Trains.com

Freight continues to slump

11106 views
255 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    May 2019
  • 1,768 posts
Posted by MMLDelete on Saturday, October 26, 2019 8:44 AM

Let me get this straight. If a thread contains discussion of antique aircraft the moderators swing into action. But if specifically-forbidden political content drones on for page after page, the moderators nap?

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Saturday, October 26, 2019 7:40 AM

CMStPnP
 
SD70Dude
So overall, Navarro's punishment of China may only make them stronger and make us weaker.

 

Reads like they are getting stronger too.......NOT

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3018991/chinas-total-debt-rises-over-300-cent-gdp-beijing-loosens

Kind of interesting a country growing at over 6% a year would need to borrow so much money.  While the stats in the article might be inflated, Chinese debt is rapidly growing, you can Google and see there is no dispute with that.   If you buy into their growth stats, there is the question of where all this borrowed money is being spent?    Unless of course it is all smoke and mirrors.

A lot of their infrastructure money is wasted on shabbily built projects that fall apart in a few years to a decade timeframe.   Have you looked at any of the youtube videos from Americans and other ex-patriots living in China.    Suggest you take a little time and do so.    We are not talking just a few hundred million mispent we are at least talking tens of billions mispent with whole cities built new but completely vacant of people.   High Speed Trains with little or no patronage, etc.   No doubt China does not like this information to leak out and has it's share of cheer leaders in the Western Press.    Go look at youtube from Americans that live there and see it first hand.

The entire notion that Communists manage economies well and spend government monies well has never, and I mean never, been demonstrated on planet Earth.   Except we are led to believe by our media that the Chinese Communist Party is different from all the rest.    You can buy into that line if you want.   I will listen to Americans that live in the country and report back on what they see.   They won't be there much longer as Chairman Xi is booting out as much foriegners as he can.   Moving to a wartime footing with increasing propaganda and shut out of the Western press.....harrassing ex-patriots that live there now to get them to leave.

 

What you quoted above is from my comment, not a comment by SD70Dude.  You are interpreting it as though I said it is a current trend.  Actually, in context, it shows that I was referring to a long term outcome of the trade war, and the outcome has not begun yet in any measurable way.  It certainly does not indicate that China is well managed or has a good economy at this time as you suggest the comment means. 

In context, what I said was that the trade war will hurt both us and China.  If we are being lied to about anything, it is the claim that the tariffs will not hurt us at all, and are only a free windfall for us as though we are directly taxing China as punishment.  That is pure "Tooth Fairy."  It is a perpetual motion machine. 

I went on to suggest that while the tariffs will hurt us as well as China, China may be in a position to take the beating better than we will.  I said I have read analysts say that the tariffs force manufacturers to move production out of China and to non-tariff countries.  While on the face of it, the loss of manufacturing will hurt China, it may open the door for them to begin a new phase of manufacturing of higher value, industrial components, which will further compete with us at a higher level.  

As this happens, we may find we are in a deep and prolonged recession after believing only one man who led us into this economic morass while telling us it won't have any effect on our country.

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • 260 posts
Posted by Psychot on Saturday, October 26, 2019 3:44 AM

CMStPnP

 

 
SD70Dude
So overall, Navarro's punishment of China may only make them stronger and make us weaker.

 

Reads like they are getting stronger too.......NOT

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3018991/chinas-total-debt-rises-over-300-cent-gdp-beijing-loosens

Kind of interesting a country growing at over 6% a year would need to borrow so much money.  While the stats in the article might be inflated, Chinese debt is rapidly growing, you can Google and see there is no dispute with that.   If you buy into their growth stats, there is the question of where all this borrowed money is being spent?    Unless of course it is all smoke and mirrors.

A lot of their infrastructure money is wasted on shabbily built projects that fall apart in a few years to a decade timeframe.   Have you looked at any of the youtube videos from Americans and other ex-patriots living in China.    Suggest you take a little time and do so.    We are not talking just a few hundred million mispent we are at least talking tens of billions mispent with whole cities built new but completely vacant of people.   High Speed Trains with little or no patronage, etc.   No doubt China does not like this information to leak out and has it's share of cheer leaders in the Western Press.    Go look at youtube from Americans that live there and see it first hand.

The entire notion that Communists manage economies well and spend government monies well has never, and I mean never, been demonstrated on planet Earth.   Except we are led to believe by our media that the Chinese Communist Party is different from all the rest.    You can buy into that line if you want.   I will listen to Americans that live in the country and report back on what they see.   They won't be there much longer as Chairman Xi is booting out as much foriegners as he can.   Moving to a wartime footing with increasing propaganda and shut out of the Western press.....harrassing ex-patriots that live there now to get them to leave.

 

I think there was some cause to admire the CCP's way of doing things (in a purely economic sense) when they had more-or-less technocratic governments that changed every 5 years. But human nature kicked in and the inevitable happened: Xi has made himself president for life. We're already seeing the megalomania, hubris, cult of personality and other excesses that inevitably accompany such things. Now, all bets are off, especially since China is facing demographic issues and has already picked the low-hanging economic fruit.

The time of reckoning will come for China, but it's not the trade war that will bring it on, and it's not going to happen in the next decade.

  • Member since
    June 2009
  • From: Dallas, TX
  • 6,952 posts
Posted by CMStPnP on Saturday, October 26, 2019 1:09 AM

SD70Dude
So overall, Navarro's punishment of China may only make them stronger and make us weaker.

Reads like they are getting stronger too.......NOT

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3018991/chinas-total-debt-rises-over-300-cent-gdp-beijing-loosens

Kind of interesting a country growing at over 6% a year would need to borrow so much money.  While the stats in the article might be inflated, Chinese debt is rapidly growing, you can Google and see there is no dispute with that.   If you buy into their growth stats, there is the question of where all this borrowed money is being spent?    Unless of course it is all smoke and mirrors.

A lot of their infrastructure money is wasted on shabbily built projects that fall apart in a few years to a decade timeframe.   Have you looked at any of the youtube videos from Americans and other ex-patriots living in China.    Suggest you take a little time and do so.    We are not talking just a few hundred million mispent we are at least talking tens of billions mispent with whole cities built new but completely vacant of people.   High Speed Trains with little or no patronage, etc.   No doubt China does not like this information to leak out and has it's share of cheer leaders in the Western Press.    Go look at youtube from Americans that live there and see it first hand.

The entire notion that Communists manage economies well and spend government monies well has never, and I mean never, been demonstrated on planet Earth.   Except we are led to believe by our media that the Chinese Communist Party is different from all the rest.    You can buy into that line if you want.   I will listen to Americans that live in the country and report back on what they see.   They won't be there much longer as Chairman Xi is booting out as much foriegners as he can.   Moving to a wartime footing with increasing propaganda and shut out of the Western press.....harrassing ex-patriots that live there now to get them to leave.

  • Member since
    June 2009
  • From: Dallas, TX
  • 6,952 posts
Posted by CMStPnP on Saturday, October 26, 2019 1:00 AM

Gramp
I hope enough people realize what the leadership of China is.

War is comming in my view.   China knows it and is getting ready.

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Saturday, October 26, 2019 12:52 AM

Well stated Gramp. I like that!

Just to reinterate, my previous post " well it is fast becoming apparent that the West will have to choose between Chinese money or a marketplace of free thinking ideas. 

It is the Chinese that are driving that, not the USA or the West. 

  • Member since
    October 2014
  • 1,139 posts
Posted by Gramp on Saturday, October 26, 2019 12:22 AM

There’s that saying about knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.  I hope enough people realize what the leadership of China is.

  • Member since
    December 2017
  • From: I've been everywhere, man
  • 4,269 posts
Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, October 25, 2019 10:39 AM

Euclid
SD70Dude
Fake news and alternative facts I say!

What is?

Your critique of Navarro.  My tongue is firmly planted in my cheek!

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Friday, October 25, 2019 10:17 AM

SD70Dude
Fake news and alternative facts I say!

What is?

