Trains.com

classic warbirds attacking trains

21686 views
440 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, August 10, 2019 8:33 PM

Oh boy!  Running engines over and over to take off power is not good.  Don't remember turbo prop engines.  Those probably deriviative of Allison 501-D13 engines depending on their date of manufacture.  Alot depends on how long TO power applied.  Can count as a cycle towards cycle limit but will bet was not counted ?

 Number counts toward hot section inspection or maybe even a replacement of a compressor or turbine disk.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, August 10, 2019 8:44 PM

The President and the Penguin 'The Rear Gunner'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKdLbEQ6Dv8

Rail mounted targets in training.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, August 10, 2019 9:19 PM

Don't mess with The Penguin!

He's got twin fifties and he knows how to use 'em!

Don't mess with The Joker either!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PzPE69_mqo  

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Toronto, Canada
  • 2,560 posts
Posted by 54light15 on Sunday, August 11, 2019 9:22 AM

Great stuff! If you've never seen it, watch "Detour" with Tom Neal and Ann Savage- it's the worst and best film noir ever made. Watch it and you'll see why.  

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0037638/ 

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, August 11, 2019 2:37 PM

That Nieuport under the Arc protest was nothing compared to what this guy did!

Although fifty years apart, gotta love 'em both!

One with a Nieuport in Paris, one with a Hawker Hunter jet in London!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gavx54dKYvI  

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, August 11, 2019 3:15 PM

Flintlock76
That Nieuport under the Arc protest was nothing compared to what this guy did!

Although fifty years apart, gotta love 'em both!

One with a Nieuport in Paris, one with a Hawker Hunter jet in London!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gavx54dKYvI  

50 years later the protest would not have been able to be covered up.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, August 11, 2019 5:14 PM

Well, maybe the 1919 fly-through might have been the target of an attempted cover-up as well, but those crazy French fighter jocks had two  movie cameras set up to catch it!  They wanted  it recorded for posterity!

The Parisians and the French people in general probably got a kick out of it too!

Too bad there weren't cell phone cameras around in 1968 London, any video of that RAF pilot's wackyness would have been priceless!  

  • Member since
    April 2002
  • From: Northern Florida
  • 1,429 posts
Posted by SALfan on Sunday, August 11, 2019 8:28 PM

To respond to some earlier posts in this thread, IIRC the P-39 was designed as a ground-attack plane, so it should have been pretty good at the job.  My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I believe some "redneck engineering" by the 5th Air Force (with McArthur in the Southwest Pacific campaign) mounted four 20-mm cannons in the nose of a B-25 for the purpose of sinking ships.  These were not successful, because the recoil from the cannons shook the planes to pieces.  Can't imagine how the fire from 4 cannons would have torn thru an un-armored merchant ship.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,020 posts
Posted by tree68 on Sunday, August 11, 2019 8:44 PM

SALfan
IIRC the P-39 was designed as a ground-attack plane, so it should have been pretty good at the job.

It rather shares that characteristic with the A10 "Wart Hog," essentially an airplane built around a weapon (the Gatling gun, in that case).   An A10 would be hopelessly outclassed by just about every fighter in the air today, but it's the cat's meow for ground support.

The A10, with it's depleted uranium projectiles, certainly would have wreaked havoc on German trains in WWII.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Sunday, August 11, 2019 8:58 PM

SALfan
These were not successful, because the recoil from the cannons shook the planes to pieces.

I believe you'll find it wasn't the vibration that was the problem, as I recall it was the 'retro-rocket' effect of the recoil.  The four cannon together slowed the plane abruptly to below safe flying speed with even a reasonably sustained burst, with the plane having to be essentially in a steep dive to get the cannon to bear on the target.  Subsequent recovery, unassisted by any practical means of recovering airspeed combined with much heavier wing loading, would be difficult and dangerous at best; more troublesome if you were expected to execute evasive maneuvers at the same time...

You can reduce some of the effect of 'felt' recoil using recoilless-rifle techniques like active hydraulic mounts or muzzle brakes.  Note that one of the points of the 20mm shell is that the projectiles rely on explosives, not momentum, for most of their damage, so the actual mass being ejected during a nominal period of firing can be relatively low.

The bad news is that the sequential cannon shells can be fuzed to detonate at different delays, as the armorer prepares the chain.  So instead of just shredding the surface as AP machine-gun bullets do, you can get penetration to what may be several depths, through the presumed structure of the ship (and its crew and cargo, particularly including that of troop transports).  Even a comparatively short firing can produce more severe damage than the same 'throw weight' in one large explosive projectile hit like the shell from a larger-bore ship's gun.

We might gainfully compare the net recoil effect of the 37mm cannon in the Airacobra with the 4 20mm on the proposed design.

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 2,631 posts
Posted by Backshop on Sunday, August 11, 2019 9:13 PM

4 20mm cannon wouldn't bother a B25.  The much smaller P38 Lightning had 1-20mm and 4-.50cal MG in the nose and did fine. It was the 75mm cannon that did the damage.

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Toronto, Canada
  • 2,560 posts
Posted by 54light15 on Monday, August 12, 2019 8:46 AM

I have seen pictures of a B-25 with one cannon mounted in the nose, offset to one side. Was that a 75MM? I imagine it would damage the aircraft if used. 

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, August 12, 2019 8:57 AM

54light15

I have seen pictures of a B-25 with one cannon mounted in the nose, offset to one side. Was that a 75MM? I imagine it would damage the aircraft if used. 

 

Yes it was.  The problem with the 75mm was it shook the airplane tremendously and filled the cockpit with smoke, at least according to an "Air Classics" magazine article I read years ago.

"Redneck engineering" indeed!  Show what happens when you turn a lot of American kids loose with some high-powered machinery, "back-yard mechanic" skills and a "go for it" attitude!  

  • Member since
    July 2008
  • 2,325 posts
Posted by rdamon on Monday, August 12, 2019 9:13 AM

Which led to the A-10 and the GAU-8 ;)

Moderator
  • Member since
    April 2013
  • 187 posts
Posted by Steve Sweeney on Monday, August 12, 2019 9:28 AM

The thread is diverging from rail again. Please keep on track.

Steve Sweeney
Digital Editor, Hobby 

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • 1,881 posts
Posted by Leo_Ames on Monday, August 12, 2019 10:12 AM

A sad picture of a B-26 just moments before spiraling out of control, after taking flak damage while on a bombing run on a railroad bridge in Marzabotto Italy (I'm not fudging the target in disregard/defiance of the above post; It's really what the photo caption states.). 

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, August 12, 2019 10:15 AM

"Lest we forget..."


I was going to make a funny comment with a post a few minutes ago, but I can't after seeing that B-26.  I'll have to wait for a while.  

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • 1,881 posts
Posted by Leo_Ames on Monday, August 12, 2019 10:17 AM

Railyard at Marburg Germany being bombed by the 9th Air Force on February 22nd, 1945.

 

Captured rail shipment of Me-109 fighters.

 

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: S.E. South Dakota
  • 13,569 posts
Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, August 12, 2019 5:01 PM

Steve Sweeney

Curious. I don't see mention of the B-26 Marauders. (Did I miss it?) I thought they were involved in fighter-bomber operations including strafing runs and close air support?

 

I've read that leading up to D-Day and somewhat after, B-26's were used a lot in taking out railroad bridges from medium altitudes over France and Germany. I was surprised to read that construction battalions could rebuild those bridges just about as fast as the allies could take them out.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

  • Member since
    September 2017
  • 5,636 posts
Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, August 12, 2019 5:56 PM

If the Bf 109g, a pretty small fighter,  could handle 20mm  cannon mounted underwing successfully ,  I think it indicates that cannons are not problematic. 

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, August 12, 2019 6:02 PM

Military engineers of any country, especially the Germany of the time, were pretty good at figuring out what the important infrastructure targets were likely to be and where the appropriate repair materials should be staged, which is the best way to expedite repairs.

But the thing is, after the invasion both the American and British air forces were too good  at destroying rail infrastructure.  After the Normandy breakout the pusuit of the Germans was hampered by all the destroyed rail lines and bridges, which obviously the Germans didn't need at that point.  Much needed supplies, especially fuels, just couldn't be moved fast enough.  

Oh well, hindsight's "20-20."  No-one expected the Germans in France to collapse as fast as they did. 

Any way, Mr. Steve asked about armored trains earlier.  Here's a good 12 minute history of armored trains in WW1.  VERY interesting!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5Jl5KdG-Tc    

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, August 12, 2019 6:07 PM

charlie hebdo

If the Bf 109g, a pretty small fighter,  could handle 20mm  cannon mounted underwing successfully ,  I think it indicates that cannons are not problematic. 

 

Those Bf109's were small all right, in more ways than one.  I saw a History Channel show a few years back where a present-day RAF pilot was "Trying one on for size" and had to squeeze himself into the cockpit of the restored Messerschmitt.

"My God!" he said, "Were they all bloody midgets?"  He was 5'10'', and could barely get in the thing!

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: S.E. South Dakota
  • 13,569 posts
Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, August 12, 2019 9:03 PM

Steve Sweeney

The thread is diverging from rail again. Please keep on track.

 

...on track... LaughYes

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Monday, August 12, 2019 10:44 PM

Steve Sweeney
The thread is diverging from rail again. Please keep on track.

Just like railroad Control Points - threads also change routes.  If you don't want to go there, get off the train.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:09 AM

BaltACD
Just like railroad Control Points - threads also change routes.

All he's saying is that, just like at railroad Control Points, any route you change to will still be 'on the trains'.

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • 1,881 posts
Posted by Leo_Ames on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 3:10 PM

There's no description of note, but this steam engine appears to have been the victim of a strafing run in the Korean War.

 

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: S.E. South Dakota
  • 13,569 posts
Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 9:20 PM

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, on the other side of the world the Japanese were building the Burma Railway while the Allies were unbuilding it for them from the air. I can find where the Americans used B-24 liberators but I haven't found what the British used. Would that have maybe been old Wellingtons and such shipped to the quieter corners of the war after becoming obsolete back in Europe?

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • 1,881 posts
Posted by Leo_Ames on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:05 AM

I believe the RAF also used Liberators for those missions against railways in Burma. There was some sort of shared command between us and Great Britain with our heavy bombers over there, with a name like the USAF's Strategic Air Command during the Cold War years. 

The RAF wasn't too thrilled with the B-24 and avoided sending them up against German fighters over continental Europe on strategic bombing missions. They instead handled maritime patrol duties over the Atlantic and Mediterranean and served as bombers in less vulnerable theaters like Burma. 

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: MP CF161.6 NS's New Castle District in NE Indiana
  • 2,148 posts
Posted by rrnut282 on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 12:53 PM

Here is another video that is a compilation of gun camera footage from WW2.  A lot of the movies are fuzzy and slightly out of focus, but you can make out many trains as targets.  Some strafe the train until they find the gas or ammo car.  On the steam locomotives, you can see a marked change in the plume out of the stack when they get hit.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ3et1SunPU

Mike (2-8-2)

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy