Euclid When outsourcing began after year 2000, an unstoppable bandwagon carried it forward. I cautioned that we would lose jobs, but was told that we simply must compete, and that would be fair. Trade would be worldwide, free, and fair.
When outsourcing began after year 2000, an unstoppable bandwagon carried it forward. I cautioned that we would lose jobs, but was told that we simply must compete, and that would be fair. Trade would be worldwide, free, and fair.
Outsourcing began well before 2000.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Euclid When outsourcing began after year 2000, an unstoppable bandwagon carried it forward. I cautioned that we would lose jobs, but was told that we simply must compete, and that would be fair. Trade would be worldwide, free, and fair. But I knew that you cannot compete with someone who has a natural advantage, and China’s low overhead was an insurmountable advantage over us. It was only offset by the added difficulty of doing business in a foreign country, communicating with them, playing by their rules, and poor product quality. So this new outsourcing divided America into the two camps of "World Free Trade" and "Made in America". Only when enough time had passed, would China's cost of overhead rise enough to make us competitive with them. In the meantime, we were indeed on an unlevel playing field. But nowhere was the premise that this unlevel feature was unfair or illegal. Nobody ever said China was cheating. This idea has only come up within the last couple years. So I anticipated this problem and was not surprised to see the jobs fly out the door. But what I never imagined was that this imbalance would lead to a war declared against China over a manifesto of grievances that we demand must be satisfied; or we will destroy their economy. Now, it is said that China stole our jobs, and we won't stop fighting until those jobs are returned. Who would have ever thought it would come to this? I just figured we would drift off into some kind of economy where half the people needed services and the other half provided them. But we now seem to be turning into a country that says, “China must be stopped before they become the number one world manufacturing power.”
But I knew that you cannot compete with someone who has a natural advantage, and China’s low overhead was an insurmountable advantage over us. It was only offset by the added difficulty of doing business in a foreign country, communicating with them, playing by their rules, and poor product quality. So this new outsourcing divided America into the two camps of "World Free Trade" and "Made in America".
Only when enough time had passed, would China's cost of overhead rise enough to make us competitive with them. In the meantime, we were indeed on an unlevel playing field. But nowhere was the premise that this unlevel feature was unfair or illegal. Nobody ever said China was cheating. This idea has only come up within the last couple years.
So I anticipated this problem and was not surprised to see the jobs fly out the door. But what I never imagined was that this imbalance would lead to a war declared against China over a manifesto of grievances that we demand must be satisfied; or we will destroy their economy. Now, it is said that China stole our jobs, and we won't stop fighting until those jobs are returned. Who would have ever thought it would come to this?
I just figured we would drift off into some kind of economy where half the people needed services and the other half provided them. But we now seem to be turning into a country that says, “China must be stopped before they become the number one world manufacturing power.”
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Of course. He refers to the screwball "economist" and the current occupant.
I think he is intelligent and does not agree with "the architect," and is poking fun. Am I right, Euclid? We all know who "The Architect" in this case is.
EuclidBut then again, this slowing cannot be due to the tariffs because we are assured by the architect that the tariffs cannot hurt us because we are not the ones paying them. If anything, our "roaring economy" should be roaring even louder now due to the windfall of free money we are getting by taxing the dickens out China on the products they import to us.
When offshoring began after year 2000, an unstoppable bandwagon carried it forward. I cautioned that we would lose jobs, but was told that we simply must compete, and that would be fair. Trade would be worldwide, free, and fair.
Euclid charlie hebdo Third quarter: US economy grew at only 1.9%. Anyone who sees no connection with the trade wars has their eyes closed. I suspect that the slowdown may be a lagging economic indicator of the tariffs. So even if we ended the dispute today, we may be surprised as the lagging effect all comes crashing in over the next months. But then again, this slowing cannot be due to the tariffs because we are assured by the architect that the tariffs cannot hurt us because we are not the ones paying them. If anything, our "roaring economy" should be roaring even louder now due to the windfall of free money we are getting by taxing the dickens out China on the products they import to us.
charlie hebdo Third quarter: US economy grew at only 1.9%. Anyone who sees no connection with the trade wars has their eyes closed.
Third quarter: US economy grew at only 1.9%. Anyone who sees no connection with the trade wars has their eyes closed.
I suspect that the slowdown may be a lagging economic indicator of the tariffs. So even if we ended the dispute today, we may be surprised as the lagging effect all comes crashing in over the next months. But then again, this slowing cannot be due to the tariffs because we are assured by the architect that the tariffs cannot hurt us because we are not the ones paying them. If anything, our "roaring economy" should be roaring even louder now due to the windfall of free money we are getting by taxing the dickens out China on the products they import to us.