  • Member since
    December 2017
  • From: I've been everywhere, man
  • 4,269 posts
Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, October 25, 2019 9:56 AM

Euclid
SD60MAC9500
Euclid

Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro.  This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China.  He is on lifetime mission to even the score with China.  He cites his "Seven Deadly Sins" of China and demands their repentance or he will destroy their economy with his weapon of import tariffs.  He lives in a fantasy land where he can destroy China's economy in order to bring utopianism to the U.S.

https://reason.com/2019/10/17/trumps-anti-china-trade-advisor-invented-a-fake-economist-to-sell-his-protectionist-trade-views/

He is in complete denial in believing his destruction of China can occur in a vacuum with no effect on us. 

More than denial I’d say.  China National Railways has posted double digit gains in rail traffic throughout the last 3 quarters. While we are nearing double digit retraction by the latest AAR report... So these tariffs are hurting who now? Perhaps it’s time we quit being a country of buck passers and realize we have problems that we created or helped create to stagnate our nations well being..

Yes, it may very well turn out that Navarro's attack on China backfires on us.  There is something inherently dangerous about a proud, stubborn, and arrogant man claiming that we cannot be harmed because we have righteousness on our side.  Just when you think nothing can go wrong, there goes the Titanic. 

China may have the strength to weather this storm.  And the storm will also hurt us as Navarro assures us that is impossible.  Our squeeze on China will force their manufacturing to leave to seek non-tariffed producers such as Taiwan. I have read opinions that claim that China losing this lowest tier of manufacturing, that is, the cheapest consumer goods, will make way for them to step up to the next higher tier of manufacturing, which will be more valuable industrial products.  Those are what's left of the products we used to manufacture before this outsourcing began.  So overall, Navarro's punishment of China may only make them stronger and make us weaker.

Fake news and alternative facts I say!

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Friday, October 25, 2019 9:46 AM

SD60MAC9500
 
Euclid

Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro.  This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China.  He is on lifetime mission to even the score with China.  He cites his "Seven Deadly Sins" of China and demands their repentance or he will destroy their economy with his weapon of import tariffs.  He lives in a fantasy land where he can destroy China's economy in order to bring utopianism to the U.S.

https://reason.com/2019/10/17/trumps-anti-china-trade-advisor-invented-a-fake-economist-to-sell-his-protectionist-trade-views/

 

He is in complete denial in believing his destruction of China can occur in a vacuum with no effect on us. 

 

 

 

More than denial I’d say.  China National Railways has posted double digit gains in rail traffic throughout the last 3 quarters. While we are nearing double digit retraction by the latest AAR report... So these tariffs are hurting who now? Perhaps it’s time we quit being a country of buck passers and realize we have problems that we created or helped create to stagnate our nations well being..

 

 

Yes, it may very well turn out that Navarro's attack on China backfires on us.  There is something inherently dangerous about a proud, stubborn, and arrogant man claiming that we cannot be harmed because we have righteousness on our side.  Just when you think nothing can go wrong, there goes the Titanic. 

China may have the strength to weather this storm.  And the storm will also hurt us as Navarro assures us that is impossible.  Our squeeze on China will force their manufacturing to leave to seek non-tariffed producers such as Taiwan. I have read opinions that claim that China losing this lowest tier of manufacturing, that is, the cheapest consumer goods, will make way for them to step up to the next higher tier of manufacturing, which will be more valuable industrial products.  Those are what's left of the products we used to manufacture before this outsourcing began.  So overall, Navarro's punishment of China may only make them stronger and make us weaker.

  • Member since
    September 2002
  • From: Sterling Heights, Michigan
  • 1,691 posts
Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Friday, October 25, 2019 8:54 AM

Euclid

Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro.  This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China.  He is on lifetime mission to even the score with China.  He cites his "Seven Deadly Sins" of China and demands their repentance or he will destroy their economy with his weapon of import tariffs.  He lives in a fantasy land where he can destroy China's economy in order to bring utopianism to the U.S.

https://reason.com/2019/10/17/trumps-anti-china-trade-advisor-invented-a-fake-economist-to-sell-his-protectionist-trade-views/

 

He is in complete denial in believing his destruction of China can occur in a vacuum with no effect on us. 

