Lithonia OperatorThat’s wild! I’m confused, though. When the whole cut moved 20 feet back and forth, it moved the engine also? I mean, you’re coupled up, right?
I’m confused, though. When the whole cut moved 20 feet back and forth, it moved the engine also? I mean, you’re coupled up, right?
Yep - independent brakes locked on the locomotive - it was just along for the slosh ride!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
That’s wild!
Years ago, when doing switchmen's on the job training (OJT) in Beverly (Cedar Rapids) Yard, the foreman showed me this trick that worked there. The yard is down hill, the west end being the top end. Most switching is done from the west end. When handling a cut with loaded tank cars, you have the engineer bring the cut ahead slowly (pin ahead). Stop them where you want to make the cut. The liquid would slosh forward, then backward. When it sloshed backwards it would bring in the slack enough to allow lifting the cut lever and open the knuckle. Then when it sloshed forward again, it started the car(s) forward and they would drift into the intended yard track. They would pick up a little momentum, but not enough to couple at to high a speed, even if they travelled the entire length of the track.
I only was able to use this trick there while training. I never switched in Beverly Yard after finishing my switchmen's OJT.
Jeff
Was working with a crew in Cleveland that was switching at one of the chemical plants that was close to Clark Ave. Yard. The work consisted of coupling up a track of 8 tank cars - in various states from fully loaded to empty - our job was to switch out 2 empties and replace them with loads in their spots. The cars had all be separated and had to be coupled up to handle the track. The car furthest from the engine and the 3rd car from the engine were empties to be pulled and our train from Clark Ave. had loaded cars to take thelr place. Making the 1st coupling was not a big deal, a little slosh that died down in seconds, coupling the head two cars to the 3rd car - with both cars having slosh, took about 45 seconds to settle down, the move was made to set that 3rd car out and get its replacement coupled up - With the 2 part loads and full load the slosh attenuated in about 30 sesond as the full load acted against the slosh in addition to the engine - coupling up the rest of the track to get to the 'bottom' car the slosh from each coupling took progressively longer as more cars had slosh - in some cases the slosh would move the entire coupled track 20 or so feet in one direction and then the slosh would move the entire movement 18 or so feet in the other direction until the slosh attenuated itself - and then on to the next coupling and more slosh.
Looking at the work to be done on paper - you would, in your mind, assign 15 to 20 minutes to get everything accomplished. Dealing with the slosh factor made the job closer to a hour or more, as every coupling involved waiting for slosh to attenuate itself before moving on to the next step of the job.
Our normal tanks are 5500 gallon capacity we haul a couple chemicals that max the loads out between 2000 and 2500 gallons each they are that heavy a gallon and when that crap starts rocking in the barrel of an unbaffled tank it will throw it around. We tried to set up our local college simulatior to train a couple driver's dow it feels when it's moving on them. The computers were trying to throw the driver's out of the seats in the Sim. So they dumped the programming.
Shadow the Cats owner...surging.
Got stuck driving one of our fire tankers to a barn fire once while it was half full. It was a former 2,500 gallon airfield refueling truck, and was baffled somewhat, but it was no fun.
We'd used it to provide water at a rock festival situated in a farmer's field (not Woodstock) and we couldn't get it topped off before responding.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
My boss put in a new standard policy this year to help with heavy liquid surging. Anything that is over 20 pounds a gallon and yes we do haul some things that are in tanker trailers we require a 20 PSI blanket of either CO2 or Nitrogen over the top of it after the trailer is loaded to help slow surging and prevent rollovers. It has helped so far and my kids aka drivers that haul the products are saying they are seeing about a 70% reduction in surging. Our saftey valves pop at 40 PSI for overpressure so if the loads get hot in the summer we still have some give.
zardozI have run trains with large number of locomotives, and for me, the trains were quite difficult to run. With 1600+ tons (8 units) concentrated in only 600 feet, there is a strong tendency for all that weight to almost take on a life of their own regarding train handling.
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An engineering degree is no guarantee of competence as a yardmaster. An inability to learn as you go does guarantee incompetence.
cx500 But, but, but.... The yardmaster may have had a university degree so he "obviously" should be able to manage anything and was more qualified for the position than anyone who knew railroading realities!
But, but, but.... The yardmaster may have had a university degree so he "obviously" should be able to manage anything and was more qualified for the position than anyone who knew railroading realities!
Problem was his university degree wasn't in engineering. And he didn't know his railroad.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Trains has done a great service to the industry in publishing the article on train makup. Its one that goes beyond the otherwise great photo stories (I read every word). Even though I moved up in my careeer, I recall my last assignment when i wasnt told directly, but I sensed they were saying "the guy has a college degree, he'll figure it out." There was no team work for 2 or 3 days of near hell. No one got hurt in some of those cases - but none of my college courses - even the really great ones including The Railroad Engineering textbook could beat TEAMWORK you get from interacting with the folks who have the experience with the situation at hand.
the best ym's work with the men, talk over options, work for a common goal, bad ym's throw everybody under the bus, trying to climb the ranks to cash in on the elusive bonus. no matter how much electronic technolgy, computers ect, still have to have common sence and consideration for your fellow workers.
d&henginnerto sd70dude, this is the honest truth, a good yardmaster is worth his weight in gold, and a poor yardmaster wears out men, tie up yards and usually blame everyone except for themself, usually being a ym is the first step to a trainmaster, prety simple, bad ym becomes a terible tm, the mentality is don't give the men a break, keep them sweating, just in case some company brass pops in or now is watching on a vidio feed, the truth is the guy sitting in the break room, might just be their because he used his head, not his back. i know from experience
Yardmasters (and for that matter Train Dispatchers) are jobs that require vision. Those that can only see until quitting time are disasters.