I feel no compulsion to listen to such noise.
I'm not sure it's just about the German model. Not many employees here are unionized. And I think customers are also stakeholders. Also the communities in which they do business. And governments. All are stakeholders.
A lot depends on the attitudes. Those are very different today compared to the roots of capitalism in the middle class of free-city dwellers in late-medieval Europe. Those bourgeoisie had a sense of responsibility to all, not just making profits.
charlie hebdo One way to start to change the situation is altering corporate governance to include fair input from all stakeholders: employees, shareholders and customers.
One way to start to change the situation is altering corporate governance to include fair input from all stakeholders: employees, shareholders and customers.
Yes, the German corporatist model. I think it would be the perfect solution, but I think it would take an existential crisis to make that happen in the U.S. - and even then, I have my doubts that such a model would be adopted. Unfortunately, corporations and unions have poisoned their own relationship to such an extent that I can't see any corporate board allowing a union rep into the boardroom, unless it's to get them coffee.
Lithonia Operator Okay, I'll bite. You alone have decided to create some arbitrary litmus test. That somehow, if no one who opposes greedy corporate conduct can come up with a magic solution, then that means it's not a real problem. There is zero logic in that. What I would LIKE is if corporations would be better citizens and care more about the society and their employees than they do about stockholders and their bigwigs. Or at least as much. Conservatives do not like government intervention in most things, they say. So I am sure that if I propose a law to address this gap, it will be decried as unAmerican. But I'll do it anyway. I could totally be happy if there was a federal law that said that no single employee can make more than 50 times the average pay of all the employees combined. So if a company's average pay is $60K, the CEO could draw 3 million. That's a pretty nice check. But legislation is not what I want. What I want is a different culture, one that places more emphasis on the people who do the actual work, and the communities they are in. Changing a culture requires a change in values, and that must be conyeyed by leaders in business, government, religion, education and so on. There is a lack of moral leadership in this country. You say "nobody seems to want to solve the problem." That's ridiculous. You are grabbing that out of thin air. Where is the evidence for that? You are creating your own bogus rules of the game, then acting as the sole referee to determine whose points have some validity. I reject your straw dogs. Unwillingness to buy into these made-up constructs has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of one's points.
Okay, I'll bite.
You alone have decided to create some arbitrary litmus test. That somehow, if no one who opposes greedy corporate conduct can come up with a magic solution, then that means it's not a real problem. There is zero logic in that.
What I would LIKE is if corporations would be better citizens and care more about the society and their employees than they do about stockholders and their bigwigs. Or at least as much.
Conservatives do not like government intervention in most things, they say. So I am sure that if I propose a law to address this gap, it will be decried as unAmerican. But I'll do it anyway.
I could totally be happy if there was a federal law that said that no single employee can make more than 50 times the average pay of all the employees combined. So if a company's average pay is $60K, the CEO could draw 3 million. That's a pretty nice check.
But legislation is not what I want. What I want is a different culture, one that places more emphasis on the people who do the actual work, and the communities they are in. Changing a culture requires a change in values, and that must be conyeyed by leaders in business, government, religion, education and so on. There is a lack of moral leadership in this country.
You say "nobody seems to want to solve the problem." That's ridiculous. You are grabbing that out of thin air. Where is the evidence for that?
You are creating your own bogus rules of the game, then acting as the sole referee to determine whose points have some validity.
I reject your straw dogs. Unwillingness to buy into these made-up constructs has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of one's points.
I think that when most people say executive pay is too high, they are definitely thinking of a solution arising from the application of law such as something like wage and price controls. I don’t think they are thinking of a remedy based on changing the culture, moral values, etc. But I do agree that either approach could change everything.
But for me personally, I just don’t see a problem that needs fixing. I don’t think that executive pay is causing any problem. The people that do think it is a problem seem to believe that high executive pay makes other peoples’ pay lower. It seems to be based in the belief that there is only so much money that is somehow provided for us, and we are to divide it up fairly. And we should all get together and agree how much is too much. It should not be up to the people that hire CEOs to decide how much to pay them.
I do not believe there is just a finite amount of money. Money is created by human effort. There is more money every day. Each person creates their own money and gets to keep it. We are free to spend it on things we want or to just give it away.
charlie hebdo BaltACD charlie hebdo One way to start to change the situation is altering corporate governance to include fair input from all stakeholders: employees, shareholders and customers. In today's world - I have a bridge to sell you, Cheap! Jeez! Short of a violent and stupid revolution, what's your idea?
BaltACD charlie hebdo One way to start to change the situation is altering corporate governance to include fair input from all stakeholders: employees, shareholders and customers. In today's world - I have a bridge to sell you, Cheap!
In today's world - I have a bridge to sell you, Cheap!
Jeez! Short of a violent and stupid revolution, what's your idea?
In as much as it is known that excrement rolls down hill - You have to start at the top of the country's power pyramid - which must not consider itself above the law.
EuclidBut let ask it this way: If you could wave a magic wand and solve the problem of CEOs robbing society; what solution to the problem would you produce? It is a little fishy that nobody seems to want to solve the problem.
Yancey Strickler, the founder of Kickstarter, is presently on a book tour (he's in NYC on the 30th) having written a book that purports how to set up one kind of organizational alternative being bruited around here.
Admittedly, I said I was bowing out. But I let myself get sucked back in. I shouldn't have.
Anyway, I'm going to try again. My failure to respond to anyone challenging my views going forward doesn't mean anything one way or the other.
Meanwhile, are carloadings up yet ... ?
Euclid Lithonia Operator That's the thing. Someone else pointed this out earlier in the thread also. The idea that CEO pay is the result of some kind of meritocracy is a huge myth. The people at the top take care of each other. These people make this kind of money largely because it's them deciding how much they get. Yes, I have heard that a thousand times. The evil CEOs who contribute nothing are taking way more than their fair share because they can and nobody can stop them. And I have asked a thousand times: What are you going to do about it? You might then say there is nothing that can be done about it. But let ask it this way: If you could wave a magic wand and solve the problem of CEOs robbing society; what solution to the problem would you produce? It is a little fishy that nobody seems to want to solve the problem.
Lithonia Operator That's the thing. Someone else pointed this out earlier in the thread also. The idea that CEO pay is the result of some kind of meritocracy is a huge myth. The people at the top take care of each other. These people make this kind of money largely because it's them deciding how much they get.
Yes, I have heard that a thousand times. The evil CEOs who contribute nothing are taking way more than their fair share because they can and nobody can stop them. And I have asked a thousand times: What are you going to do about it? You might then say there is nothing that can be done about it.
But let ask it this way: If you could wave a magic wand and solve the problem of CEOs robbing society; what solution to the problem would you produce?
It is a little fishy that nobody seems to want to solve the problem.
charlie hebdoOne way to start to change the situation is altering corporate governance to include fair input from all stakeholders: employees, shareholders and customers.
EuclidBut let ask it this way: If you could wave a magic wand and solve the problem of CEOs robbing society; what solution to the problem would you produce?
Start working back toward that 20 times number. BODs have to embrace that, the potential CEO's have to embrace that. Perhaps a voluntary freeze on CEO wages. "Sorry - we're holding your salary at $100 million this year..."
Of course, a major part of the problem is that back when the 20X factor was the "rule," companies were, on the whole, much smaller, and the CEO was that much closer to the workers. I suspect the closer to the workers a CEO is, the lower their salary will be.
Today we have layers upon layers of megamergers, the results of which is probably where you'll find the CEOs with the outsized salaries. These folks are no longer running a company - they are running a holding corporation. Some may not even realize they are manufacturing Acme Catapults.
EuclidIt is a little fishy that nobody seems to want to solve the problem.
Is it a question of no one wants to, or no one really knows how? How long will it be before a potential CEO decides that he might as well take that $90M a year because no one is going to offer him $100M?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACD SD60MAC9500 CEO compensation is determined by the BoD.. CEO’s are also chosen by the BoD... In addition those of you who invest in the stock market you would know this unless you are a passive investor, and don’t care about your investment .... Also unskilled labor doesn’t need to make or equal wages of skilled labor.. Example someone screwing or placing parts on an assembly line doesn’t need to have a total compensation package averaging $70K per annum.. It’s funny we don’t have this same sentiment for Teachers who actually provide value to the public.. Like I said before this nation shot itself in the foot, and continues to do so with bad outdated information that people latch onto like a crybaby screaming for Mama! When discipline and ethic return to this Nation don’t expect any productivity from a nation of fools who are more excited about the legalization of smoking weed and being gender confused.... BoD's are filled from the CEO 'class'. BoD's with a number of other company's CEO's tend to 'feather the nest' of the company CEO, with the expectation (and experience) that the nest feathering will get handed on in the next BoD that the selected CEO becomes a member of. CEO's really fall into the clique of 'unskilled labor' as for the most part they cannot perform any of the actions required to produce the product(s) their company's sell for the company's income.