 

More than denial I’d say.  China National Railways has posted double digit gains in rail traffic throughout the last 3 quarters. While we are nearing double digit retraction by the latest AAR report... So these tariffs are hurting who now? Perhaps it’s time we quit being a country of buck passers and realize we have problems that we created or helped create to stagnate our nations well being..

Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Friday, October 25, 2019 8:10 AM

People say they want free trade, but it has to be fair trade.  The problem is that they tend to be mutually exclusive.  In a free trade scenario, there is no "level playing field" except for the actual laws that govern it.  Otherwise, a level playing field is only an unobtainable wish that is part of so-called "fair" trade.  In that sense, a level playing field is one of the dreams of utopianism.

Just competition alone makes the playing field unlevel.  The whole underlying principle of China joining the World Trade Organization was based on "free trade."  The benefit of free trade is that the producer who produces the best product at the lowest cost, gets the job. So there are winners and losers. 

Now, free/fair is not quite so black and white.  Some would say that the competition of free trade is fair with a level playing field unless one side cheats.  That is how it fits into the sports analogy of playing fields. 

But generally, the way this analogy is being applied to world trade, the complaint about the playing field being unlevel is sour grapes about losing the game as it is played by the rules.  This sour grapes is what is behind Peter Navarro's Seven Deadly Sins that China is committing.  These are ginned up by Navarro to explain why China is out-competing up. These sins are what Navarro cites as China cheating and making the playing field unlevel.  On the face of it, he is not saying that their victory in pure business competition is cheating.  But he also does not credit that honest performance as being the reason why China is winning the game.  Instead, he attributes their win to cheating.

Nobody wants to lose their job to a competitor, and in their bitterness, they will complain that their competitor cheated.  That is the Navarro view.  The real reason why China out-competes us is that they have a lower standard of living; so they have less overhead cost.  Once instant communication and automation arrived, China could come into the competition with their lower overhead and win every time. 

So we lost jobs to China.  But that does provide the lowest cost products that everyone loves.  And that is the perfect fulfillment of the promise of "free trade."  And it is also the reason why we buy a lot more from China than they buy from us.  Yet that fact alone is cited by Navarro and our Administration as being a crime by China.  This is the complaint of a bitter loser-- look at the imbalance of trade and call it unfair. 

The U.S. is a big player and we have a lot of power in the world.  And now we have adopted the bitter loser role with a vow to get even with China because all of our woes are their fault for cheating us in trade.  Can you see how unstable and dangerous this is?

Navarro is a smart guy with very strong opinions.  He is a street fighter in debate.  He wrote some books that got him selected for this job as World Trade Advisor.  He sees us in a war with China, which has been the theme of his writing going back years.  This is the fulfillment of his life dream.  But watch him debate.  Watch how he takes the argument down a rabbit hole of technical jargon that has no clear meaning, but only serves to intimidate his debate opponent.  Watch how he always resorts to anger and bitterness to further the intimidation.       

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • 260 posts
Posted by Psychot on Friday, October 25, 2019 2:10 AM

York1

 

 
Euclid
Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro.  This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China.

 

In 2016, President Obama's administration instituted 266% tariffs on Chinese cold rolled steel, and Peter Navarro had nothing to do with it.  Were you upset then?

 

 

 
Euclid
You make it sound like they are on a quest for forceful world conquest.

 

I'm not sure that's so far-fetched.  Xi Jinping vowed to make the Chinese military the number one modern military by 2035.

 

 

 
Euclid
It is called competition and they are successful competitors. 

 

You call it competition.  I call it cheating.  Last year, Microsoft's former CEO Ballmer said that Chinese theft of Microsoft products cost the company $10 billion.  This was not just some Chinese citizens using unlicensed Windows.  90% of Chinese companies were using Microsoft Windows, but only 1% paid for it.  This is piracy encouraged by the government through lax and unenforced laws.  

 

100% true. So how is the current trade war going to stop that?

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • 260 posts
Posted by Psychot on Friday, October 25, 2019 1:58 AM

Euclid

York1

 
Euclid
As to China, it's their country.  They get to have the laws they want.  It you want to manufacture in their country, they make the rules. 

 

Exactly.  Since we don't like their cheating, our country is doing what is in its power to stop American purchases from their manufacturers.  I understand you don't like that.

 

 
Euclid
So what do we do to prevent China from becoming number one?  Somebody has got to be number one.  There will always be a number one. 

 

This is not about who is number one.  This is about free trade.  When one country cheats, the exchange is no longer considered free trade.

Yes, tariffs are bad.  They cost money.  They cause economic problems.  But sometimes, it's necessary to take steps that hurt in the short range to cure long-range problems.

It's about protecting our country, our property, and our citizens' quality of life and way of life.

 

 

 

I think you misunderstand me.  I wish all our products were made in the U.S. and none made in China.  I don't want to buy anything made in China unless I have to, and I make a big effort to not buy Chinese made products.  I find defects in nearly every mechanical product made in China.  I am willing to pay more for better quality than what comes from China, but a lot, if not most people want the cheapest price, and they also don't realize that the quality varies with price.  So our country has a huge market demand for Chinese products because they shop by price only.  

 

Not only does this market crowd out the availability of higher quality domestic made products; but it is also having another effect that I think is even more troubling.  That is that the high demand for Chinese products has educated our U.S. marketing that our market wants lowest price even if it means a sacrifice in quality. 

It was not long ago that U.S. marketing thought they could compete with China by offering higher quality to a large domestic market that demanded higher quality than what China offers.  But the demand for Chinese products has proven the U.S. marketing assumption wrong.  The market for higher quality products in the U.S. is far smaller than our marketing believed.  So they are on a race to the bottom almost with a vengeance to show U.S. consumers that U.S. manufacturing can out-cheapen China.  I think this spells the end of an reasonable degree of quality in products no matter who makes them.  This is becoming very obvious with products like home appliances.  

So, being that I don't want Chinese products, I don't care if you legally ban their import.  That would raise the price of products in this country, but that is the market I prefer.  So ban Chinese products and bring all the jobs back. 

But we are not going to ban Chinese products.  We are going to punish China by damaging their country by reducing their imports to us by the use of tariffs.  You say it is about protecting our country.  But using tariffs will damge our country as well as China.  That it the part I object to.  It will slow down our economy besides slowing down the economy of China.  Only one person says it won't hurt us at all, and that is Peter Navarro.  But in my opinion, he wants to believe that because he is blinded by his ideological hatred of China. 

You say you don't mind if it hurts in the short range if it helps in the long range.  I believe this tariff action is far more radical than most people realize.  I think it is doing tremendous damage to China and to the U.S., but the big effects of big actions take some time to manifest, and that manifestation is only now just beginning after over a year of tariffs and threats to destroy China's economy. So people are being lulled into the belief that we are getting even with China, but they don't realize that we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

Sure, it if only hurts a little in the short range and provides a major benefit in the long range, fine.  But, believe it is quite possible that it will be painless in the short range and cause tremendous damage in the long range to the whole world economy and especially to our country and to China.  So, that's what I am saying.  

What benefit do you expect the tariffs will bring to us?  What will change and how? Do you think China will decide to buy as much from us as we buy from them?  Do you think they will promise not steal our intellectual property.  This kind of reaction seems to be what is expected by our Administration.  Navarro says we will ramp up tariffs until China stops committing the Seven Deadly Sins.  How do you see the tariffs curing long range problems?      

 

 

 Well said. It's all well and good, in principle, to want to level the playing field for U.S. businesses in China -- but as always, it's as much about the execution of the idea as it is about the idea itself. In this case, the notion that the dictatorship in China is going to capitulate to the U.S. because the tariffs are causing some hardships for their citizens is pure folly. As I have said before, the most likely scenario is that China makes some symbolic concessions on trade--without addressing the core issues, intellectual property theft and state-owned corporations, at all--and both sides spin it as a win. 

