Amtrak management, but there is more than one.
Sounds more like what is called the classic alienated worker or by some, the Lumpenproletariat or by still others, an embittered nihilist. Or is the latter a tautology?
243129 Amtrak mangement is and has been arrogant.
Amtrak mangement is and has been arrogant.
Everybody in management is arrogant. The only way to get to be in management is to have the confidence to ASK to be part of management. And confidence is just arrogance viewed from the opposite side of the coin.
Nobody in management wants "help from the work force". Never have, never will. If a person wants to manage, they step up (if they've got the confidence) and they start making decisions. But they have to do it FROM the management side. In return, they get to be ridiculed by the "work force", screwed by their superiors, and IF they are really smart-n-savvy, someday, they'll get to do the screwing and have the senior management benefits (membership in the top 5% of society).
ALL over the world, at all times in history, the confident smart-n-savvy people run things, make the decisions, and really don't care what the "work force" (aka peasants) thinks about things.
Disclaimer: life-long peasant who ridiculed management.
BaltACD JOHN PRIVARA zugmann Of course they would have to want to be promoted. Can't promote 20+ year RR veterans if they won't apply. AND, (generally) the older-ya-get the more cynical ya-get. In my experience, the younger people are the ones who desire the promotions because they haven't burnt out yet. They still enjoy life and their jobs. It's the young people who don't mind working the long hours, think of themselves as part of "a team", believe the corporate #cowpoop#, and generally move the organization ahead despite the sociopaths running it and the know-it-all old-farts making everybody else’s lives miserable. That is why wars are fought by soldiers in the 18-30 year range - the 'I'll show you' of youth instead of the 'You are F'n crazy' of experience.
JOHN PRIVARA zugmann Of course they would have to want to be promoted. Can't promote 20+ year RR veterans if they won't apply. AND, (generally) the older-ya-get the more cynical ya-get. In my experience, the younger people are the ones who desire the promotions because they haven't burnt out yet. They still enjoy life and their jobs. It's the young people who don't mind working the long hours, think of themselves as part of "a team", believe the corporate #cowpoop#, and generally move the organization ahead despite the sociopaths running it and the know-it-all old-farts making everybody else’s lives miserable.
zugmann Of course they would have to want to be promoted. Can't promote 20+ year RR veterans if they won't apply.
That is why wars are fought by soldiers in the 18-30 year range - the 'I'll show you' of youth instead of the 'You are F'n crazy' of experience.
After seeing WW2 up-close-and-personal John Ford said it best...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCCCwkcBOOw
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Amtrak mangement is and has been arrogant. They were clueless when they took over operations on the NEC and they are still clueless. They eschewed help when it was offered by their inherited veteran workforce choosing instead to continue with their hit and miss trial and error style of management which has over the years resulted in many, too many, lives lost.
Flintlock76I can't speak of the railroad world from first-hand experience, never having been in it, but sometimes in the civilian corporate world if you're too good at what you do you'll never get promoted either. Why? The unimaginative ones over you don't know how they'll replace you!
Of course they would have to want to be promoted. Can't promote 20+ year RR veterans if they won't apply.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
CSSHEGEWISCHSince the OP is complaining to high heaven about the length of time involved in training a new engineer for Amtrak,
It seems you find my concern annoying.
CSSHEGEWISCHI'm curious to find out if he ever looked into the length of the training sessions for new engineers for the Class 1 roads or the various regional operators.
My concern is with Amtrak and the safety of the traveling public. I had worked there and was privy to the operation. I have no knowledge of other railroads' operations.
Since the OP is complaining to high heaven about the length of time involved in training a new engineer for Amtrak, I'm curious to find out if he ever looked into the length of the training sessions for new engineers for the Class 1 roads or the various regional operators.
It's 12 weeks, except during wartime emergencies (WW2, Korea, Vietnam) when at certain points it was shortened to eight weeks. The Corps wasn't happy about the eight week program, but the men had to be cycled through as fast as possible.
Anyway, 12 weeks only makes the basic Marine. After that guys going infantry go on to advanced infantry training, others go on to training in their specific fields, "Military Occupational Specialties" or "MOS's" for short.
243129Make what you will of this. "Eleven weeks. That's how long it takes to go from average Joe to Amtrak engineer." The transformation takes place at Amtrak's High-Speed Rail Training Facility, housed inside an unassuming beige building along a dead-end road just west of Wilmington, Delaware's Riverfront section. It's here where hopeful engineers from around the country come to take an eleven-week classroom course. Some are former freight train engineers. Some are what Amtrak calls "off the street." "Which means they could be hired from any work environment, from Wal Mart to the military," said Stephen Reaves, Amtrak's manager of locomotive engineer training." https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Amtrak-Engineer-Training-School-Derailment-Wilmington-Philadelphia-304048241.html
"Eleven weeks. That's how long it takes to go from average Joe to Amtrak engineer."
The transformation takes place at Amtrak's High-Speed Rail Training Facility, housed inside an unassuming beige building along a dead-end road just west of Wilmington, Delaware's Riverfront section.
It's here where hopeful engineers from around the country come to take an eleven-week classroom course. Some are former freight train engineers. Some are what Amtrak calls "off the street."
"Which means they could be hired from any work environment, from Wal Mart to the military," said Stephen Reaves, Amtrak's manager of locomotive engineer training."
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Amtrak-Engineer-Training-School-Derailment-Wilmington-Philadelphia-304048241.html
Isn't that about the same length of time it takes to make a Marine?
BaltACD 243129 Mr. Reaves was an engineer for five years before becoming a training instructor. Not much time on the right side to be training others in my estimation. When you get 20 - 30 - 40 years on the right side of the cab - you are too old to promote!
243129 Mr. Reaves was an engineer for five years before becoming a training instructor. Not much time on the right side to be training others in my estimation.
When you get 20 - 30 - 40 years on the right side of the cab - you are too old to promote!
I can't speak of the railroad world from first-hand experience, never having been in it, but sometimes in the civilian corporate world if you're too good at what you do you'll never get promoted either. Why? The unimaginative ones over you don't know how they'll replace you!
A real-life "Dilbert" strip situation!
Not like the military, where the policy is "Up, or out!" and has been since the Eisenhower administration. And even that has been controversial over the years, although not a major controversy.
Make what you will of this.
243129Mr. Reaves was an engineer for five years before becoming a training instructor. Not much time on the right side to be training others in my estimation.
tree68Stop me if you've heard this. Transit/commuter engineer was known for exactly hitting the mark every. single. time. Leave a stool on the platform and the vestibule would be lined up with it with no input from the conductor. Until one day, ol' George competely blew away a stop. Missed it by yards. When asked what happened to cause such an error, he replied, "Someone cut down my tree..."
Lithonia OperatorIt seems to me that a smart guy who had been an engineer for five years could be a well-qualified instructor.
How does the saying go? Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.
Lithonia OperatorI have to say, that was my impression also. But it was not clear to me if he was an actual instructor, or the head of the instructors. I could see where an educational tech guy could be in charge of veteran engineers who are the hands-on teachers, and that combination could work okay.
I did some research and found that he was an engineer for five years and then locomotive engineer instructor, Assistant General Road Foreman then System General Road Foreman(!). I would consider that a meteoric rise without much experience.
243129 I suspect that Mr. Reaves does not have a railroad background.
I suspect that Mr. Reaves does not have a railroad background.
I have to say, that was my impression also. But it was not clear to me if he was an actual instructor, or the head of the instructors. I could see where an educational tech guy could be in charge of veteran engineers who are the hands-on teachers, and that combination could work okay.
Edit: I see you edited your post. It seems to me that a smart guy who had been an engineer for five years could be a well-qualified instructor.
Mr. Reaves was an engineer for five years before becoming a training instructor. Not much time on the right side to be training others in my estimation.
Overmod BaltACD Heard the same story in a racing environment - the girl in the red tank top moved !!!! Was it in Jim Clark's biography they described how people would walk the course and put little whitewashed stones to mark the braking points and apices... and how other people would quietly go out and move the stones a few critical hundred feet or so the night before the race?
BaltACD Heard the same story in a racing environment - the girl in the red tank top moved !!!!
Was it in Jim Clark's biography they described how people would walk the course and put little whitewashed stones to mark the braking points and apices... and how other people would quietly go out and move the stones a few critical hundred feet or so the night before the race?
By chance, sadly, I was at the F2 race at Hockenheim the day Jim Clark was killed. We lived in Germany then, and my dad took my brother and me to the race. It was devastating; after Dan Gurney, Clark was our biggest hero. Clark was the world’s greatest driver then.
Larry, that was more believable than the one about the engineer who said, "Somebody cut my sunflower!"
A true story. (I may have told this before) I lived for 8 years at a place where US 521 made a right angle turn--complete with warning signs in advance and a flashing yellowligtht at the center of the turn. If northbound traffic did not turn, it would come up an alley that was between our house and the house next door. There was a high privet hedge lining our side of the alley; one day, one of my brothers trimmed the hedge back considerably. That night, a northbound Greyhound driver started up the alley before he realized that he was at the turning point.
Johnny
BaltACDHeard the same story in a racing environment - the girl in the red tank top moved !!!!
tree68 BaltACD In the railroad perspective just because engineers are using the red house next to the Route 57 road crossing Stop me if you've heard this. Transit/commuter engineer was known for exactly hitting the mark every. single. time. Leave a stool on the platform and the vestibule would be lined up with it with no input from the conductor. Until one day, ol' George competely blew away a stop. Missed it by yards. When asked what happened to cause such an error, he replied, "Someone cut down my tree..."
BaltACD In the railroad perspective just because engineers are using the red house next to the Route 57 road crossing
Stop me if you've heard this.
Transit/commuter engineer was known for exactly hitting the mark every. single. time. Leave a stool on the platform and the vestibule would be lined up with it with no input from the conductor.
Until one day, ol' George competely blew away a stop. Missed it by yards.
When asked what happened to cause such an error, he replied, "Someone cut down my tree..."
Heard the same story in a racing enviornment - the girl in the red tank top moved !!!!
BaltACDIn the railroad perspective just because engineers are using the red house next to the Route 57 road crossing
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Overmod BaltACD The video references operating on the Interstate system in a motor vehicle for comparative values. Interstates, for the most part, are adequately marked for successful operation by all motor vehicle operators - consistant with the turning and braking abilities of the vehicles using the system without the need for prior experience in operating over any particular route. To be honest, what Reaves is actually talking about is 'knowing the road' by the landmarks, precisely in the sense that an engineer needs to be qualified on territory. He's not extending the metaphor to following or braking distance or other vehicle-handling skills. I'd be reasonably certain there is extensive teaching on the differences in high-speed braking just in the discussion of locomotive controls. The chief issue is in the hiring, not the training, I think ... the issue for Joe and others being that the training has to be extended to develop the 'right stuff' no matter what walk of life or personal predilections the 'acceptable' candidates come from.
BaltACD The video references operating on the Interstate system in a motor vehicle for comparative values. Interstates, for the most part, are adequately marked for successful operation by all motor vehicle operators - consistant with the turning and braking abilities of the vehicles using the system without the need for prior experience in operating over any particular route.
To be honest, what Reaves is actually talking about is 'knowing the road' by the landmarks, precisely in the sense that an engineer needs to be qualified on territory. He's not extending the metaphor to following or braking distance or other vehicle-handling skills. I'd be reasonably certain there is extensive teaching on the differences in high-speed braking just in the discussion of locomotive controls.
The chief issue is in the hiring, not the training, I think ... the issue for Joe and others being that the training has to be extended to develop the 'right stuff' no matter what walk of life or personal predilections the 'acceptable' candidates come from.
I fully understand what Reaves is talking about. Landmarks can be most anything that is PERMANENTLY VISIBLE under all conditions. On the Interstate system 'landmarks' (signage) are placed where operators can SEE them in time to take the proper actions with regard to the vehicle they are driving.
In the railroad perspective just because engineers are using the red house next to the Route 57 road crossing as a braking marker that is three miles in advance of the 30 MPH speed restriction for a curve - if he has a smaller better braking train, he might delay his application point to the bridge over the railroad 3/4 of a mile beyond the red house. In most cases - such markers are subjective to the individual engineer and his 'train handling abilities'. Handling the throttle, in the diesel era, does not make the engineer - the ability to handle the brakes does.
On today's Class 1 freight railroads, the primary braking system being used in the 21st Century is Dynamic Braking, with a lesser emphasis on the various techniques in utilizing the air brakes. Streatch braking is rarely used today, although it MAY be authorized under specific circumstances and at specific locations. Amtrak locomotives, I believe, have 'blended braking' a combination of both air and dynamic brakes.
Yes - the engineers mind has to be miles ahead of his train's actual location in order to plan his manipuluation of the tools under his control for the safe, timely and efficient opeation of the train over the territory. Railroad signage as it currently exists does not assist in 'identifying the challenges' ahead.
Do today's computer users know how to unjam the stuck keys of a typewriter. Just because us old pharts learned to do it back in the foggy mists of time doesn't mean that it should be required today. The physical characteristics that goverened the operations of trains half a century ago, don't need to be the only markings for operating trains over that same territory today.
BaltACDThe video references operating on the Interstate system in a motor vehicle for comparative values. Interstates, for the most part, are adequately marked for successful operation by all motor vehicle operators - consistant with the turning and braking abilities of the vehicles using the system without the need for prior experience in operating over any particular route.
243129Would not his resume indicate his qualification to assess candidates for positions in the operating department?
Yes. I am more concerned with what he has actually set up, and what he is doing, now that he is running the outfit. Resume is like the CV of the teacher; I want to see the syllabus and the recommended reading.
PS--Reword it so it sounds different and give specific examples, not just generalities. E.g.--"Back in NH/PC days, an engineer had to undergo XXX training days. That has been cut to only XX. Also, there used to be two men in the cab and now there's only one. There's no one to keep the engineer concentrating".
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