DeggestyI wonder how many people in Congress are aware that Amtrak even exists, much less have any idea of the problems that have been presented on this thread.
I think it's lots. And I think that many, perhaps most, of the things Anderson has done are specifically intended to make people complain to Congress to fix things ... or to wipe Congresspeople's eye with the practical effects of their cute little mandate from 2015 about getting to :profitability."
Whether or not a grassroots effort to compel Amtrak to stop Mickey-Mousing gains momentum, it will take additional very carefully directed effort to swing attention onto the correct aspects of safe operation -- in part because too much emphasis now will, happily or unhappily depending on 'where participants sit' influencing 'where they stand,' become embroiled in those other agendas.
Euclid They are the problem, not the ones to fix the problem.
JOHN PRIVARA Euclid They are the problem, not the ones to fix the problem. Not entirely. The actual problem is duplicity. Amtrak cannot make a profit, period. Yet, it's required to make a profit. Whenever you got conflicting "true" realities, the ONLY solution is to create #cowpoop#. #cowpoop# is what allows people, organizations, and societies to happily exist in simultaneously conflicting realities. Eventually, though, one of the realities wins (usually the real reality). But, depending on the quality of the #cowpoop# it can take generations for the other reality(s) to collapse. And, the collapse of a reality supported by #cowpoop# causes much MUCH MUCH anger (as we all witnessed with the SP trying to explain the reality of passenger trains in the 1950’s). Duplicity is just another name for #cowpoop#, as is self-delusion.
I never looked at it that way.
One common theme in postings by the OP about Amtrak incidents is that Amtrak's hiring and training practices are bad, and that the supervisory people are unqualified. I would like to know what he thinks is bad about them and what changes he would make.
(I'm kind of wondering about the unqualifed supervision, but that's almost a universal feeling among those who do the actual work in any industry. Yes, there are a lot that either know what's what or can learn, but there's a lot that never quite grasp how things work.)
I don't know if the OP is right or wrong, for I don't know what Amtrak's policies are. I know we hire people that don't seem to be cut out for railroad work and training is woefully inadequate. Some make it, some don't and sometimes it's surprising on who turns out to be a good rail.
Jeff
Oh this is one of those threads where I really want to comment but I know if I do comment I'll get lambasted by at least two people so I am going to refrain on this thread.
CMStPnP Oh this is one of those threads where I really want to comment but I know if I do comment I'll get lambasted by at least two people so I am going to refrain on this thread.
Johnny
OP: Send a copy of your letter to Amtrak's Legal Dept. That too may not get any action or even a response, but it may make it 'discoverable' in any legal action based on an allegation that Amtrak is at fault in one of those areas ("You are required to produce copies of any documents relating to Amtrak's training and compliance with operating rules . . . "). That may take years - many good things do - but there are some examples of the havoc that wreaks when the facts finally come out (ask the Catholic Church about the priest abuse cases when they came to light . . . ).
- PDN.
EuclidAbout 7 or 8 posts up from yours here, I explained what I would do if I wanted to bring about this change.
This is the post on August 3rd at 10:25am. (We will also take note of what JPS1 replied at 12:35, and a couple of his and others' prior observations on Friday).
There are two examples in railroad history that reinforce some of the points you're making. One, of course, is Lorenzo Coffin and his tireless campaign for air brakes. The other is C.F.Adams writing his book about railroad wrecks. These are still useful guides for assessing methods that work vs. methods that either won't or that contain what is essentially wasted effort. In both cases, however, they represent implemented methods of 'building buzz' or at least awareness in the general, voting, population that will eventually translate into 'informed self-interest' (if not doing a right thing is too much to expect).
As noted, I don't expect public reaction against Amtrak to swell into an increasing drumbeat for reform there. There's sure to be plenty of indignation around the time of high-profile wrecks, and a great deal of enhanced sheep-like calls for thinly-disguised revenge or compensation of some kind -- we certainly saw the conspiracy acting both overtly and behind the scenes with Bostian. The question is how you get this continuously focused on the right kinds of need for change that will bring just the right pressure on Amtrak to alter its philosophy (not just the way its training is provided or implemented) and that is where the example of Mr. Coffin applies so dramatically. It is interesting to see how long, and how often, he was dismissed as a crank, until the right things combined in the right ways ... and note well precisely why he started being listened to; that kind of 'sacrifice' might well be needed here.
Although far more effort at consensus-building and directed consciousness-raising will be needed, precisely at a time when the 'message' goes so dramatically against currently-valued messages about things like acting responsibly or celebrating conformity of attitude rather than diversity of result. The public is likely to think in terms of a few additional rules, or easily enforceable law to make the guilty fall in line, rather than creating the right long-term change that makes the organization amend the fundamental problems with its training. How you work through this is decidedly non-trivial, but critically important...
Overmod Euclid About 7 or 8 posts up from yours here, I explained what I would do if I wanted to bring about this change. This is the post on August 3rd at 10:25am. (We will also take note of what JPS1 replied at 12:35, and a couple of his and others' prior observations on Friday). There are two examples in railroad history that reinforce some of the points you're making. One, of course, is Lorenzo Coffin and his tireless campaign for air brakes. The other is C.F.Adams writing his book about railroad wrecks. These are still useful guides for assessing methods that work vs. methods that either won't or that contain what is essentially wasted effort. In both cases, however, they represent implemented methods of 'building buzz' or at least awareness in the general, voting, population that will eventually translate into 'informed self-interest' (if not doing a right thing is too much to expect). As noted, I don't expect public reaction against Amtrak to swell into an increasing drumbeat for reform there. There's sure to be plenty of indignation around the time of high-profile wrecks, and a great deal of enhanced sheep-like calls for thinly-disguised revenge or compensation of some kind -- we certainly saw the conspiracy acting both overtly and behind the scenes with Bostian. The question is how you get this continuously focused on the right kinds of need for change that will bring just the right pressure on Amtrak to alter its philosophy (not just the way its training is provided or implemented) and that is where the example of Mr. Coffin applies so dramatically. It is interesting to see how long, and how often, he was dismissed as a crank, until the right things combined in the right ways ... and note well precisely why he started being listened to; that kind of 'sacrifice' might well be needed here. Although far more effort at consensus-building and directed consciousness-raising will be needed, precisely at a time when the 'message' goes so dramatically against currently-valued messages about things like acting responsibly or celebrating conformity of attitude rather than diversity of result. The public is likely to think in terms of a few additional rules, or easily enforceable law to make the guilty fall in line, rather than creating the right long-term change that makes the organization amend the fundamental problems with its training. How you work through this is decidedly non-trivial, but critically important...
Euclid About 7 or 8 posts up from yours here, I explained what I would do if I wanted to bring about this change.
Euclid....getting Amtrak to alter its philosophy would be like getting efficiency in government.
Perhaps this can clarify and answer some of the questions that have been asked.
http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2015/08/11/the-making-of-engineers-and-conductors.aspx
80 'looks' and no comments since 11:00 A.M.
Check all the threads and you'll see there's always a lot more views than replies.
I guess some folks are just shy about commenting. Anyway, you should find all those views gratifying. Shows people are interested.
Flintlock76 Check all the threads and you'll see there's always a lot more views than replies. I guess some folks are just shy about commenting. Anyway, you should find all those views gratifying. Shows people are interested.
I do.
Flintlock76Check all the threads and you'll see there's always a lot more views than replies.
Flintlock76 I guess some folks are just shy about commenting. Anyway, you should find all those views gratifying. Shows people are interested.
And sometimes the threads that have gone unread have done so because I have virtually no interest in the subject matter. The threads on the upgrading of the Transcon, f'rinstance. There's nothing wrong with the threads, they just don't interest me. It's clear that the folks who are posting on them are interested and involved in the topic.
I suspect there are others in the same boat.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
cotton belt, for some reason this site is not allowing me to respond to PM's. I can read them but cannot respond.
243129cotton belt, for some reason this site is not allowing me to respond to PM's. I can read them but cannot respond.
Check 'SETTINGS' in your profile - you may have 'Conversations' turned off.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDCheck 'SETTINGS' in your profile - you may have 'Conversations' turned off.
You wouldn't show the ability to send or receive PMs at all if that were so.
This is a known bug in certain browsers (Firefox perhaps the most notorious). Even though the function works correctly, the browser display 'forgets' to display the text entry point and cursor in the little reply window and it's impossible to answer. I am reduced to running the Opera browser on an obsolescent Macintosh to work around this infuriating problem. I believe there are other browsers that don't have this problem; Google Chrome may be one but I prefer to have as little to do with it as possible.
Note that in most cases your computer will happily run multiple browsers and you can use one just to keep the PM window open for any messages that come in or need to go out.
Overmod BaltACD Check 'SETTINGS' in your profile - you may have 'Conversations' turned off. You wouldn't show the ability to send or receive PMs at all if that were so. This is a known bug in certain browsers (Firefox perhaps the most notorious). Even though the function works correctly, the browser display 'forgets' to display the text entry point and cursor in the little reply window and it's impossible to answer. I am reduced to running the Opera browser on an obsolescent Macintosh to work around this infuriating problem. I believe there are other browsers that don't have this problem; Google Chrome may be one but I prefer to have as little to do with it as possible. Note that in most cases your computer will happily run multiple browsers and you can use one just to keep the PM window open for any messages that come in or need to go out.
BaltACD Check 'SETTINGS' in your profile - you may have 'Conversations' turned off.
I use Firefox on my PC and have no trouble with PMs.
The mobile version of the Kalmbach software does not allow me to reply to PMs, I am told that I "am not authorized to view this conversation".
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70DudeI use Firefox on my PC and have no trouble with PMs.
Only some versions have the 'issue'. (I don't remember if it's 61 or 62 that starts breaking on Mac). I do notice that Quantum 68.0.1 64-bit now has a text-entry window that appears to take input.
You get around this by selecting 'view full site' which gives you a teeny tiny but functional place to view and respond. The problem then becomes that you can't respond to posts with long URLs or pictures in them, because the lateral position of the 'reply' button moves so far to the right you can't select it even with the device in 'landscape'... workaround there is to scroll up or down to a post with an accessible reply button and proceed from there. Having taken good notes on paper.
I find it incredibly useful to have a wireless keyboard linked to a mobile device for replies; in fact, I found a supplier of iPhone-compatible wired keyboards that actually make it possible for normal humans to cut and paste text in iOS.
Overmod The mobile version of the Kalmbach software does not allow me to reply to PMs, I am told that I "am not authorized to view this conversation". You get around this by selecting 'view full site' which gives you a teeny tiny but functional place to view and respond. The problem then becomes that you can't respond to posts with long URLs or pictures in them, because the lateral position of the 'reply' button moves so far to the right you can't select it even with the device in 'landscape'... workaround there is to scroll up or down to a post with an accessible reply button and proceed from there. Having taken good notes on paper. I find it incredibly useful to have a wireless keyboard linked to a mobile device for replies; in fact, I found a supplier of iPhone-compatible wired keyboards that actually make it possible for normal humans to cut and paste text in iOS.
I just reload the page using the "view desktop site" feature, as Chrome calls it. I've actually gotten pretty good at typing using the tiny screen keyboard, but a larger plug-in one would be quite useful.
I have never owned a Apple product of any sort, and have no desire to.
If writing a book will help with someone paying attention......doubt it.....
The recent online Trains newsletter advertises a book that seems to be a good descriptor of the problems that exist.
Railroad Collisions, by George Swimmer, CPA. endmrw0806191115
243129 Perhaps this can clarify and answer some of the questions that have been asked. http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2015/08/11/the-making-of-engineers-and-conductors.aspx
My attempt to help mitigate/eliminate Amtrak's human error disasters is 'out there' as is their refusal to avail themselves of the experience of their veteran employees.
As stated previously, 'Amtrak is an accident waiting to happen... again' and when it does I will publicize, again, Amtrak's refusal to heed the warnings that I and my fellow veteran employees have sounded. Perhaps one day someone somewhere will see the wisdom of Amtrak availing themselves of the experience of their veteran employees.
Maybe get a few of your fellow vetern employees together and talk to a few local congressmen. Try to get the union involved, also.
Backshop Maybe get a few of your fellow vetern employees together and talk to a few local congressmen. Try to get the union involved, also.
I have appealed to various politicians to no avail. I will however 'trot out' my warning missives after the next disaster occurs. I can only hope someone sees and understands them and takes action.
243129I have appealed to various politicians to no avail. I will however 'trot out' my warning missives after the next disaster occurs. I can only hope someone sees and understands them and takes action.
You must remember that there are politicians who would love to see Amtrak die. If a disaster is what it will take, they aren't about to take action to prevent that disaster.
They aren't going to fix something they don't want to exist in the first place.
tree68You must remember that there are politicians who would love to see Amtrak die.
This is not about Amtrak dying it is about people dying.
tree68If a disaster is what it will take, they aren't about to take action to prevent that disaster.
So you are of the opinion that politicians would sacrifice human lives to achieve their agenda which is to 'kill' Amtrak???
Have I interpreted your statement correctly?
243129 tree68 You must remember that there are politicians who would love to see Amtrak die. This is not about Amtrak dying it is about people dying. tree68 If a disaster is what it will take, they aren't about to take action to prevent that disaster. So you are of the opinion that politicians would sacrifice human lives to achieve their agenda which is to 'kill' Amtrak??? Have I interpreted your statement correctly?
tree68 You must remember that there are politicians who would love to see Amtrak die.
tree68 If a disaster is what it will take, they aren't about to take action to prevent that disaster.
Politicians will sacriface anything - we are seeing it in every news cycle. Thoughts and prayers!
Politicians start unnecessary wars, what's a lousy train accident to them?
Backshop Politicians start unnecessary wars, what's a lousy train accident to them?
You're not kidding. Look at all the young people, the best young people we have, sacrificed over the years for the State Department's regime change experiments.
I don't agree with too many Democrats on anything, but Tulsi Gabbard's spot on with that one! No more! Enough!
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