By the way, I note with some amusement that the first recourse of those who support the trade war is always some version of "the Dems like tariffs too!" That's certainly true, but it's also completely irrelevant to any argument on the merits of current trade policy. It's yet another manifestation of the current political environment wherein if you disagree with someone, by definition you must be a rabid extremist on the other side of the spectrum.

  • Member since
    September 2017
  • 5,636 posts
Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, October 24, 2019 10:22 PM

Most were passed before the crash,  at least in the states. 

  • Member since
    October 2014
  • 1,139 posts
Posted by Gramp on Thursday, October 24, 2019 10:16 PM

Re: slump

It wasn’t so long ago the news was about serious truck driver shortages. 

Into awareness...insanity definition 

  • Member since
    September 2017
  • 5,636 posts
Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, October 24, 2019 9:46 PM

Duplicate

  • Member since
    December 2017
  • From: I've been everywhere, man
  • 4,269 posts
Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, October 24, 2019 8:52 PM

York1
SD70Dude

I wonder what percentage of Trump supporters actively seek out American made products, as opposed to stopping by Wal-Mart and picking up the usual Chinese and Mexican made stuff?

How many people who oppose tariffs today didn't oppose tariffs when President Obama was in office?

In Congress or the general public?

To be honest, I think the average citizen (myself included) wouldn't recognize a tariff if it punched them in the nose.  We certainly don't understand their real effects.

I do recall reading somewhere that after the start of the Great Depression multiple nations instituted protectionist tariffs, which had the effect of shutting down trade and making the depression worse.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    February 2018
  • From: Flyover Country
  • 5,557 posts
Posted by York1 on Thursday, October 24, 2019 8:44 PM

SD70Dude

I wonder what percentage of Trump supporters actively seek out American made products, as opposed to stopping by Wal-Mart and picking up the usual Chinese and Mexican made stuff?

 

 

How many people who oppose tariffs today didn't oppose tariffs when President Obama was in office?

York1 John       

  • Member since
    February 2018
  • From: Flyover Country
  • 5,557 posts
Posted by York1 on Thursday, October 24, 2019 8:41 PM

Euclid
I think you misunderstand me.  I wish all our products were made in the U.S. and none made in China.  I don't want to buy anything made in China unless I have to, and I make a big effort to not buy Chinese made products.

 

I appreciate your views.  Thanks for the discussion.

I'm quitting tonight -- big day tomorrow.  Driving early to visit grandkids.

York1 John       

  • Member since
    December 2017
  • From: I've been everywhere, man
  • 4,269 posts
Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, October 24, 2019 8:29 PM

I wonder what percentage of Trump supporters actively seek out American made products, as opposed to stopping by Wal-Mart and picking up the usual Chinese and Mexican made stuff?

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Thursday, October 24, 2019 8:28 PM

Hmmm... well it is fast becoming apparent that the West will have to choose between Chinese money or a marketplace of free thinking ideas. 

It is the Chinese that are driving that, not the USA or the West. 

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Thursday, October 24, 2019 7:56 PM

York1
 
Euclid
As to China, it's their country.  They get to have the laws they want.  It you want to manufacture in their country, they make the rules. 

 

Exactly.  Since we don't like their cheating, our country is doing what is in its power to stop American purchases from their manufacturers.  I understand you don't like that.

 

 
Euclid
So what do we do to prevent China from becoming number one?  Somebody has got to be number one.  There will always be a number one. 

 

This is not about who is number one.  This is about free trade.  When one country cheats, the exchange is no longer considered free trade.

Yes, tariffs are bad.  They cost money.  They cause economic problems.  But sometimes, it's necessary to take steps that hurt in the short range to cure long-range problems.

It's about protecting our country, our property, and our citizens' quality of life and way of life.

 

I think you misunderstand me.  I wish all our products were made in the U.S. and none made in China.  I don't want to buy anything made in China unless I have to, and I make a big effort to not buy Chinese made products.  I find defects in nearly every mechanical product made in China.  I am willing to pay more for better quality than what comes from China, but a lot, if not most people want the cheapest price, and they also don't realize that the quality varies with price.  So our country has a huge market demand for Chinese products because they shop by price only.  