SD60MAC9500 CEO compensation is determined by the BoD.. CEO’s are also chosen by the BoD... In addition those of you who invest in the stock market you would know this unless you are a passive investor, and don’t care about your investment .... Also unskilled labor doesn’t need to make or equal wages of skilled labor.. Example someone screwing or placing parts on an assembly line doesn’t need to have a total compensation package averaging $70K per annum.. It’s funny we don’t have this same sentiment for Teachers who actually provide value to the public.. Like I said before this nation shot itself in the foot, and continues to do so with bad outdated information that people latch onto like a crybaby screaming for Mama! When discipline and ethic return to this Nation don’t expect any productivity from a nation of fools who are more excited about the legalization of smoking weed and being gender confused....
BoD's are filled from the CEO 'class'. BoD's with a number of other company's CEO's tend to 'feather the nest' of the company CEO, with the expectation (and experience) that the nest feathering will get handed on in the next BoD that the selected CEO becomes a member of.
CEO's really fall into the clique of 'unskilled labor' as for the most part they cannot perform any of the actions required to produce the product(s) their company's sell for the company's income.
That's the thing. Someone else pointed this out earlier in the thread also. The idea that CEO pay is the result of some kind of meritocracy is a huge myth. The people at the top take care of each other. These people make this kind of money largely because it's them deciding how much they get.
BaltACDBoD's are filled from the CEO 'class'. BoD's with a number of other company's CEO's tend to 'feather the nest' of the company CEO, with the expectation (and experience) that the nest feathering will get handed on in the next BoD that the selected CEO becomes a member of. CEO's really fall into the clique of 'unskilled labor' as for the most part they cannot perform any of the actions required to produce the product(s) their company's sell for the company's income.
SD60MAC9500CEO compensation is determined by the BoD.. CEO’s are also chosen by the BoD... In addition those of you who invest in the stock market you would know this unless you are a passive investor, and don’t care about your investment .... Also unskilled labor doesn’t need to make or equal wages of skilled labor.. Example someone screwing or placing parts on an assembly line doesn’t need to have a total compensation package averaging $70K per annum.. It’s funny we don’t have this same sentiment for Teachers who actually provide value to the public.. Like I said before this nation shot itself in the foot, and continues to do so with bad outdated information that people latch onto like a crybaby screaming for Mama! When discipline and ethic return to this Nation don’t expect any productivity from a nation of fools who are more excited about the legalization of smoking weed and being gender confused....
daveklepper I'm completely with you and recommend better and more education as a step in the problem's solution.
I'm completely with you and recommend better and more education as a step in the problem's solution.
I agree, and it needs to be a two-tiered system. We aren't doing anyone any favors by pretending that college is for everyone, because it isn't. Everyone is blessed with different talents; some are good with numbers, some with computers, and still others with their hands. That latter cohort needs to be served with a robust German-style vocational education system that trains people for highly-skilled blue-collar professions. But more than that, we need to move past the mentality that little junior is a failure because he doesn't want to go to college.
But even if we do all that, we still might find ourselves in a predicament a few decades down the road if technology advances to a point where machines can replace even the most highly-skilled blue-collar workers. At that point, I don't see how we can avoid some sort of redistribution and/or "make-work" jobs to give people a reason to get up in the morning. Of course, the mere mention of the word "redistribution" causes certain people to scream "LIBRUL! LIBRUL!" but I'm not. I just want to see our wonderful capitalist system survive and do what it's supposed to do: make life better for everyone.
CEO compensation is determined by the BoD.. CEO’s are also chosen by the BoD... In addition those of you who invest in the stock market you would know this unless you are a passive investor, and don’t care about your investment .... Also unskilled labor doesn’t need to make or equal wages of skilled labor.. Example someone screwing or placing parts on an assembly line doesn’t need to have a total compensation package averaging $70K per annum.. It’s funny we don’t have this same sentiment for Teachers who actually provide value to the public.. Like I said before this nation shot itself in the foot, and continues to do so with bad outdated information that people latch onto like a crybaby screaming for Mama! When discipline and ethic return to this Nation don’t expect any productivity from a nation of fools who are more excited about the legalization of smoking weed and being gender confused....
charlie hebdo Lithonia Operator rdamon However one bad CEO can take down the whole company After which, they send him away with a multi-million dollar golden parachute. Boeing? I wonder what the consequences will be for their CEO?
Lithonia Operator rdamon However one bad CEO can take down the whole company After which, they send him away with a multi-million dollar golden parachute.
rdamon However one bad CEO can take down the whole company
However one bad CEO can take down the whole company
After which, they send him away with a multi-million dollar golden parachute.
Boeing? I wonder what the consequences will be for their CEO?
There may not be any. Will be interesting to see. But if he goes, it will be with lots of money.
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