zugmann BaltACD The modification that was made to the HOS laws in 2015 or thereabouts with the changed rest requirements of the 10 hours undisturbed rest and some other limitations on maximum hours in a 7 day period and so called limbo time had the effect of decreasing the earning POTENTIAL by about 27% from the way things were before the latest changes. Remember T&E employees work for money, not prestige. Prestige doen't pay the family bills. In fact, outside the Board Room, most all railroad employees, rank and file and Officials, work for money not prestige. I've worked with a lot of people in a couple of terminals, and I can count with the fingers of one hand, how many people preffered the old way. Most of them are people up to their eyeballs in debt. That 6 for 8 stuff was rough. Hardly anyone misses it (me included). Money can be nice, but a lot of people don't want to spend their entire lives out here, either.
BaltACD The modification that was made to the HOS laws in 2015 or thereabouts with the changed rest requirements of the 10 hours undisturbed rest and some other limitations on maximum hours in a 7 day period and so called limbo time had the effect of decreasing the earning POTENTIAL by about 27% from the way things were before the latest changes. Remember T&E employees work for money, not prestige. Prestige doen't pay the family bills. In fact, outside the Board Room, most all railroad employees, rank and file and Officials, work for money not prestige.
I've worked with a lot of people in a couple of terminals, and I can count with the fingers of one hand, how many people preffered the old way. Most of them are people up to their eyeballs in debt. That 6 for 8 stuff was rough. Hardly anyone misses it (me included).
Money can be nice, but a lot of people don't want to spend their entire lives out here, either.
A generational difference in values and lifestyles not limited to railroad employees, BTW.
BaltACDThe modification that was made to the HOS laws in 2015 or thereabouts with the changed rest requirements of the 10 hours undisturbed rest and some other limitations on maximum hours in a 7 day period and so called limbo time had the effect of decreasing the earning POTENTIAL by about 27% from the way things were before the latest changes. Remember T&E employees work for money, not prestige. Prestige doen't pay the family bills. In fact, outside the Board Room, most all railroad employees, rank and file and Officials, work for money not prestige.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
tree68 charlie hebdo Crews falling asleep and running into the rear of other trains is one fatal consequence. Fatigue has become a watchword in the world of HOS. But they still haven't figured out circadian rhythms... And that's been one of the major bugaboos - If you work an eight hour day, even ten hours of uninterrupted rest means you could be back on duty in, say, twelve hours, for a twenty hour turnaround. Several days of that turns your day upside down, and even the mandatory longer rest that will intervene isn't enough to allow for recovery before your start it again. There are numerous variables in the HOS rules - most of which do little to ensure truly well-rested crews.
charlie hebdo Crews falling asleep and running into the rear of other trains is one fatal consequence.
Fatigue has become a watchword in the world of HOS. But they still haven't figured out circadian rhythms...
And that's been one of the major bugaboos - If you work an eight hour day, even ten hours of uninterrupted rest means you could be back on duty in, say, twelve hours, for a twenty hour turnaround. Several days of that turns your day upside down, and even the mandatory longer rest that will intervene isn't enough to allow for recovery before your start it again.
There are numerous variables in the HOS rules - most of which do little to ensure truly well-rested crews.
When shippers regulate their shipping needs based on circadian rhythms, so will the railroads.
The 'other side' of the rest question that no one wants to talk about - how much less do employees earn because of the increased required rest. The modification that was made to the HOS laws in 2015 or thereabouts with the changed rest requirements of the 10 hours undisturbed rest and some other limitations on maximum hours in a 7 day period and so called limbo time had the effect of decreasing the earning POTENTIAL by about 27% from the way things were before the latest changes.
Remember T&E employees work for money, not prestige. Prestige doen't pay the family bills. In fact, outside the Board Room, most all railroad employees, rank and file and Officials, work for money not prestige.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tree68 charlie hebdo Crews falling asleep and running into the rear of other trains is one fatal consequence. Fatigue has become a watchword in the world of HOS. But they still haven't figured out circadian rhythms...
That is my understanding too. Twenty or thirty years ago, it was believed that the tiredness symptom from night work was simply due to not getting enough sleep during the day. It made sense because it is hard to sleep well when the rest of the world is up and doing things. And if you have errands to run, they have to be run in the day when stores are open.
But now they have found that the problem of tiredness comes from interrupting the circadian rhythm, and simply getting more sleep during the day won’t solve the problem. This is called Shift work sleep disorder (SWSD).
The only solution is to either be a person who naturally does not succumb to SWSD or to not work nights. This requires extensive testing to find the people who are susceptible to SWSD or not susceptible to it. And then those who are found susceptible are either successfully treated or taken out of any service deemed to be a danger if performed by those with SWSD.
Recently, widespread employee testing has been proposed as the starting point for solving the railroad fatigue problem. But this is highly contentious because it threatens employees with possible job loss. Testing for SWSD has been debated at a very high level, and so far, it has been rejected. But the problem as defined as being SWSD has the industry boxed in to the testing as being the essential remedy. If testing is rejected, how to you solve the problem?
One problem is the variability of the shifts. As was discussed previously, a day's work might be determined by either the clock, or by mileage. One day a person could work 12 hours due to traffic or other factors, and the next day just four or five because they caught a nice through freight with no mitigating issues.
Ideally, it would be a 9-5 world, but that just doesn't happen in railroading.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Maybe consider longer shifts with longer down time. For example, 10 hrs on X4 days/wk or even 13 X3?
charlie hebdoCrews falling asleep and running into the rear of other trains is one fatal consequence.
It's not just about the work conditions for crews, it is also about safety, which suffers. You may know all about dispatching but not about neuroscience. Crews falling asleep and running into the rear of other trains is one fatal consequence. Clearly the work conditions should be studied and people with the applicable knowledge and creativity can find a better system. It's not going to come from within an industry that has a "this is the way we have always done it" attitude as Oltmann calls it. He ought to know.
jeffhergert BaltACD Lithonia Operator Yes, both of those are bad policies. I agree wholeheartedly about the effectiveness of having people work on short rest. Hospitals do this with medical residents also. I'm sure we don't even want to know about a lot of things done by bleary-eyed/brained doctors. Humans need rest. Trainees are not being called on 'short rest'. HOS rest requirements apply to all employees in T&E service, those working and those training. Where a trainee would get separated from a trainer is where when the trainer marks off his position on the board is, say, 5 times out - ie. 4 other turns will be called before the trainer. If the trainee marks off and is head out, he will get called on the next available train after he has acrewed the required rest - that could be with his 'trainer' or any other one in the pool. Currently crews involved in freight T&E service are required to have 10 hours UNDISTRUBED rest. They cannot be called by the callers until 10 hours 1 minute from their last registered OFF time. That phone can be ringing at 10 hours exactly. For example, I tied up at 1600 hrs (4pm) this afternoon. At 0200 (2am) my phone can be ringing to be on duty at 0330 or 0400 depending if I'm at home or away from home. Sometimes it happens. sometimes it doesn't. More likely when away from home for me. Jeff
BaltACD Lithonia Operator Yes, both of those are bad policies. I agree wholeheartedly about the effectiveness of having people work on short rest. Hospitals do this with medical residents also. I'm sure we don't even want to know about a lot of things done by bleary-eyed/brained doctors. Humans need rest. Trainees are not being called on 'short rest'. HOS rest requirements apply to all employees in T&E service, those working and those training. Where a trainee would get separated from a trainer is where when the trainer marks off his position on the board is, say, 5 times out - ie. 4 other turns will be called before the trainer. If the trainee marks off and is head out, he will get called on the next available train after he has acrewed the required rest - that could be with his 'trainer' or any other one in the pool. Currently crews involved in freight T&E service are required to have 10 hours UNDISTRUBED rest. They cannot be called by the callers until 10 hours 1 minute from their last registered OFF time.
Lithonia Operator Yes, both of those are bad policies. I agree wholeheartedly about the effectiveness of having people work on short rest. Hospitals do this with medical residents also. I'm sure we don't even want to know about a lot of things done by bleary-eyed/brained doctors. Humans need rest.
I agree wholeheartedly about the effectiveness of having people work on short rest. Hospitals do this with medical residents also. I'm sure we don't even want to know about a lot of things done by bleary-eyed/brained doctors. Humans need rest.
Trainees are not being called on 'short rest'. HOS rest requirements apply to all employees in T&E service, those working and those training. Where a trainee would get separated from a trainer is where when the trainer marks off his position on the board is, say, 5 times out - ie. 4 other turns will be called before the trainer. If the trainee marks off and is head out, he will get called on the next available train after he has acrewed the required rest - that could be with his 'trainer' or any other one in the pool.
Currently crews involved in freight T&E service are required to have 10 hours UNDISTRUBED rest. They cannot be called by the callers until 10 hours 1 minute from their last registered OFF time.
That phone can be ringing at 10 hours exactly. For example, I tied up at 1600 hrs (4pm) this afternoon. At 0200 (2am) my phone can be ringing to be on duty at 0330 or 0400 depending if I'm at home or away from home. Sometimes it happens. sometimes it doesn't. More likely when away from home for me.
Jeff
With the automation that has been put in to crew calling function - the exact 10 hour call is more likely. When a caller actually had to dial the call, it generally took the extra minute.
charlie hebdo BaltACD charlie hebdo Either it is that way or not. Seems there are different opinions when it should be a fact. In any case, if guys are only getting six hours of sleep weeks at a time, itenot only a hard life, it's unsafe. Hence collisions such as discussed here with the crew asleep. What part of 10 hours UNDISTURBED rest before being available for the next call are you overlooking. What happens during those 10+ hours is in the hands of the employee. Back when Joe hired out, the HOS law was much different. Total legal time On Duty was 16 hours. The 8 hours between register off and mark up where the 8 hours of rest, despite having been called 6 hours after the register off. Outside of having T&E employees working 8 to 5 with a hour for lunch - there is no perfect way to protect the service requirements of the transportation public. Instead of getting snippy, try reading Joe's post about hours as a younger worker. I think the T&E folks know more about their work conditions than you.
BaltACD charlie hebdo Either it is that way or not. Seems there are different opinions when it should be a fact. In any case, if guys are only getting six hours of sleep weeks at a time, itenot only a hard life, it's unsafe. Hence collisions such as discussed here with the crew asleep. What part of 10 hours UNDISTURBED rest before being available for the next call are you overlooking. What happens during those 10+ hours is in the hands of the employee. Back when Joe hired out, the HOS law was much different. Total legal time On Duty was 16 hours. The 8 hours between register off and mark up where the 8 hours of rest, despite having been called 6 hours after the register off. Outside of having T&E employees working 8 to 5 with a hour for lunch - there is no perfect way to protect the service requirements of the transportation public.
charlie hebdo Either it is that way or not. Seems there are different opinions when it should be a fact. In any case, if guys are only getting six hours of sleep weeks at a time, itenot only a hard life, it's unsafe. Hence collisions such as discussed here with the crew asleep.
What part of 10 hours UNDISTURBED rest before being available for the next call are you overlooking. What happens during those 10+ hours is in the hands of the employee.
Back when Joe hired out, the HOS law was much different. Total legal time On Duty was 16 hours. The 8 hours between register off and mark up where the 8 hours of rest, despite having been called 6 hours after the register off.
Outside of having T&E employees working 8 to 5 with a hour for lunch - there is no perfect way to protect the service requirements of the transportation public.
Instead of getting snippy, try reading Joe's post about hours as a younger worker. I think the T&E folks know more about their work conditions than you.
Snipper. You forget - I dictated when crews got called. I have heard every excuse real and imagined for the last 26 years I worked, T&E service is not a easy life for anyone involved in it, the employee or their family. There is no way just telling someone what 'the life is' can adequately describe it - you tell people what the life is and they think, "I got it". Until they experience it, first hand and in real time they don't have a clue; once they get that clue, many leave for other forms of employment and more power to them - they know what they are made of and it is not of railroad mettle. Railroading is not a easy life.
DeggestyBack when some T&E employees in passenger service had regular runs (such as the IC passenger T&E employees on the Louisiana Division had regular runs and trainmen would be away from home for 24 hours, running a little over 400 miles altogether in 3 stretches--100 miles, 200 miles, and 100 miles--and be home for 24 hours before going out again), troubles en route could extend the time on the road.
Passenger operations have always been a minor adendum to overall T&E employment which deals with freight. Men needed 'good' seniority to be able to hold any passenger runs or to work the passenger extra board. Passenger jobs have always been the next best thing to having a job with predictable assigned working hours in the railroad industry.
Back when some T&E employees in passenger service had regular runs (such as the IC passenger T&E employees on the Louisiana Division had regular runs and trainmen would be away from home for 24 hours, running a little over 400 miles altogether in 3 stretches--100 miles, 200 miles, and 100 miles--and be home for 24 hours before going out again), troubles en route could extend the time on the road.
Johnny
charlie hebdoEither it is that way or not. Seems there are different opinions when it should be a fact. In any case, if guys are only getting six hours of sleep weeks at a time, itenot only a hard life, it's unsafe. Hence collisions such as discussed here with the crew asleep.
Either it is that way or not. Seems there are different opinions when it should be a fact. In any case, if guys are only getting six hours of sleep weeks at a time, itenot only a hard life, it's unsafe. Hence collisions such as discussed here with the crew asleep.
Murph and Joe: you've got me there.
I guess it really does train for the reality of the job. I was a clerk/operator for only two years, and half of that time I had a regular (non extra board) job with exactly 8 hours of work each day, on a fixed schedule five days a week. So I was spoiled.
But yeah, I guess for T&E employees it will rarely be that regular, except maybe on a yard switching job.
I'm a person who requires good rest, always have been. Even if I could shave off fifty years, I would not be a good conductor candidate.
Murphy SidingIsn't that just OJT for how the real job will be?
Yes it is. I spent 26 of my years on the extra board before cell phones waiting for a call giving me two hours notice to report for an assignment in any class of service at any time of the day or night. Your life revolves around your job and you must govern yourself accordingly i.e. availability, proper rest etc.
Lithonia Operator Thanks, Balt. Well, that's not as bad as I thought. However, weeks of nothing but sleep and work takes a toll. Most non-railroad people have 12-16 hours off. And in reality the railroader trainee is being forced to use time supposedly allotted for sleeping to run errands, do family duties, pay bills, fix the leaky faucet, etc., etc. I doubt most people on such a schedule get more than six hours actual sleep, on average. Do that for a month, and most people would be exhausted much of the time, and not too sharp.
Thanks, Balt.
Well, that's not as bad as I thought. However, weeks of nothing but sleep and work takes a toll. Most non-railroad people have 12-16 hours off.
And in reality the railroader trainee is being forced to use time supposedly allotted for sleeping to run errands, do family duties, pay bills, fix the leaky faucet, etc., etc. I doubt most people on such a schedule get more than six hours actual sleep, on average. Do that for a month, and most people would be exhausted much of the time, and not too sharp.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Lithonia OperatorYes, both of those are bad policies. I agree wholeheartedly about the effectiveness of having people work on short rest. Hospitals do this with medical residents also. I'm sure we don't even want to know about a lot of things done by bleary-eyed/brained doctors. Humans need rest.
So, when conductors are forced to become engineers, are they subject to being called for either a conductor or engineer job? Is that the point: to give the company more staffing flexibility?
Yes, both of those are bad policies.
Lithonia Operator Mark, was that change made simply to get the trainee thru the program as quickly as possible? Seems like a really bad change.
Mark, was that change made simply to get the trainee thru the program as quickly as possible?
Seems like a really bad change.
Another change of questionable wisdom was requiring all T&E employees to become qualified engineers. I have seen perfectly competent conductors become incompetent engineers either because they had no interest or no aptitude for the work, but were forced into it to keep their job.
Mark Vinski
Psychot charlie hebdo Being good at one's job doesn't necessarily mean you would be good at teaching others, even if you want to. Exactly... and those who are willing AND able to teach should be rewarded for it. After all, it's people like that who ensure the future of the enterprise. That's a much bigger contribution than "just doing your job." I should add that in my experience, lack of willingness to mentor is much more common than lack of ability. Most people just don't want to put forth the effort.
charlie hebdo Being good at one's job doesn't necessarily mean you would be good at teaching others, even if you want to.
Being good at one's job doesn't necessarily mean you would be good at teaching others, even if you want to.
Exactly... and those who are willing AND able to teach should be rewarded for it. After all, it's people like that who ensure the future of the enterprise. That's a much bigger contribution than "just doing your job."
I should add that in my experience, lack of willingness to mentor is much more common than lack of ability. Most people just don't want to put forth the effort.
Very true. If the incentives were greater? Money, release time?
243129In railroad operations, if someone is good at their job I would think they would set an example by their performance, not their teaching skills. When I was a fireman I worked with many different engineers with many different, not necessarily 'good', styles. By the results of these observations, I was able to determine who was 'good' and who was not and strove to adopt the 'good' style.
When I was a student engineer I had an "old head" engineer as my instructor one day - knew the territory like the back of his hand. He gave me information on the profile that no one else has, and which I still use to this day. Most other instructors coached as they saw the need. Some hardly at all, unless it was absolutely necessary.
We don't have the luxury of a potential (or actual) student engineer in the cab much of the time. The conductor is back on the train (a la Amtrak). If we're running long-hood-forward, we'll usually have a student conductor who is familiar with the territory as the second set of eyes.
And, no two trips are the same. Even if the other person in the cab is keenly aware of the engineers's actions, they may not handle the train exactly the same way tomorrow.
Balt:
Very true.
charlie hebdo Joe, the key word was 'necessarily'to which I would add that it is very much an individual matter. For example, some excellent therapists are also good teachers and supervisors, but some are most definitely not. Ditto in sports.
Joe, the key word was 'necessarily'to which I would add that it is very much an individual matter. For example, some excellent therapists are also good teachers and supervisors, but some are most definitely not. Ditto in sports.
In railroad operations, if someone is good at their job I would think they would set an example by their performance, not their teaching skills. When I was a fireman I worked with many different engineers with many different, not necessarily 'good', styles. By the results of these observations, I was able to determine who was 'good' and who was not and strove to adopt the 'good' style.
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