Not only does this market crowd out the availability of higher quality domestic made products; but it is also having another effect that I think is even more troubling.  That is that the high demand for Chinese products has educated our U.S. marketing that our market wants lowest price even if it means a sacrifice in quality. 

It was not long ago that U.S. marketing thought they could compete with China by offering higher quality to a large domestic market that demanded higher quality than what China offers.  But the demand for Chinese products has proven the U.S. marketing assumption wrong.  The market for higher quality products in the U.S. is far smaller than our marketing believed.  So they are on a race to the bottom almost with a vengeance to show U.S. consumers that U.S. manufacturing can out-cheapen China.  I think this spells the end of an reasonable degree of quality in products no matter who makes them.  This is becoming very obvious with products like home appliances.  

So, being that I don't want Chinese products, I don't care if you legally ban their import.  That would raise the price of products in this country, but that is the market I prefer.  So ban Chinese products and bring all the jobs back. 

But we are not going to ban Chinese products.  We are going to punish China by damaging their country by reducing their imports to us by the use of tariffs.  You say it is about protecting our country.  But using tariffs will damge our country as well as China.  That it the part I object to.  It will slow down our economy besides slowing down the economy of China.  Only one person says it won't hurt us at all, and that is Peter Navarro.  But in my opinion, he wants to believe that because he is blinded by his ideological hatred of China. 

You say you don't mind if it hurts in the short range if it helps in the long range.  I believe this tariff action is far more radical than most people realize.  I think it is doing tremendous damage to China and to the U.S., but the big effects of big actions take some time to manifest, and that manifestation is only now just beginning after over a year of tariffs and threats to destroy China's economy. So people are being lulled into the belief that we are getting even with China, but they don't realize that we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

Sure, it if only hurts a little in the short range and provides a major benefit in the long range, fine.  But, believe it is quite possible that it will be painless in the short range and cause tremendous damage in the long range to the whole world economy and especially to our country and to China.  So, that's what I am saying.  

What benefit do you expect the tariffs will bring to us?  What will change and how? Do you think China will decide to buy as much from us as we buy from them?  Do you think they will promise not steal our intellectual property.  This kind of reaction seems to be what is expected by our Administration.  Navarro says we will ramp up tariffs until China stops committing the Seven Deadly Sins.  How do you see the tariffs curing long range problems?      

 

  • Member since
    April 2016
  • 1,447 posts
Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Thursday, October 24, 2019 6:43 PM

When the shop here is ordering replacement parts for the equipment they're careful to make sure nothing if possible is sourced from China. Here's why a few years ago the boss was given a great price for what he was told was OE specifics brake pads for our drum setups. Well they were sourced from China and still were being made with asbestos in the friction materials. You want to talk about a crap ton of bull crap whenever that was discovered. 

  • Member since
    February 2018
  • From: Flyover Country
  • 5,557 posts
Posted by York1 on Thursday, October 24, 2019 4:44 PM

Euclid
As to China, it's their country.  They get to have the laws they want.  It you want to manufacture in their country, they make the rules. 

Exactly.  Since we don't like their cheating, our country is doing what is in its power to stop American purchases from their manufacturers.  I understand you don't like that.

 

Euclid
So what do we do to prevent China from becoming number one?  Somebody has got to be number one.  There will always be a number one. 

This is not about who is number one.  This is about free trade.  When one country cheats, the exchange is no longer considered free trade.

Yes, tariffs are bad.  They cost money.  They cause economic problems.  But sometimes, it's necessary to take steps that hurt in the short range to cure long-range problems.

It's about protecting our country, our property, and our citizens' quality of life and way of life.

York1 John       

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Thursday, October 24, 2019 3:07 PM

York1
 
Euclid
Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro.  This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China.

 

In 2016, President Obama's administration instituted 266% tariffs on Chinese cold rolled steel, and Peter Navarro had nothing to do with it.  Were you upset then?

 

 
Euclid
You make it sound like they are on a quest for forceful world conquest.

 

I'm not sure that's so far-fetched.  Xi Jinping vowed to make the Chinese military the number one modern military by 2035.

