Paul_D_North_Jr OP: Send a copy of your letter to Amtrak's Legal Dept. That too may not get any action or even a response, but it may make it 'discoverable' in any legal action based on an allegation that Amtrak is at fault in one of those areas ("You are required to produce copies of any documents relating to Amtrak's training and compliance with operating rules . . . "). That may take years - many good things do - but there are some examples of the havoc that wreaks when the facts finally come out (ask the Catholic Church about the priest abuse cases when they came to light . . . ). - PDN.
OP: Send a copy of your letter to Amtrak's Legal Dept. That too may not get any action or even a response, but it may make it 'discoverable' in any legal action based on an allegation that Amtrak is at fault in one of those areas ("You are required to produce copies of any documents relating to Amtrak's training and compliance with operating rules . . . "). That may take years - many good things do - but there are some examples of the havoc that wreaks when the facts finally come out (ask the Catholic Church about the priest abuse cases when they came to light . . . ).
- PDN.
And send it registered mail with a return receipt attached, so you know they've got it.
That way Amtrak's legal department can't lie or stonewall, "Well, we never got any letter..."
Flintlock76 And send it registered mail with a return receipt attached, so you know they've got it. That way Amtrak's legal department can't lie or stonewall, "Well, we never got any letter..."
Many years back, an industry outside the railroad industry was renting the old M&StL diesel shop buildings at Marshalltown IA. GE or EMD, I forget which because both have used the buildings at times over the years, was looking for a place to do warranty work on their line of engines. The railroad wanted to break the lease to the outside firm and then lease them to whichever builder needed the location back then.
The outside firm didn't want to leave, wanted to stay for the entire term. The railroad tried many ways to induce them to leave. Even to the point that the railroad said it hadn't been receiving the monthly lease payments due. The firm was able to produce the registered receipts that the railroad had indeed been receiving the payments, even if they hadn't been cashing them.
Eventually, they were able to get them to leave and lease the property to the builder. I'm guessing a monetary inducement was eventually offered that was too tempting to pass up.
Jeff
243129 Flintlock76 And I too have experienced the "wise heads" coming down from "on high" up in corporate where they listen, nod their heads gravely and understandingly, and then leave and don't do a damn thing. I call it Amtrak arrogance. Flintlock76 Look man, you tried your best. They won't listen. Forget it. Take up a hobby, fishing, golf, gardening, maybe even model railroading. Enjoy what time God lets you have left on this earth. Thank you for the advice and wishes. This is not the single occupier of my time, I do have hobbies, I have toured the entire USA, Canada and two forays in to Mexico on my motorcycle. I have two boats, a 31' Tiara with which I cruise Long Island Sound and a 22' Pursuit with which I fish the Florida Keys, I skied until the age of 68 and this October I am headed to the Copper Canyon by auto as I sold my motorcycle. For those of you railfans who are not aware of this venue I understand that the train ride is spectacular. https://www.coppercanyon.com/index.php/train So, yes I have plenty to keep me busy and have been enjoying the retirement that my railroad career has afforded me but I will continue to speak out against Amtrak's dangerous hiring and training procedures.
Flintlock76 And I too have experienced the "wise heads" coming down from "on high" up in corporate where they listen, nod their heads gravely and understandingly, and then leave and don't do a damn thing.
I call it Amtrak arrogance.
Flintlock76 Look man, you tried your best. They won't listen. Forget it. Take up a hobby, fishing, golf, gardening, maybe even model railroading. Enjoy what time God lets you have left on this earth.
Thank you for the advice and wishes. This is not the single occupier of my time, I do have hobbies, I have toured the entire USA, Canada and two forays in to Mexico on my motorcycle. I have two boats, a 31' Tiara with which I cruise Long Island Sound and a 22' Pursuit with which I fish the Florida Keys, I skied until the age of 68 and this October I am headed to the Copper Canyon by auto as I sold my motorcycle.
For those of you railfans who are not aware of this venue I understand that the train ride is spectacular.
https://www.coppercanyon.com/index.php/train
So, yes I have plenty to keep me busy and have been enjoying the retirement that my railroad career has afforded me but I will continue to speak out against Amtrak's dangerous hiring and training procedures.
There are three entities that concerns about Amtrak safety can be presented to:
The general public
Congress
Amtrak
I don’t see any chance of successfully making the case to Amtrak, no matter how many letters are sent to them and who receives them. They have created the poor safety culture, and they would be the last to recognize or admit that.
I think there is a fair chance of getting understanding, response, and even action from members of Congress. I would expect it to require a very large amount of correspondence. It may result in a successful outcome, but that could take many forms. I think it would require more research, writing, and presentation. Developing an organization of people to do this work and presenting a larger voice would be helpful. I think your message will resonate well if it can be made understandable and convincing. I was somewhat surprised to see how positive the reception was on Fred Frailey’s blog.
Just based on that, I think it would get a fairly decent reception with Congress, and especially with the general public. Amtrak ridership may be only a tiny fraction of the population, but it is still a very large number of people, and I think they would all be very interested in this problem and a proposed solution.
I don’t think your idea is an exercise in futility. It may be a huge task, and it may at times seem like nothing is getting done, but it is not futile. And I don’t think it requires winning friends and influencing people or back slapping. I think you just need persistence in presenting a very clear and convincing message. You have the background and the credibility to make your point. The idea will really just sell itself once it is assimilated by people. But it can take a lot of effort to get people to listen. That is marketing. It needs a stated message and visual aids. You could make a diagram of how Amtrak trains new hires and how you would change that. Explain how you would rate job candidates for acumen as it applies to train service, and why acumen matters. Everybody wants to know the specifics of what you want to change with Amtrak culture.
Another way to approach this is to write a book. A book makes enough space to completely sort out the argument in the clearest way possible. A book could reach nearly all of the Amtrak ridership. They would be a uniquely motivated target audience with their personal allegiance to Amtrak. They would be instantly sympathetic with the causes of the safety problem embedded in the Amtrak business culture. The book would tell them to contact Congress, and they would do so. So Congress would get the message primarily from the public, and then they too would read the book. Even many people in Amtrak would probably read the book.
But this cannot be a self-published book. That won’t go anywhere in terms of sales unless mountains of money are spent in promoting it. Develop the rough manuscript and take it to a publisher. I think there would be a lot of interest on their part if the book made your case to a publisher. If they decided to publish it, they would provide a lot of help to make it happen as a commercial success, including all of the marketing and advertising. I believe that a campaign that produces the book and also goes to Congress with direct contact would produce real results in making the changes that are necessary.
Euclid: You make a great deal of sense to me with this posting!
daveklepper Euclid: You make a great deal of sense to me with this posting!
Yes, I agree until you got to the book idea. But contacting key congressional folks (House transportation committee, chair) with a succinct presentation, not of just the need, but enough specificity about your plans to be convincing.
Thanks Dave. I think that taking it to congress is fine if it gets the job done. A lof of foot dragging in Congress could drag out the project for years with no result at all. I agree that more specificity is needed, along with the developlent of a commanding presentation, and many variations and detail elaborations of that presentation. If you took that to its fullest measure, it would fill a book. So why not make it a book for informing everyone including the public and Congress.
I have found that if you present a neighborhood issue to your City Council, on your own, they feel no fear and they patronize you with no intention of considering your proposal. So what you do is take the message to your neighbors, and then all of them will go down to the Council meeting with you, and the Council will listen because they feel fear.
So while Congress has the authority to fix the problem with Amtrak, the public has the ability to push them into action if need be. And the riders of Amtrak are the natural constituency to absorb the message and take it to their representatives.
EuclidI think there is a fair chance of getting understanding, response, and even action from members of Congress.
Thank you for the advice and suggestions. However if Congress failed to enact adequate legislation after Sandy Hook, where the victims were young children, and the other mass shootings how can I hope for them to enact adequate legislation to protect the public from Amtrak's dangerous hiring and training procedures?
It seems futile.
243129 Euclid I think there is a fair chance of getting understanding, response, and even action from members of Congress. Thank you for the advice and suggestions. However if Congress failed to enact adequate legislation after Sandy Hook, where the victims were young children, and the other mass shootings how can I hope for them to enact adequate legislation to protect the public from Amtrak's dangerous hiring and training procedures? It seems futile.
Euclid I think there is a fair chance of getting understanding, response, and even action from members of Congress.
Sadly, that is true. 60% of the current Senate comes from states representing only 36% of our people. Mostly Great Plains, mountains and some of the south. I share your pessimism and sadness.
With enacting legislation due to Sandy Hook, there is great controversy in that the legislation might disarm people who want to own guns in order to protect themselves from gun violence. Those people naturally suspect that gun violence is being used as an agenda by people who simply want to cancel the right to own guns. So, even though Sandy Hook is a powerful motivator of change, it naturally invokes a strong pushback to that change.
With improving the safety of Amtrak, there is no strong justification for pushback other than simple resistance to changing the system. The only thing holding back a transformation in Amtrak safety is Amtrak management culture and the fact that nobody understands the safety problem that Amtrak culture has created.
You understand it and have even been determined enough to bring it to the attention of Amtrak and Congress. If you continue that until Congress understands the problem, who is going to push back? The only one who will is Amtrak. They will deny the problem exists. But Amtrak’s boss; Congress and the public, will demand change once you convince them that the problem exists. They will easily overcome the resistance within Amtrak.
243129 However if Congress failed to enact adequate legislation after Sandy Hook, where the victims were young children, and the other mass shootings how can I hope for them to enact adequate legislation to protect the public from Amtrak's dangerous hiring and training procedures?
Bring lots of money for "campaign contributions."
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Gentlemen, I do NOT want to turn this into a gun-control discussion, but if you're going to bring up Sandyhook PLEASE remember where the real blame lies.
Nancy Lanza, the mother of the shooter, who purchased the guns LEGALLY after going through ALL the background checks the state of Connecticutt required, and then stupidly brought them into a home she shared with a mentally disturbed son. Just as you don't smoke around gasolene common sense tells you it's worse than foolish to bring weapons into a home with a resident who's "Not quite right in the head!"
Stupid woman! Well, she paid for it with her life, and the lives of too many others. I'm not surprised at all the father of Adam Lanza and Adam's brother walked away from the situation in that house, Mom either could not, or would not, admit to herself just how dangerous her son could be.
And that's all I'm going to say on that subject. it's way
Flintlock76And that's all I'm going to say on that subject. it's way OFF TOPIC
Then why say anyting about it? It was only mentioned in a passing reference as an analogy to getting Congress to take action on Amtrak safety.
This letter was sent THREE times via registered mail return receipt requested. After the third time it was ignored I rescinded my offer of confidentiality.
file:///E:/Amtrak%20%232/Letter%20to%20Boardman%20.pdf
Why would Congress want any ideas on how to improve Amtrak? A good many of them want to shut it down.
Now, if you were to send a letter detailing how to get rid of Amtrak, I'm sure you'd get a warm reception.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Here is some coverage of the actual Amtrak engineer training facility by a Philadelphia-area station:
This appears to have been cut from what may be a much longer and better-detailed interview and coverage -- including some interviews with trainees and graduates, and details of what things Amtrak looks for in its engineer candidates.
From 1:30 on is particularly ironic if, as the comments indicate, this story was prepared just before the accident with 188...
I would be interested in obtaining Mr. Reaves' resume.
243129I would be interested in obtaining Mr. Reaves' resume.
Which should be available via a FOIA, should it not?
I'd be still more interested in learning Mr. Reaves' criteria for assessing candidates prior to training, and his priorities for training improvement.
Overmod 243129 I would be interested in obtaining Mr. Reaves' resume. Which should be available via a FOIA, should it not?
243129 I would be interested in obtaining Mr. Reaves' resume.
OvermodI'd be still more interested in learning Mr. Reaves' criteria for assessing candidates prior to training
Would not his resume indicate his qualification to assess candidates for positions in the operating department?
Overmod 243129 I would be interested in obtaining Mr. Reaves' resume. Which should be available via a FOIA, should it not? I'd be still more interested in learning Mr. Reaves' criteria for assessing candidates prior to training, and his priorities for training improvement.
In view of the Amtrak's issues has had since this video was originally shot - I would be interested in learning what Mr. Reaves current position, if any, is with Amtrak.
The video references operating on the Interstate system in a motor vehicle for comparative values. Interstates, for the most part, are adequately marked for successful operation by all motor vehicle operators - consistant with the turning and braking abilities of the vehicles using the system without the need for prior experience in operating over any particular route.
It has been my contention for years, that railroad rights of way are not adequately marked. Operation over railroad territories REQUIRES prior intimate knowledge of the route for successful operation, as that knowledge is required because of the extended braking distances as well as slack control for the trains being operated.
If the rights of way were marked in a manner to WARN of upcoming characteristics along the right of way it would be possible for a engineer qualified on 'train operation' to be able to operate successfully on virtually any territory.
I don't know how detailed the 'approaching territory' screens are on PTC equipped locomotives are on the territories where PTC is in effect - but those screens are a step in identifying to the engineer what is ahead in regard to speed restrictions and signal indications as well as the end of authority when operating in dark territory.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
243129 This letter was sent THREE times via registered mail return receipt requested. After the third time it was ignored I rescinded my offer of confidentiality. file:///E:/Amtrak%20%232/Letter%20to%20Boardman%20.pdf
Send the same letter, but under an alias, as to them, anything bearing your name is an automatic circular file candidate. See if you get a response.
PS--Reword it so it sounds different and give specific examples, not just generalities. E.g.--"Back in NH/PC days, an engineer had to undergo XXX training days. That has been cut to only XX. Also, there used to be two men in the cab and now there's only one. There's no one to keep the engineer concentrating".
243129Would not his resume indicate his qualification to assess candidates for positions in the operating department?
Yes. I am more concerned with what he has actually set up, and what he is doing, now that he is running the outfit. Resume is like the CV of the teacher; I want to see the syllabus and the recommended reading.
BaltACDThe video references operating on the Interstate system in a motor vehicle for comparative values. Interstates, for the most part, are adequately marked for successful operation by all motor vehicle operators - consistant with the turning and braking abilities of the vehicles using the system without the need for prior experience in operating over any particular route.
To be honest, what Reaves is actually talking about is 'knowing the road' by the landmarks, precisely in the sense that an engineer needs to be qualified on territory. He's not extending the metaphor to following or braking distance or other vehicle-handling skills. I'd be reasonably certain there is extensive teaching on the differences in high-speed braking just in the discussion of locomotive controls.
The chief issue is in the hiring, not the training, I think ... the issue for Joe and others being that the training has to be extended to develop the 'right stuff' no matter what walk of life or personal predilections the 'acceptable' candidates come from.
Overmod BaltACD The video references operating on the Interstate system in a motor vehicle for comparative values. Interstates, for the most part, are adequately marked for successful operation by all motor vehicle operators - consistant with the turning and braking abilities of the vehicles using the system without the need for prior experience in operating over any particular route. To be honest, what Reaves is actually talking about is 'knowing the road' by the landmarks, precisely in the sense that an engineer needs to be qualified on territory. He's not extending the metaphor to following or braking distance or other vehicle-handling skills. I'd be reasonably certain there is extensive teaching on the differences in high-speed braking just in the discussion of locomotive controls. The chief issue is in the hiring, not the training, I think ... the issue for Joe and others being that the training has to be extended to develop the 'right stuff' no matter what walk of life or personal predilections the 'acceptable' candidates come from.
BaltACD The video references operating on the Interstate system in a motor vehicle for comparative values. Interstates, for the most part, are adequately marked for successful operation by all motor vehicle operators - consistant with the turning and braking abilities of the vehicles using the system without the need for prior experience in operating over any particular route.
