SD70Dude Lithonia Operator I was struck by the eighth post in this thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43827&sid=951ce2562662542d7133640d1985ea86 and who it is by. You get some really interesting commentary by some really (surprisingly) famous names over on RYPN. His comment speaks volumes, especially considering that Mr. Rowland is notorious on that forum for being a grouch who does not hold back his low opinions of other people or groups, including municipal goverments (some here will recall the 503 saga).
Lithonia Operator I was struck by the eighth post in this thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43827&sid=951ce2562662542d7133640d1985ea86 and who it is by.
I was struck by the eighth post in this thread:
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43827&sid=951ce2562662542d7133640d1985ea86
and who it is by.
You get some really interesting commentary by some really (surprisingly) famous names over on RYPN.
His comment speaks volumes, especially considering that Mr. Rowland is notorious on that forum for being a grouch who does not hold back his low opinions of other people or groups, including municipal goverments (some here will recall the 503 saga).
Interesting stuff on that RYPN Forum, but I have to correct Mr. Chuck Richard's post.
The American Revolution wasn't about taxation, it was about self-government. Taxation was the symptom, not the disease.
Very briefly, the British North American colonies were essentially self-governing from the outset and had very little interference from the Mother Country. After the French and Indian War that changed, and Parliament began exerting more and more control over the colonies. Well, after 150 years of colonial self-government it was too late, it just wasn't going to work, either over taxation or anything else.
Off-topic I know, but the Revolution is a favorite study of mine and I just couldn't let it go.
daveklepper And don't the passengers on the other trains require the same services from the Town?
I suspect that it comes down to where the ticket is sold.
A train originating outside of Jim Thorpe borough may not be subject to the tax, even if the train travels to Jim Thorpe, the passengers disembark and shop/eat/whatever in Jim Thorpe. Those same passengers, having already paid for their passage at a point outside of the borough, then reboard the train and ride back to the point of origin.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Calling it an "Amusement Tax" is the trivialization. And don't the passengers on the other trains require the same services from the Town? And don't some of the freight shippers and receivers?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
[quote user="MidlandMike"]
daveklepper Yes. Amusement includes enjoyment. But enjoyment definitely does not necessarily include amusement. Regarding the Property Tax. The tax on emply undeveloped property is usually a lot lower than property that has been developed. The property taxes the railroad pays reflect that they are used for a profitable freight business and reflect the state of development. The railroad was and continues paying its fair share of the burdens of the community before this addiitonal tax was levied on it. There are probably other taxes involved, also. Equating a grand work of nature with an amusement park or a theater is to trivialize it. I would add a religious dimension to this discussion if the rules permitted, but instead: Is it possible that this is the same kind of trivialization that the Colorado Highway Department implemented?
Yes. Amusement includes enjoyment. But enjoyment definitely does not necessarily include amusement.
Regarding the Property Tax. The tax on emply undeveloped property is usually a lot lower than property that has been developed. The property taxes the railroad pays reflect that they are used for a profitable freight business and reflect the state of development. The railroad was and continues paying its fair share of the burdens of the community before this addiitonal tax was levied on it. There are probably other taxes involved, also.
Equating a grand work of nature with an amusement park or a theater is to trivialize it. I would add a religious dimension to this discussion if the rules permitted, but instead:
Is it possible that this is the same kind of trivialization that the Colorado Highway Department implemented?
The property tax the railroad, or anyone else, pays on its facility is based on its value, not on any measure of what amount of services they use. Property taxes are not designed on supporting the services used by hundreds of tourist decending on the town and using those services. That is what airport fees, hotel taxes, and amusement taxes are for. Value added taxes would also capture some tourist dollars, but would be much more of a burden on the locals, who are also paying property taxes.
I never equated nature with an amusement park. Some people riding the scenic train may do that, but that is their choice.
[/quote above]
But calling it an Amusement Tax is exactly such a trivialization. And the services people riding the train to and from Lehigh Gorge are no different than those riding the train elsewhere.
Lehigh Gorge is within Lehigh Gorge State Park, which is owned and maintained by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania's Department of Conservation and Natural Resources (DCNR). It basically consists of 4 things: the Lehigh River; the mountains on each side of the River; the former roadbed of mostly the Central RR of New Jersey, which is now a wide (ex-double track) rail-trail; and the active rail lines of NS and RBM&N.
- PDN.
daveklepperThere are many great works of nature that don't demand an entrance fee. One can fly over those where one is charged with a light plane and not pay sn entrance fee.
Actually some parks (eg. Grand Canyon NP) have needed to restrict flights over the park because they were getting to be a problem.
daveklepperI think if you were to ask a USA Rqnger the quesition: Is the entrance fee charged a fee to see Nature's wonders or is it a fee for upkeep, for facilities, and people that facilitate the visits, he or she would answer the secod, of course.
Bingo!
daveklepperWho is reponsible for the existance of Lehigh Gorge? Does the town do anything to maintain it?
No, Jim Thorpe maintains the town services the tourist use at the boarding point.
daveklepperIm a sense, fo rme, personally, the Town's levi on this partifular item seems a small theft.
The town's duly elected officials decided that the railroad needs to support the services they provide to the passengers who are drawn to the rail's scenic train.
I am confused about RBMN's route map. I thought they did not go to Scranton, that Delaware Lackwanna was the only RR in town.
And if the do go to Scanton, why is no connection with DL shown? (They do show a connection to NS at Taylor Yard.)
Overmod I think I spoke a bit too soon about the greater implications of this situation. Here is the original letter describing the RBMN cessation of operations in Jim Thorpe. But two days later, on the 18th,came this notice about revised Santa trains which clearly indicates they are "terminating their relationship with the Borough of Jim Thorpe" and notes "Although many communities asked us to consider running trains from their towns, we decided to focus our 2019 Christmas trains on those communities that had existing facilities. As we move forward with our 2020 plans we will be reaching out to many communities to see how we can bring the joy of railroading to as many people as possible." I had thought the only thing that was ceasing was the LGSRy presence in Jim Thorpe (at the end of the notice on the 16th it said "Closure of LGSR does not affect RBMN passenger operations from other locations to Jim Thorpe."), but the subsequent notice seems to indicate that the other trains that run from Pottsville or Reading Outer Station via Port Clinton, and any trains that RMBN might choose to run through the gorge to Old Penn Haven (including a new version of the bike trains), may be rerouted or not stop at Jim Thorpe at all if they pass it. It doesn't appear (as of today, the 24th) that the issue is open to any discussion (at least at present).
I think I spoke a bit too soon about the greater implications of this situation.
Here is the original letter describing the RBMN cessation of operations in Jim Thorpe.
But two days later, on the 18th,came this notice about revised Santa trains which clearly indicates they are "terminating their relationship with the Borough of Jim Thorpe" and notes "Although many communities asked us to consider running trains from their towns, we decided to focus our 2019 Christmas trains on those communities that had existing facilities. As we move forward with our 2020 plans we will be reaching out to many communities to see how we can bring the joy of railroading to as many people as possible."
I had thought the only thing that was ceasing was the LGSRy presence in Jim Thorpe (at the end of the notice on the 16th it said "Closure of LGSR does not affect RBMN passenger operations from other locations to Jim Thorpe."), but the subsequent notice seems to indicate that the other trains that run from Pottsville or Reading Outer Station via Port Clinton, and any trains that RMBN might choose to run through the gorge to Old Penn Haven (including a new version of the bike trains), may be rerouted or not stop at Jim Thorpe at all if they pass it. It doesn't appear (as of today, the 24th) that the issue is open to any discussion (at least at present).
Both links brought me to the same letter, which I believe may be the first one you referenced.
Flintlock76I think the running of the "Pumpkin Train" may be more the doing of these folks... www.prrh.org That's the Phillipsburg Rail Road Historians.
The only "Pumpkin Train" out of Phillipsburg that I know is this one:
https://877trainride.com/pumpkintrain.htm
and that's the one that's a 'joint effort' between the NYS&W T&HS and the "Black River System".
PRRH has some model train excursion action, and some Santa trains lined up, but I don't see anything else for them this year.
Overmod, as I understand it the NYS&W Technical and Historical Society is kind of a loose organization, for lack of a better term. I just checked their website and it looks like it hasn't been updated in quite a while. Maybe they don't know any computer savvy teenagers?
I think the running of the "Pumpkin Train" may be more the doing of these folks...
www.prrh.org That's the Phillipsburg Rail Road Historians.
And on that "Toys For Tots" train torpedoed by Amtrak last year? As I remember the Norfolk-Southern and some New York regional shortlines stepped up to the plate and ran it, leaving Amtrak with considerable egg on its face.
Here's a video you and others might enjoy, it's a Susquehanna sponsored "Toys For Tots" train from several years ago. It runs from Ridgefield Park through the "wilds" of North Jersey. I don't mind the background music but some find it annoying, so be forewarned. Great video, though!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHIJBAP9l_I
Flintlock76 BaltACD Tax the rain! Don't laugh, New Jersey's proposed just that! Has something to do with driveways and parking lots adding to the run-off in streams and rivers. Or something. Anyway, I wonder if there's an "amusement tax" on this? Wouldn't surprise me, NJ taxes just about everything else. Looks like a nice ride! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKnLRH1RuYY
BaltACD Tax the rain!
Tax the rain!
Don't laugh, New Jersey's proposed just that! Has something to do with driveways and parking lots adding to the run-off in streams and rivers. Or something.
Anyway, I wonder if there's an "amusement tax" on this? Wouldn't surprise me, NJ taxes just about everything else.
Looks like a nice ride!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKnLRH1RuYY
Maryland with O'Malley did it, when Hogan became Govenor it was repealed.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Flintlock76Anyway, I wonder if there's an "amusement tax" on this? Wouldn't surprise me ...
Getting an answer to this turns out to be remarkably involved! The only way to contact the operation directly appears to be by telephone, at strictly limited hours (877-872-4674, M-F noon to 5 Eastern; Sat/Sun 11 to 3) and not only isn't there any e-mail address given, the parent organization (the NYS&W Technical & Historical Society) doesn't provide one either! (They do provide 'forums' but very few people seem to have bothered with them)
So your likeliest way to get an answer to Phillipsburg 'amusement tax' or other community organizing matters is probably the Society's Facebook Group page:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/98707546433/
Incidentally, I see to my relief that 'privateers' have stepped in to provide the New York 'Toys for Tots' train this year, after Amtrak made its policy changes in August 2018.
https://www.operationtoytrain.org/sponsors
click on "Train Schedule" and it will download as a PDF, showing the railroads that stepped in.
Their "Santa Train" is another casualty. It will run, but not in Jim Thorpe:
https://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-nws-santa-train-new-schedule-20191018-puraztjvybf4dkml7t7qzzhns4-story.html
Here is the law's definition of "Amusement," cut and pasted from the local law:
All manner and form of entertainment within the Borough of Jim Thorpe, including, among others, theatrical or musical performances, concerts, lectures, vaudeville, circus, carnival and sideshows, all forms of entertainment at fair grounds and amusement parks, athletic contests, including wrestling matches, boxing and sparring exhibitions, football, basketball and baseball games, skating, ski lifting, golfing, including golf cart rental fees, tennis, hockey, bathing, swimming, boating, water skiing, shooting, trap and skeet shooting, riding, dancing, golf driving ranges, miniature golf courses, bowling alleys, pool and billiard parlors, racing, and all other forms of diversions, sport, winter or summer recreation or pastime, shows, exhibitions, contests, displays and games, and all other methods of obtaining admission charges, donations, contributions or monetary charges of any character, from the general public or a limited or selected number thereof, directly or indirectly, in return for other tangible property, or specific personal or professional service.
Flintlock76So, is this proposed imposition of a tax on the Lehigh Gorge RR legitimate, or an overreach on the town's part? Or would that have to be decided in court?
The short answer is that of course it will have to be decided in court. Unless the town just acquiesces in RBMN's choice to stop the Lehigh Gorge and Northern trains, pardon the pun, in their tracks. And doesn't plan to collect those years "in arrears" according to them.
Personally, I don't see any reason the municipality couldn't impose an amusement tax, or that there's some overarching Federal-general-system-of-transportation rule applying to out-and-back scenic excursions that trumps the applicability of such a tax. That's for the better lawyer to prevail upon, and I'm sure it will be fascinatingly hashed out in detail, with the tourist-railroad industry very carefully watching.
At the risk of sounding ignorant here (what the hell, no guts, no glory) does the municipality of Jim Thorpe even have the authority to impose a tax on the railroad?
It's my understanding taxes on railroads are applied on the Federal and state level, not the county and/or town level.
So, is this proposed imposition of a tax on the Lehigh Gorge RR legitimate, or an overreach on the town's part? Or would that have to be decided in court?
daveklepperIf the train is discontinued, can the Town's municipal buses provide a substitute service?
Municipal bus service in Jim Thorpe? Have you looked at a map of that town?
Here's the long version of the services provided. You can judge which, if any, of them would "stand in" for the scenic train.
http://www.carboncounty.com/index.php/2-uncategorised/131-public-transportation
There is also long-distance bus service, but I doubt the coach company provides any more scenic tour than the road itself does. It's of course possible that a chartered arrangement could be made, but it wouldn't be the same without openable windows... or the views from close to river level.
And if for some reason Andy Muller should decide to pay in full and continue the Lehigh Gorge Train, I would not change my analysis, but would be happy with a peaceful resolution of the quarrel.
If the train is discontinued, can the Town's municipal buses provide a substitute service?
If Jim Thorp needs additional revenue, then an "Added Value" tax on all purchases woiuld be much fairer. This woud include all transportation, including taxi fares, restaurant meals, etc., except where and if thrre are specific taxes, like hotel taxes. And exceptions would specifically be made for hospitals, houses of worship, schools, etc.
Does the town of Jim Thorp have a (probably subsidized) municipal bus system?
Fake horror is not the same as real horror. Fake horror is definitely within amusement. The kind of horror I am referring unfortunately still exists today and is supported by certain specific governments (with additional funds made available, unwittingly, for that horror by a former USA President), even excused or praised by a very few members of the USA Congress, and also brought on, unwittingly, by a sudden decision by the current President which he now seems to be doing his best to reverse.
There are several items of history that always will be part of my memory and part of my daily experience. Some are very positive and some very much the opposite.
daveklepperI believe once the new bridge is open, the mine runs, the coal trains, will no longer run via Jim Thorpe, close-by, but not in the town itself.
To my knowledge the freight service is not an issue here. The town is not proposing a tax on the railroad itself; in fact, the spending of the $600,000 on flagging to rebuild crossings indicates that the town does not object to its presence.
Neither is the railroad ceasing its not-inconsiderable traffic specifically to Jim Thorpe as a destination. That is, unless their Web presence is completely obsolete, and their only destinations are the 'Santa trains' and Pottstown... which I think is unlikely. They continue to advertise that people can save the 'parking fees' and the potentially-terrifying drive to the town by riding their longer service. So this isn't about anything but the scenic runs with the old Reading coaches.
(Where is the place in that Venn diagram for amusement that involves horror -- something ramping up in these weeks before Halloween?)
There are many great works of nature that don't demand an entrance fee. One can fly over those where one is charged with a light plane and not pay sn entrance fee. I think if you were to ask a USA Rqnger the quesition: Is the entrance fee charged a fee to see Nature's wonders or is it a fee for upkeep, for facilities, and people that facilitate the visits, he or she would answer the secod, of course.
Who is reponsible for the existance of Lehigh Gorge? Does the town do anything to maintain it? As a responsible and religious person, I believe I do my best to pay for the marvels I have see, and indeed, for me at least, writing on this topic on this thread is one form of payment.
Im a sense, fo rme, personally, the Town's levi on this partifular item seems a small theft. Not the huge crime that the Colorado Highesy Department perpetrated, but a small one based on the same misunderstanding.
Careful use of words seems appropriate on this Forum. One gets enjoyment from a delicious carefully-prepared meal, but one hardly gets amusement unless conversation provides such.
After much deliberation, I think a semantic chart for this issue might be appropriate, and here is the one I prepared, based only on my 87-years' life experience:
I believe once the new bridge is open, the mine runs, the coal trains, will no longer run via Jim Thorp, close-by, but not in the town itself. Is the wine merchant in the town?
I
Spirited, lively discussion here folks, my compliments to you all! A lot of serious thinking going on here.
By the way, I just love the name "Reading Outer Station." Kind of implies there's something mysterious and exotic going on there, a call to adventure!
Kind of like "The Last Outpost..."
I haven't seen whether the 'amusement tax' is supposed to be applied to the other RBMN trips to Jim Thorpe, particularly the ten 'observation car' trains there (six diesel and four steam, this year) that are billed as 'excursions' rather than transportation to Jim Thorpe or for the city's residents to travel to Reading Outer Station or Port Clinton.
I'd think the tax would only apply to round trips, with no formal 'stop' at their outer ending point, that begin and end in Jim Thorpe. To my knowledge that describes what the "Lehigh Gorge and Northern" service does. This is of course a matter of concern to many 'tourist-railroad' types of operation, particularly those that are on a relative shoestring budget in the first place, and I'm interested in seeing what the ARM/TRAIN perspective on this issue, or amicus-curiae-type opinions on this issue, will be.
What I find surprising, as an outsider to the issue, is that it hasn't followed what I'd expect the logical course to be:
Jim Thorpe imposes their 'amusement tax'; Andy files a motion to contest it, and asks for a stay of implementation; the matter is heard in a proper court and (hopefully!) the result is then applicable as precedent for, or against, amusement tax on other comparable tourist railroad operations.
Instead, the prompt response is to cut the gorge excursions -- without, so far as I can see, any mention of cutting back the other excursions RBMN runs to Jim Thorpe. In my opinion that bolsters the speculation that 'personalities are involved here' somehow.
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