 

 
Euclid
It is called competition and they are successful competitors. 

 

You call it competition.  I call it cheating.  Last year, Microsoft's former CEO Ballmer said that Chinese theft of Microsoft products cost the company $10 billion.  This was not just some Chinese citizens using unlicensed Windows.  90% of Chinese companies were using Microsoft Windows, but only 1% paid for it.  This is piracy encouraged by the government through lax and unenforced laws.  

 

Tariffs are not new.  But Navarro is. 

As to China, it's their country.  They get to have the laws they want.  It you want to manufacture in their country, they make the rules.  If you don't like it, do not go there.  So what do we do to prevent China from becoming number one?  Somebody has got to be number one.  There will always be a number one.  How can we make it so there is no number one power in the world?

  • Member since
    February 2018
  • From: Flyover Country
  • 5,557 posts
Posted by York1 on Thursday, October 24, 2019 2:36 PM

Euclid
Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro.  This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China.

In 2016, President Obama's administration instituted 266% tariffs on Chinese cold rolled steel, and Peter Navarro had nothing to do with it.  Were you upset then?

 

Euclid
You make it sound like they are on a quest for forceful world conquest.

I'm not sure that's so far-fetched.  Xi Jinping vowed to make the Chinese military the number one modern military by 2035.

 

Euclid
It is called competition and they are successful competitors. 

You call it competition.  I call it cheating.  Last year, Microsoft's former CEO Ballmer said that Chinese theft of Microsoft products cost the company $10 billion.  This was not just some Chinese citizens using unlicensed Windows.  90% of Chinese companies were using Microsoft Windows, but only 1% paid for it.  This is piracy encouraged by the government through lax and unenforced laws.  

York1 John       

  • Member since
    September 2017
  • 5,636 posts
Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, October 24, 2019 1:48 PM

Euclid

Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro.  This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China.  He is on lifetime mission to even the score with China.  He cites his "Seven Deadly Sins" of China and demands their repentance or he will destroy their economy with his weapon of import tariffs.  He lives in a fantasy land where he can destroy China's economy in order to bring utopianism to the U.S.

https://reason.com/2019/10/17/trumps-anti-china-trade-advisor-invented-a-fake-economist-to-sell-his-protectionist-trade-views/

 

He is in complete denial in believing his destruction of China can occur in a vacuum with no effect on us. 

 

Bucky: He seems to have a zealous follower of his 'theory' (or Limbaugh's derivative drivel) on here (see post above). 

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Thursday, October 24, 2019 1:48 PM

Shadow the Cats owner

Here's some economics class 101 for some people. We here in the USA have been basically handing over half a trillion dollars in hard currency to China for decades. Then throw in all the intellectual property they've stolen also. Things like cell phone tech CNC machines diesel engine technical details semiconductor technology. Yes they have stolen all of that from us. Now they're using those stolen designs to start dominating the infastructure construction and other items world wide. Someone had to put a stop to them before they literally took over all high tech support for things like 5g networking and the next generation of internet. 

 

That is not economics 101.  It sounds like paranoia 101.  When you say we are handing over money to them, you make it sound like they are robbing us at gunpoint.  We are handing over money to them to willingly buy their products.  Why is that a problem?  Not only are we doing it voluntarily, but we are also getting the value of the products they provide.  It is a transaction, not a robbery.  All we have to do is stop handing over money to them and pay more for those products to be made here.  How can it be said that we are victims of China? 

You don't know what they have stolen from us.  Where are the facts?  Everybody who owns intellectual property will tell you somebody is always trying to steal it from them.  You make it sound like they are on a quest for forceful world conquest. It is called competition and they are successful competitors. 

You say someone had to put a stop to them.  Is that what we are doing?  I have heard supporters of this lunatic trade war say that is exactly what we must do.  They say China is quickly taking over as the number one manufacturing power of the world, and therefore we must stop them before they reach that goal.  If we don't stop them before they reach that goal, it will be too late to ever stop them.  So how do we stop them?  How do you want to put an end to China?

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy