243129 Murphy Siding I'm not sure I understand what automated addiction means. Can you explain? This can apply to railroad engineers also. https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/automation-addiction-pilots-forgetting-fly/story?id=14417730 When I retired in 2014 there was a dearth of engineers who were not lost when these systems, ATC,PTC etc. failed.
Murphy Siding I'm not sure I understand what automated addiction means. Can you explain?
This can apply to railroad engineers also.
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/automation-addiction-pilots-forgetting-fly/story?id=14417730
When I retired in 2014 there was a dearth of engineers who were not lost when these systems, ATC,PTC etc. failed.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I have no idea if the CN has changed the disttricts between Memphis and New Orleans or not, but 50 years ago, the Louisiana Division had two districts between Gwin and New Orleans. All crews were based in McComb, which is 150 miles from Gwin and right at 100 miles from New Orleans. Chaingang crews preferred being called for a run to Gwin over a run to New Orleans. At that time the ETT showed three freights a day each way on this run. Through freights ran through the Mississippi Delta above Jackson; passenger trains and locals ran through Grenada. (Amtrak trains run through the Delta.)
Johnny
zugmann Euclid There are people who go through life getting around the problem of making a mistake by believing that if make a decision, it cannot be a mistake. Vet for that personality trait.
Euclid There are people who go through life getting around the problem of making a mistake by believing that if make a decision, it cannot be a mistake. Vet for that personality trait.
Seems as if some of those types frequent this forum.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
EuclidThere are people who go through life getting around the problem of making a mistake by believing that if make a decision, it cannot be a mistake. Vet for that personality trait.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Euclid Vetting seems to require selecting only those job candidates with the so-called, Right stuff. But how do you define that term? In the case of the conductor in this Cayce accident, he held out against the doubt of his engineer about the switch position for some time in addition to the final drama starting only minutes prior to the disaster. They had all the time in the world to settle the question by taking a 600 ft. walk to see the switch. But somehow, the issue was left to fester along through confusion over the official Switch Awareness Form and protocol, and the lack of any recent experience with that process. Somehow, they got the job done and released the track back to the dispatcher. The details about this reporting and release of track authority seem lacking in the NTSF report, apparently because they have shifted much of the burden of this onto the CSX Company itself rather than the two employees working on the freight crew. But as far as knowing what to vet for, The conductor did not have enough conviction to question whether he really knew he had restored the switch. But he had too much conviction when it came to believing he was correct simply because he had made that decision. For some people, changing their mind is something they regard as a sign of weakness. There are people who go through life getting around the problem of making a mistake by believing that if make a decision, it cannot be a mistake. Vet for that personality trait.
Vetting seems to require selecting only those job candidates with the so-called, Right stuff. But how do you define that term?
In the case of the conductor in this Cayce accident, he held out against the doubt of his engineer about the switch position for some time in addition to the final drama starting only minutes prior to the disaster. They had all the time in the world to settle the question by taking a 600 ft. walk to see the switch. But somehow, the issue was left to fester along through confusion over the official Switch Awareness Form and protocol, and the lack of any recent experience with that process. Somehow, they got the job done and released the track back to the dispatcher.
The details about this reporting and release of track authority seem lacking in the NTSF report, apparently because they have shifted much of the burden of this onto the CSX Company itself rather than the two employees working on the freight crew.
But as far as knowing what to vet for, The conductor did not have enough conviction to question whether he really knew he had restored the switch. But he had too much conviction when it came to believing he was correct simply because he had made that decision. For some people, changing their mind is something they regard as a sign of weakness. There are people who go through life getting around the problem of making a mistake by believing that if make a decision, it cannot be a mistake. Vet for that personality trait.
That's a good point. A good psychologist could design questions that would indicate that trait.
Along the same lines are people who refuse to say "I don't know." I was recently on a tour of a steam locomotive shop. The (volunteer) guide showed us a piston that was sitting on a rack. The piston had grooves in it. I asked if those grooves were for piston rings. He looked slightly disconcerted, then said, "Steam locomotives did not have piston rings." When I then moved from behind some other tourists to get a better view, I could see some piston rings sitting right next to the piston. (At least I am 99.9% sure that's what they were; they were big honkin versions of the kind in a car engine, and looked like just the right size.) I've met lots of people who when they don't know an answer, they just make one up. It can be very frustrating.
But as far as knowing what to vet for, The conductor did not have enough conviction to question whether he really knew he had restored the switch. But he had too much conviction when it came to believing he was correct simply because he had made that decision. For some people, changing their mind is something they regard as a sign of weakness. There are people who go through life getting around the problem of making a mistake by believing that if they make a decision, it cannot be a mistake. Vet for that personality trait.
I have some agreements/rules and rates of pay from the Rock Island, North Western and Burlington. Most regulated passenger service to a maximum of 4000 miles a month, pool freight (aka the 'chain gang') between 3200 and 3800 miles a month, extra boards between 2600 and 3800 miles. (There's some slight difference between the three, the miles stated are a composite.) The mileages are for regulating the number on a specific board. They weren't a guarantee.
When a person made the maximum monthly mileage, they were to be laid off for the remainder of the month. When the board (pool or extra) started to average at or above the maximum, turns were supposed to be added. When the average dropped below the minimum, turns were supposed to be cut. These numbers were adopted in an agreement dating to the late 1920's. For us, and I think others too, these mileage provisions have been superceded by newer agreements.
Jeff
Edit. The passenger miles should read 4800 per month.
BaltACD Deggesty As for the fixed basic miles for a day's work, passenger trainmen ordinarily had a 150 mile day. About 50 years ago, i rode the night train from Atlanta to Nashville; going into Nashville, the conductor told me of the discrepancy between his assignment (Chatttanooga-Nashville) and the assignment of the crew he relieved in Chattanooga (Atlanta-Chattanooga) The other crew received a full day's pay for the 134 miles they ran--and he received only a day's pay for the 153 miles that he ran. Passenger service had a totally different basis for their 'standard day'. I don't know what the exact terms were - but they were different than freight. Additionally on the B&O Passenger and Freight had different crew change districts. This was all based on the higher speeds that passenger trains were operated at.
Deggesty As for the fixed basic miles for a day's work, passenger trainmen ordinarily had a 150 mile day. About 50 years ago, i rode the night train from Atlanta to Nashville; going into Nashville, the conductor told me of the discrepancy between his assignment (Chatttanooga-Nashville) and the assignment of the crew he relieved in Chattanooga (Atlanta-Chattanooga) The other crew received a full day's pay for the 134 miles they ran--and he received only a day's pay for the 153 miles that he ran.
Passenger service had a totally different basis for their 'standard day'. I don't know what the exact terms were - but they were different than freight. Additionally on the B&O Passenger and Freight had different crew change districts. This was all based on the higher speeds that passenger trains were operated at.
All the passenger stuff is still in our agreement, even though CN crews operate few, if any passenger trains these days.
Basic day is 150 miles, compared to 100 for freight.
Passenger crews will work up to 6450 miles per month, compared to 4300 for freight, and 3800 for Engineers.
Passenger crews are paid less per mile than freight crews, but due to the greater mileage a Passenger Conductor would make more money than a Through Freight Conductor if both worked their full mileages.
Passenger train crews on CN would work three subdivisions on transcontinental trains, as an example the same crew would work through from Vancouver to Blue River, BC, where they would be replaced by a Edmonton-based crew. Engine crews on the same trains would only work one subdivision.
This is the 2005 revision of the CN West CTY (Conductors, Trainmen, Yardmen) Agreement, covering employees west of Armstrong, ON. I believe all the passenger stuff is still current.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnx0Y3JjY3R5eWFyZHxneDoxZDY5NmZiMGU0Mzg4NzZh
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Thanks.
Lithonia OperatorWhat does T&E stand for? Transportation and ... ?
Transportation and ... ?
Train (Conductors & Brakemen) & Enginemen (Engineers and Firemen).
What does T&E stand for?
BaltACDAny T&E employee that makes it past the probationary period of their employment knows to the penny what they are owed by the company pay period to pay period - even if they need two witnesses to their making their mark.
I have an engineer's personal log book from the 1950's. In addition to such interesting things as the engine numbers he ran, and where he was working out of, was that last item in each entry - how much he would be paid for that day.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
DeggestyAs for the fixed basic miles for a day's work, passenger trainmen ordinarily had a 150 mile day. About 50 years ago, i rode the night train from Atlanta to Nashville; going into Nashville, the conductor told me of the discrepancy between his assignment (Chatttanooga-Nashville) and the assignment of the crew he relieved in Chattanooga (Atlanta-Chattanooga) The other crew received a full day's pay for the 134 miles they ran--and he received only a day's pay for the 153 miles that he ran.
As for the fixed basic miles for a day's work, passenger trainmen ordinarily had a 150 mile day. About 50 years ago, i rode the night train from Atlanta to Nashville; going into Nashville, the conductor told me of the discrepancy between his assignment (Chatttanooga-Nashville) and the assignment of the crew he relieved in Chattanooga (Atlanta-Chattanooga) The other crew received a full day's pay for the 134 miles they ran--and he received only a day's pay for the 153 miles that he ran.
The 100 mile was a minimum, not a maximum. It was derived from travelling 8 hours at 12 1/2 mph. It is still used for locals and yard jobs. The wording was 8 hours or less, 100 miles or less constitutes a basic day. It means you get paid the 8 hours or 100 miles even if the time/miles of the job are less.
The current basic day, has been that way since January 1, 1995, is 130 miles. We have one run that is actually 108 miles, but pays 130. The basic day.
Miles over the 100/130 are paid at a slightly different rate, called overmiles. It's not overtime. Overtime for runs up to 100/130 begins at 8 hours. For runs over the basic mileage, overtime begins when the time on duty exceeds the miles run divided by 12.5 for 100 miles, 16.25 for 130 miles. On some runs, it's possible not to make overtime. Our East Pool for example is 197 miles. Overtime begins after being 12 hours and 07 minutes on duty. You have to expire on your hours of service before getting overtime. And it happens.
Some railroads have gone to hourly pay rates. Most (talking those with a union contract) that I'm aware of have gone to 10 hours or less for a basic day. However, those contracts have also loosened up work rules so that if you have time left when you arrive at your destination, they can have you do other things. Like switch your own train out, do air tests on other trains, etc. They can have you do that now, but without the loosened work rules it would be a violation of the contract and crews could put in penalty claims. Also those who lose out because a crew is doing work that contractualy belongs to someone else, can also put in a penalty claim. EHH liked hourly pay. Especially when it loosens the work restrictions. You need less people on the payroll when you can have one crew do road and yard work without penalty.
Yard jobs usually pays less than road jobs. However, they also usually have assigned start times and assigned days off. They either require some seniority or little seniority to hold. That is, at a home terminal they might go high. An outlaying yard job (or local job) that no one wants usually goes the the engineer with the least seniority.
We've lost a few employees who quit rather than work as engineers. They were conductors, at the high end of the trainmen's roster who had gone to engine service but had been set back to conductors for a few years. When they originally went into engine service, engineers could set themselves back to conductors at their home terminal if they couldn't hold an engineer's slot there. After a complaint from the trainmen, it was determined there was no agreement allowing engineers to do so. So now, engineers have to 'chase' their seniority over the entire district. This can force the youngest (seniority wise) into working 200 or more miles from home. Often jobs that don't pay the most, don't make much overtime, and don't provide lodging allowances.
Electroliner 1935 BaltACD Monthly a notice is published which presents the earnings averages on each advertised trip districts so that employees can make informed decisions on the earning potential of each of the trip districts. I always remember back in the fifties when I was working with the Signal & Communications gangs, when the pay checks were distributed, we would load up the truck and drive to the bank. The men (and they were all men) during regular job work professed to have NO math skills, but when they got their checks, they somehow knew if the amount they were expecting did not show onthe check. I was salaried and was not an issue for me. My question for jeff and other T&E men, is there a base pay for those on the extra board or if the number of starts falls, how do they subsist?
BaltACD Monthly a notice is published which presents the earnings averages on each advertised trip districts so that employees can make informed decisions on the earning potential of each of the trip districts.
I always remember back in the fifties when I was working with the Signal & Communications gangs, when the pay checks were distributed, we would load up the truck and drive to the bank. The men (and they were all men) during regular job work professed to have NO math skills, but when they got their checks, they somehow knew if the amount they were expecting did not show onthe check. I was salaried and was not an issue for me.
My question for jeff and other T&E men, is there a base pay for those on the extra board or if the number of starts falls, how do they subsist?
Any T&E employee that makes it past the probationary period of their employment knows to the penny what they are owed by the company pay period to pay period - even if they need two witnesses to their making their mark.
BaltACDMonthly a notice is published which presents the earnings averages on each advertised trip districts so that employees can make informed decisions on the earning potential of each of the trip districts.
If you calculate what the effective hourly wage is for some younger salaried managers (given long work weeks) , it's sometimes less than minimum wage, a variation on pay to play. The hope for getting on the fast track is held out as a carrot. And if you don't put in the time, often even when you've already done more than all your work, your career is going nowhere.
DeggestyI may be wrong, but I have the impression that the salaried person is paid to get the job done--however long it takes.
Many salaries are related to the number of hours expected or required in performance of the work, and are based upon the hours a business is open or active. Naturally if you're in management you'll be arriving early ... perhaps very early, and leaving sometime later than close. This extra time is also factored into the compensation, or ought to be.
Where the abuse comes in is when 'the job' expands to fill other requirements, in fact sometimes even other job descriptions, with no increase in compensation. With the not-so-tacit understanding that if you won't work the extra time 'free', you'll either be fired on some fabricated ground or 'at-will' terminated when somebody else who will presents themself.
The real wage slaves are proper owners. Especially small-business owners. When anything doesn't get done right, guess who's there doing it. And that's without even the guarantee of a regular paycheck and, often, without full benefits.
I may be wrong, but I have the impression that the salaried person is paid to get the job done--however long it takes.
charlie hebdoMost of us when we were hourlies, except for some railroaders, did not get paid for a day's work for working less than eight hours. Indeed, as a young monthly-salaried manager in retail, we often worked 60+ hours, no time and a half overtime. The same is true for many young salaried workers today who want to get ahead, lest some on here think all millenials and gen Z folks are lazy.
The salaried - no matter the industry - are the true Wage Slaves. It is the company's way or the highway and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
charlie hebdoCreativity is lacking and badly needed. Just throwing up hands and saying nothing works because railroads are so unique is just an excuse to maintain the status quo. Questions: 1. The 100 mile day. Is that 19th century concept still the norm? If so, why? 2.Yard work v road duty. The pay basis should reflect the difference in jobs. Does it?
Questions:
1. The 100 mile day. Is that 19th century concept still the norm? If so, why?
2.Yard work v road duty. The pay basis should reflect the difference in jobs. Does it?
Being academic, you have no idea of all the different solutions that have been devised and tried....and all around the country new and different solutions are being thought of and implemented.
The 'basic day' was expanded over the years - last I recall was 128 miles; that is before my carrier abandoned that form of payment and went to trip rates between terminals. Many of the trips approximate 200 miles as crew districts have been changed over the years, mostly to reduce 'crew starts' and the resulting head count. A 240 mile Trip pays more than a 180 mile trip. T&E personel bid in the trips they desire to run based on seniority order. The trips can be on assigned trains with designated start times or they can be in Pool service that are called on a 'as needed' basis or any of a number of other conditions depending on the specific agreement that applies to the specific territory.
Monthly a notice is published which presents the earnings averages on each advertised trip districts so that employees can make informed decisions on the earning potential of each of the trip districts.
One thing I have learned on all the districts I have interacted with over the years - virtually no two districts want the exact same things as other districts. Local agreement addendums between the craft local and the company negotiate agreements that are agreeable to all the parties involved.
Most of us when we were hourlies, except for some railroaders, did not get paid for a day's work for working less than eight hours. Indeed, as a young monthly-salaried manager in retail, we often worked 60+ hours, no time and a half overtime. The same is true for many young salaried workers today who want to get ahead, lest some on here think all millenials and gen Z folks are lazy.
charlie hebdo1. The 100 mile day. Is that 19th century concept still the norm? If so, why?
Would you give up being paid for a full day's pay for working a three hour day? How long did it take to shed firemen?
Besides, as Balt notes, sometimes that three hour day turns into 12.
That said - crew districts may have lengthened. The career railroaders will have to address that.
Bear in mind that I'm taking a neutral position on that. I have no dog in the fight.
I get paid the same whether I work one hour or twelve.
charlie hebdo2.Yard work v road duty. The pay basis should reflect the difference in jobs. Does it?
Actually, I think it does.
mvlandswIf the CSX engineer had doubts about the switch position he could probably have called the Amtrak train directly on the radio.
Or the dispatcher.
But consider this: he had already 'signed off' on the SPAF. What would the likely consequences of his 'going on record' with that announcement have been?
As opposed to a quick walk down for a look-see, and no harm done if he closed it quickly...
... except that he ran out of CYA time just a bit early, away from a radio...
Creativity is lacking and badly needed. Just throwing up hands and saying nothing works because railroads are so unique is just an excuse to maintain the status quo.
To add to what Balt wrote, we must consider the tours of duty that railroader's work. A full workday can range from a few hours to every second of the 12 hours allowed.
I believe it's still the case that a certain distance (used to be around 100 miles) was considered to be a full day. And at one time, it was. Today, a crew on a through freight can travel that distance in a few hours and they're done for the day.
On the other hand, a crew can just barely make it out of the yard in that 12 hours sometimes.
Mechanical considerations notwithstanding, railroads would need to figure out how to put everyone on an eight-hour day, and that would require a major overhaul of the culture.
And this is where railroads are at a disadvantage with the trucking industry. A truck driver drives until he runs out of hours. A rail crew essentially runs until they run out of territory.
Electroliner 1935And another question, does any engineer or conductor see any way to change the current duty hours to reduce the wild uncertaincy of the times crews are called? One might think PSR would let them schedule crews to where fatigue would not be a problem (Stop laughing)
I worked multiple CSX Divisions which had as their base every fallen flag carrier the made up CSX. Among those fallen flag carriers and also among all the local Union contract addendums added to the National contract - virtually EVERY form of having crews report for duty in scheduled and unscheduled manners has been tried. From my observation, all have been found wanting, over time. Any operation that operates around the clock with mechanical things that are subject to 'breakage' that can and do affect the operation and throw the best laid plans into the scrap heap on a seconds notice.
There is no perfect crewing pattern for 24 hour operations.
jeffhergert There was a Form B bulletin in effect that covered where the switch (CTC control point) from the yard to the main track was. Being inside the Form B, there was no red board located at the main track switch. Jeff
There was a Form B bulletin in effect that covered where the switch (CTC control point) from the yard to the main track was. Being inside the Form B, there was no red board located at the main track switch.
Before I retired CSX was using red boards at any switch entering a section of track that required permission of a maintenance foreman to enter.
If the CSX engineer had doubts about the switch position he could probably have called the Amtrak train directly on the radio.
This is a question for those currently operating trains. How much supervision support do you get these days? Do you get ride alongs from Road Formen of Engines or Trainmasters or what ever the current titles are? Or have the railroads trimmed their ranks too where they don't have time to know you and how you are doing? Do they have any proficency support for you? Are there tools or classes for you to use to help keep you finding purpose in what you are doing.
And another question, does any engineer or conductor see any way to change the current duty hours to reduce the wild uncertaincy of the times crews are called? One might think PSR would let them schedule crews to where fatigue would not be a problem (Stop laughing)
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