I fully understand what Reaves is talking about. Landmarks can be most anything that is PERMANENTLY VISIBLE under all conditions. On the Interstate system 'landmarks' (signage) are placed where operators can SEE them in time to take the proper actions with regard to the vehicle they are driving.
In the railroad perspective just because engineers are using the red house next to the Route 57 road crossing as a braking marker that is three miles in advance of the 30 MPH speed restriction for a curve - if he has a smaller better braking train, he might delay his application point to the bridge over the railroad 3/4 of a mile beyond the red house. In most cases - such markers are subjective to the individual engineer and his 'train handling abilities'. Handling the throttle, in the diesel era, does not make the engineer - the ability to handle the brakes does.
On today's Class 1 freight railroads, the primary braking system being used in the 21st Century is Dynamic Braking, with a lesser emphasis on the various techniques in utilizing the air brakes. Streatch braking is rarely used today, although it MAY be authorized under specific circumstances and at specific locations. Amtrak locomotives, I believe, have 'blended braking' a combination of both air and dynamic brakes.
Yes - the engineers mind has to be miles ahead of his train's actual location in order to plan his manipuluation of the tools under his control for the safe, timely and efficient opeation of the train over the territory. Railroad signage as it currently exists does not assist in 'identifying the challenges' ahead.
Do today's computer users know how to unjam the stuck keys of a typewriter. Just because us old pharts learned to do it back in the foggy mists of time doesn't mean that it should be required today. The physical characteristics that goverened the operations of trains half a century ago, don't need to be the only markings for operating trains over that same territory today.
BaltACDIn the railroad perspective just because engineers are using the red house next to the Route 57 road crossing
Stop me if you've heard this.
Transit/commuter engineer was known for exactly hitting the mark every. single. time. Leave a stool on the platform and the vestibule would be lined up with it with no input from the conductor.
Until one day, ol' George competely blew away a stop. Missed it by yards.
When asked what happened to cause such an error, he replied, "Someone cut down my tree..."
tree68 BaltACD In the railroad perspective just because engineers are using the red house next to the Route 57 road crossing Stop me if you've heard this. Transit/commuter engineer was known for exactly hitting the mark every. single. time. Leave a stool on the platform and the vestibule would be lined up with it with no input from the conductor. Until one day, ol' George competely blew away a stop. Missed it by yards. When asked what happened to cause such an error, he replied, "Someone cut down my tree..."
BaltACD In the railroad perspective just because engineers are using the red house next to the Route 57 road crossing
Heard the same story in a racing enviornment - the girl in the red tank top moved !!!!
BaltACDHeard the same story in a racing environment - the girl in the red tank top moved !!!!
Was it in Jim Clark's biography they described how people would walk the course and put little whitewashed stones to mark the braking points and apices... and how other people would quietly go out and move the stones a few critical hundred feet or so the night before the race?
Larry, that was more believable than the one about the engineer who said, "Somebody cut my sunflower!"
A true story. (I may have told this before) I lived for 8 years at a place where US 521 made a right angle turn--complete with warning signs in advance and a flashing yellowligtht at the center of the turn. If northbound traffic did not turn, it would come up an alley that was between our house and the house next door. There was a high privet hedge lining our side of the alley; one day, one of my brothers trimmed the hedge back considerably. That night, a northbound Greyhound driver started up the alley before he realized that he was at the turning point.
Johnny
Overmod BaltACD Heard the same story in a racing environment - the girl in the red tank top moved !!!! Was it in Jim Clark's biography they described how people would walk the course and put little whitewashed stones to mark the braking points and apices... and how other people would quietly go out and move the stones a few critical hundred feet or so the night before the race?
BaltACD Heard the same story in a racing environment - the girl in the red tank top moved !!!!
By chance, sadly, I was at the F2 race at Hockenheim the day Jim Clark was killed. We lived in Germany then, and my dad took my brother and me to the race. It was devastating; after Dan Gurney, Clark was our biggest hero. Clark was the world’s greatest driver then.
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