Thanks for the congratulations, but:
The text of the letter was basically Euclid's and Overmod helped with an important correction.
We really don't know the effect of the letter and may never know. It may have been completely the result of pressure by townspeople and their wish to preserve a source of income.
In addition, considering who created the awesome "attraction," just possibly one or more of the town's clergy may have been involved.
Dave, maybe the power of the pen works. Congratulatons. Hopefully, the results will be good for all.
Just saw it in "Trains News" myself. I wouldn't say it "over-over," but it's a start.
The lawsuit has been dropped. Let's hope that the two parties can arrive at an acceptable solution.
daveklepper Overmod suggested I leave matters rest until the court decisions come through. Should I resend the letter to the Lehighton or Wilkes-Barre papers? Advise requested.
Overmod suggested I leave matters rest until the court decisions come through. Should I resend the letter to the Lehighton or Wilkes-Barre papers? Advise requested.
Dave,
I don't understand your point. Was your letter published or not? Or was it published in one paper, and you are considering publishing it in others?
What would be the point of leaving matters to rest until after the court decision? I thought the whole point of the letter was to influence the decision.
It appears that no additional letters will Not be necessary accoding to the News.
I visited Wilkes-Barre in the winter of 1949-1950 and several times in the summer of 1950, riding the Laural Line to and from Scranton. once also the D&H Scranton - Carbondale, and also several times Wilkes-Barre - Nanicoke and to and from Hanover. Laural Line, interurban equipment, third rail except trolley wire in Wilkes-Barre. D&H 2-8-0 and steel open-platform roller-bearing coaches. Nanicoke and Hanover, arch-roof medium-weight one-man streetcars, but street trackage only in Wilkes-Barre itself, otherwise single-track with signals, except Hanover a one-car branch shuttle. Rest of Wilkes-Barre system trolleybus, rode to and from carhouse in one. Carhouse buses, trolleybuses, and a few streetcars.
May find the photos some day!
Just checked in on this thread. The Reading Eagle is not widely circulated in Jim Thorpe, I believe. More likely is the Times News out of Lehighton, or perhaps the Times Leader out of Wilkes-Barre.
- PDN.
Regards - Steve
I don't have an answer, since I did not read every issue of the Reading paper every issue, every day following my transmittal.
One can assume it was brought to the Mayor's attention.
daveklepper The letter was emailed late yesterday. I am sure the mayor heard from shopkeepers on the matter you raised, and the shorer the letter, the better chance of its being printed. But thanks for the suggestion, which I will use if further correspondence develops.
The letter was emailed late yesterday. I am sure the mayor heard from shopkeepers on the matter you raised, and the shorer the letter, the better chance of its being printed. But thanks for the suggestion, which I will use if further correspondence develops.
Did your letter get printed? If so, I missed it.
Dave, You might want to add a paragraph about the loss of revenue to the towns merchants by the loss of the train due to the tax. I'm not a wordsmithso I leave the wording to others
I'll take the advice of both of you. Thanks for commenting constructively, and the email will be sent.
Former President, New York City Electric Railroaders' Association, USA Army Veteran, Life member, American Legion.
Might want to spell Jim Thorpe correctly.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
proposed letter to Reading Eagle:
Dear Editor:
The Gorge is freely accessible to everyone. The railroad provides transportation which amounts to one access option to reach the Gorge. The Gorge alone is the source of the amusement, enjoyment, recreation, awe, or whatever you want to call the subject of the tax. The railroad is simply practical transportation to the Gorge, and not an activity that justifies an amusement tax.
Very best wishes for all the people in Jim Thorpe and the surrounding area,
Dave Klepper
Former President, NYCity-based Electric Railroaders' Association, former member Executive Board, NY Chapter, American Guild of Organists, USA Army Veteran, co-author. Worship Space Acoustics (jrosspub.com), student, Yeshivat Beit Orot, Jerusalem, Israel
Should I add that I am a lifetime member of the American Legion?
EuclidA letter to the paper will not overrule the courts or prevent the them from making their decision. The letter will be read by lots of people in the area.
Or you know, today is election day for PA municipalities. I haven't searched for a sample Jim Thorpe ballot - but if the residents care - then today is their day.
Euclid: That is exactly the letter I am proposing to write.
I'll wait for a few more comments, and meanwhile google the newspaper to get the appropriate email address, and possibly snail-mail as well.
Of course I will copy the railroad if my decision is yes, but not expect a reply. And Midelman, of course I respect your opinion also, which is indicated by my asking for advice.
zugmann daveklepper Or should a Pennsylvanian resident who agrees with this formulation write the letter. Any volunteers? Nope. Let the courts decide this. Besides, who reads papers anymore? It does seem another main target of the amusement taxes up there are ATV/off-road parks. Are they transportation, too?
daveklepper Or should a Pennsylvanian resident who agrees with this formulation write the letter. Any volunteers?
Nope. Let the courts decide this. Besides, who reads papers anymore?
It does seem another main target of the amusement taxes up there are ATV/off-road parks. Are they transportation, too?
A letter to the paper will not overrule the courts or prevent the them from making their decision. The letter will be read by lots of people in the area.
I would just make the case that the railroad is selling transportation and let it go at that. It gets right to the heart of the dispute and does sound fairly convincing. Sure people will split hairs, but one of these ways of looking at it will prevail.
Do we know that this is going to court? Another possible form of resolution is for public opinion to change the mind of the City.
In the letter, I would stick to the idea that the railroad is only transportation; and also, I would not include anything about the agument that the Gorge is some form of enterainment that is not amusement. I think that is a dead end argument that will be regarded as only a semantic difference that has no bearing on the tax.
No. It will only get their back up and backfire resulting in the all too fashionable these days 'double down'.
daveklepperOr should a Pennsylvanian resident who agrees with this formulation write the letter. Any volunteers?
daveklepper I think the railroad will win its case in court. I am asking for advice. I should not ask the Andy or the railroad, because they cannot answer without disturbing their case preparation. The comment I would receive is "We cannot answer because the case in under litigation" or something similar. So I ask the readers who agree: Should I write the local paper stating in a few words my opinion? The idea is that the mayor may just realize that he does not have a case. That the railroad provides transportation and Gorge, accessable freely by those arriving other than by railroad, provides what he defines as amusement and I define as awe and enjoyment. The Gorge, not the railroad. Or should a Pennsylvanian resident who agrees with this formulation write the letter. Any volunteers?
I think the railroad will win its case in court.
I am asking for advice. I should not ask the Andy or the railroad, because they cannot answer without disturbing their case preparation. The comment I would receive is "We cannot answer because the case in under litigation" or something similar.
So I ask the readers who agree: Should I write the local paper stating in a few words my opinion? The idea is that the mayor may just realize that he does not have a case. That the railroad provides transportation and Gorge, accessable freely by those arriving other than by railroad, provides what he defines as amusement and I define as awe and enjoyment. The Gorge, not the railroad.
Or should a Pennsylvanian resident who agrees with this formulation write the letter. Any volunteers?
I think you should write it if you think it would help. Why not? Just make the letter as clear as a bell. You can also write letters to Andy, and maybe several other parties as well.
I have been reading this thread, and am not quite sure of exactly what course your letter will take. I think I understand whay you are saying in the part of your quote that I highlighted in blue above. But the way that is written is quite confusing to me. So I suggest that if that is to be part of your letter, rewrite it so flows without any confusion.
I would say something like this:
The Gorge is freely accessible to everyone. The railroad provides transportation which amounts to one access option to reach the Gorge. The Gorge alone is the source of the amusement, enjoyment, recreation, or whatever you want to call the subject of the tax. The railroad is simply practical transportation to the Gorge, and not an activity that justifies an amusement tax.
daveklepperShould I write the local paper stating in a few words my opinion?
My opinion is 'no'. (Explained further via PM, as appropriate)
Overmod zugmann Looks like Penn Forest Twp. (to the north of Jim Thorpe) and on the eastern side of the gorge has a 2.1% amusement tax as of 2018. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=2ahUKEwj_7eCMltDlAhWIZd8KHT52B5UQFjACegQIAxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpennforesttownship.org%2Fsupervisorminutes%2FBOS-2018-01-02-REORGANIZATION.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2ON8PoTSyykeZUIqB85VU Link worked well enough for me. Thus you see the wages of arrogance. Seeing this, I then explicitly checked to see if Kidder Township (which I believe is the corresponding entity for the west side of the gorge) has something... and, embarrassingly enough, they appear to: https://ecode360.com/6466194 I was proceeding on the assumption that the ecode360 'directory' provided all the references to township code in Pennsylvania. Again we see demonstrated what happens when someone 'ASSume's. I could salvage a very small bit from this by noting that the indicated 2.1% is much lower than Jim Thorpe's tax, but there's nothing preventing Penn Forest, or any other township north along the route (or in Luzerne County to the north) from implementing or increasing their tax if they sense an opportunity. In fact, Kidder (through which the LV ran; there was a famous wreck there in 1888) has this note, rendered in red in the ecode360 listing): “This section of Ordinance No. 20-A shall and may be amended from time to time by the Board of Supervisors of the Township of Kidder by Resolution changing the rate of tax. The rate of tax may also be amended by Resolution of the Board of Supervisors of the Township of Kidder from time to time reflecting any amendments or changes made by statute of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.” I'm beginning to wonder whether Andy's terminating the LG&N operation entirely might reflect a realization that the taxes could be made to apply to it, as presently constituted, if the various ordinances were recast to contain the language about railroads that is in Albany Township's ordinance. An immediate piece of research might be to check with the Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern (PO box 24, Kempton PA 19529; 610-756-6469) to see what their experience has been. (Notably they run on an 'isolated section' of ex-Reading line, and are probably not regulated by the PUC as a common carrier; the LG&N ran over track connected to the 'general system of transportation' and, of course, the RDC service from the south, as far as I know, will remain common-carrier point-to-point transportation without a putative 'entertainment' percentage analogous to a cover charge).
zugmann Looks like Penn Forest Twp. (to the north of Jim Thorpe) and on the eastern side of the gorge has a 2.1% amusement tax as of 2018. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=2ahUKEwj_7eCMltDlAhWIZd8KHT52B5UQFjACegQIAxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpennforesttownship.org%2Fsupervisorminutes%2FBOS-2018-01-02-REORGANIZATION.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2ON8PoTSyykeZUIqB85VU
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=2ahUKEwj_7eCMltDlAhWIZd8KHT52B5UQFjACegQIAxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpennforesttownship.org%2Fsupervisorminutes%2FBOS-2018-01-02-REORGANIZATION.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2ON8PoTSyykeZUIqB85VU
Link worked well enough for me. Thus you see the wages of arrogance.
Seeing this, I then explicitly checked to see if Kidder Township (which I believe is the corresponding entity for the west side of the gorge) has something... and, embarrassingly enough, they appear to:
https://ecode360.com/6466194
I was proceeding on the assumption that the ecode360 'directory' provided all the references to township code in Pennsylvania. Again we see demonstrated what happens when someone 'ASSume's.
I could salvage a very small bit from this by noting that the indicated 2.1% is much lower than Jim Thorpe's tax, but there's nothing preventing Penn Forest, or any other township north along the route (or in Luzerne County to the north) from implementing or increasing their tax if they sense an opportunity. In fact, Kidder (through which the LV ran; there was a famous wreck there in 1888) has this note, rendered in red in the ecode360 listing):
“This section of Ordinance No. 20-A shall and may be amended from time to time by the Board of Supervisors of the Township of Kidder by Resolution changing the rate of tax. The rate of tax may also be amended by Resolution of the Board of Supervisors of the Township of Kidder from time to time reflecting any amendments or changes made by statute of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.”
I'm beginning to wonder whether Andy's terminating the LG&N operation entirely might reflect a realization that the taxes could be made to apply to it, as presently constituted, if the various ordinances were recast to contain the language about railroads that is in Albany Township's ordinance. An immediate piece of research might be to check with the Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern (PO box 24, Kempton PA 19529; 610-756-6469) to see what their experience has been. (Notably they run on an 'isolated section' of ex-Reading line, and are probably not regulated by the PUC as a common carrier; the LG&N ran over track connected to the 'general system of transportation' and, of course, the RDC service from the south, as far as I know, will remain common-carrier point-to-point transportation without a putative 'entertainment' percentage analogous to a cover charge).
Greed will always carve up the Golden Goose!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Add horseback, sleighs, canoes, sedan chairs, heliocopters, and trucks to forms of transportation in my latest posting above on this thread.
zugmannLooks like Penn Forest Twp. (to the north of Jim Thorpe) and on the eastern side of the gorge has a 2.1% amusement tax as of 2018. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=2ahUKEwj_7eCMltDlAhWIZd8KHT52B5UQFjACegQIAxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpennforesttownship.org%2Fsupervisorminutes%2FBOS-2018-01-02-REORGANIZATION.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2ON8PoTSyykeZUIqB85VU
OvermodThis may be so ... but the only relevant discussion is which of the putative 'local taxing authorities' actually have statutes. If you can show one such statute for the land, say, that Mr. Klepper was talking about RBMN developing north of the Jim Thorpe line, I would be delighted to see it. (But I won't exactly be holding my breath for it.)
Looks like Penn Forest Twp. (to the north of Jim Thorpe) and on the eastern side of the gorge has a 2.1% amusement tax as of 2018.
https://www.tnonline.com/penn-forest-supervisor-asks-board-consider-temporary-occupancy-permits
Not sure if the following will work:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=2ahUKEwj_7eCMltDlAhWIZd8KHT52B5UQFjACegQIAxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpennforesttownship.org%2Fsupervisorminutes%2FBOS-2018-01-02-REORGANIZATION.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2ON8PoTSyykeZUIqB85VUb
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