other slurs in confronting protestors. I suspect that line is likely to be increasingly crossed as this situation develops and the copycat 'me-tooers' see how very much like Gorbachev and Ceausescu the official response is seen to be.
It does have to be said that, as in any other res-publica democracy, the rights of the different 'stakeholders' in a controversy like this have to be considered (and, at least theoretically, some compromise action, preferably Pareto-optimal, would be reached as a Government response and then amended 'from time to time'. The problem no one has addressed directly is that the 'right' to ride a passenger train on time, or receive freight carried by rail without delay, is not particularly high on the protected-civil-rights list of priorities -- and this has to be balanced against the semantically-different question of whether statutory trespass on private property and interference in a business relationship will be prosecuted in time. It might be interesting to see the effect both on protest groups and on the cohorts that support them were a couple of good class-action suits on demonstrable grounds filed over this.
This is the best take on it I've read yet ...from our former Ambassador to the USA during the Reagan/Mulroney years.
Thinking Euclid would find this exceptional. Either in one way or the other.
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/derek-h-burney-enough-is-enough-clear-the-blockades-restore-the-rule-of-law
Convicted One Euclid wrote the following post 26 minutes ago: What if the protected group wants to make it be construed as hate? What if they want to use that tactic as leverage in the dispute? Why can't the govnerment just follow the laws that enforce the rights of the protesters, and not worry about how that appears? If public sentiment snowballs into propelling a govnernment crackdown, will the protesters not perceive that as hate? Euclid, can I suggest that you review the Criminal Code of Canada? http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/cc/cc.html Specific to the first paragraph above section 319.2 explains "why". And specific to the second paragraph above section 319.3c explains "how" By waiting they are nurturing the "public interest" aspect, allowing it to grow sufficient that they can comfortably work within it's confines.
I read the law that you cite. How does this apply to government officers arresting protesters engaged in blockading trains?
Miningman This is the best take on it I've read yet ...from our former Ambassador to the USA during the Reagan/Mulroney years. Thinking Euclid would find this exceptional. Either in one way or the other. https://nationalpost.com/opinion/derek-h-burney-enough-is-enough-clear-the-blockades-restore-the-rule-of-law
Yes, that is exactly how I look at this issue. He lays it out very well.
Euclid wrote the following post an hour ago:
How does this apply to government officers arresting protesters engaged in blockading trains?
"Hatred" is subect to a multitude of interpretations, (we could burn up an entire thread just recounting how that has been done) and I guess those government officers you mention are reluctant to cast themselves as hypocrites?
It's a dicey issue where psuedo democracies have sworn to protect the rights of the few over the rights of the majority.....it's entertaining in a slapstick "stomp on your own foot" sort of way. But that is reality.
I see now where they are claiming these blockades have backlogged more than 40ships attempting to dock for unloading in the port of Vancouver
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/port-vancouver-backlog-rail-blockades-1.5466069
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