Extra Yardmasters just starting on the job, being called to fill a vacancy off the extra list and then going home after 8 hours think they know the job backwards and forwards and continue with that belief UNTIL they have to 'relieve' themselve ie. they have to double and work 16 hours on the job. By the 14th hour they are cussing up one side and down the other the idiot that performed the job for the first 8 hours. Working a majority of the clock gives a person VISION into the entire operation that is hidden by only working 8 hours. The jobs require planning for things you know will happen but you are not on duty to see those things happening.
Train Dispatchers cannot learn from 'relieving' themselves as the HOS limits their on duty time to 9 hours.
to sd70dude, this is the honest truth, a good yardmaster is worth his weight in gold, and a poor yardmaster wears out men, tie up yards and usually blame everyone except for themself, usually being a ym is the first step to a trainmaster, prety simple, bad ym becomes a terible tm, the mentality is don't give the men a break, keep them sweating, just in case some company brass pops in or now is watching on a vidio feed, the truth is the guy sitting in the break room, might just be their because he used his head, not his back. i know from experience
BaltACD(Daddy was the President of the Company).
Have those too, someone related to a politician, related to a flag officer, or survived a tough battle in Combat that the Army wants to retain. All have some teflon shielding.
Oh yeah my boss had one of those CYA moments years and I am talking 25 years ago moments. A mechanic had deadlined one of the acid tanks for having a leaking safety valve it leaked even closed and let product by it. Well the mechanic had placed it OOS until a new valve and body where installed. The foreman of the shop at the time overrode him and ordered the trailer back into service stating it will not leak product past the butterfly valve. Mechanic refused to sign off he was also the only certified tank trailer saftey mechanic in the fleet if he said no then that trailer was NOT supposed to go anywhere even our Safety manager could not override his decisions. Foreman on his own declared in a RO that he signed that trailer was fine put trailer back into service then took trailer to reload. Driver picks up the trailer sees a leak at the butterfly valve pulls it around to the shop. The mechanic that had ordered it deadlined sees that it was the one that foreman put back into service over his objections and sees leak getting worse including regular steel bolts instead of stainless bolts being eaten by the acid. Mechanic orders driver to pull out of shop before the valve assemblies give out. 10 feet out of the door both the safety valve and the butterfly valve failed. 5K gallons of pure SO4 acid hits the gravel parking lot made of crushed limestone. To say the boss got his new fuel tank holes he wanted was an understatement by the time the cleanup was done. The now ex foreman was fired on the spot according to my boss. The mechanic was promoted to foreman.
CMStPnPI'll tell you what though, because of the $$$ in damages and the fact they had to call in Navy Divers to recover the tracked vehicle under water, the incident went all the way up to a multi-star General. All the Officers in the Chain of Command got their butts chewed.......so they were looking for blood after the accident but they could not pass the blame based on the eye witnesses to what I said prior to being ordered. Eventually my Section Leader was court martialled partially based on this incident as well as habitually lying to his Superior. So they eventually got the scapegoat they were looking for and he was the idiot that gave the order without listening to me or investigating. So justice was eventually done later down the road, just not right away. I am sure NS will nail eventually if not right away whomever they eventually find to have given the order to proceed regardless of the train crews protests.
I am sure NS will nail eventually if not right away whomever they eventually find to have given the order to proceed regardless of the train crews protests.
A fellow Trainmaster ordered a crew to drop cars toward a Seagrams Distillery track when switching the plant - against the crew's objections. They complied with the order and the dropped car ran through the Blue Flag that was protecting a number of tank cars that were hooked up to line to receive and/or discharge product, breaking all the connections and creating a HAZMAT spill situation. Trainmaster then had the crew charged for the Blue Flag violation.
Before the investigation was actually conducted (the craft's requested and received a number of continuances) the Trainmaster was transferred from his position in the sophisticated location of his birth to a outpost in the Coal Fields of West Virginia. (Daddy was the President of the Company).
^^^ No surprise to me as railroads operate a lot like the Military. Thats why they attract so many Veterans as employees. Yes you can refuse an "unlawful" or "unsafe" order but you better have decent proof or your going to get court martialled or be sent to jail. In a lot of cases your left to just salute and do it knowing in the end what will happen.
That scene from the movie STRIPES where the officer says "the Army taught you how to fire that gun, NOW FIRE THAT GUN". People laugh at that in the theaters but I saw that scene similarly repeated at least 3 times in my 3 years on Active Duty.
I had it happen to me even. $950,000.00 in damages (taxpayer money) was the result, they attempted to blame on me after the fact (meh....Officers) but key to my performance was I was given an order to perform the tasks and my verbal misgivings were noted but swept aside. I almost drown and was hauled away in another form of Amtrack (spelling correct).
So after the fact, they could not blame the accident on me as I raised the issues prior. However, had I refused the order, I would have been in serious legal trouble under the UCMJ. As I could not directly prove it was unsafe or a unlawful order. Had no choice but to execute the order or face court martial. My peers saw it the same way and supported me afterwards.
I'll tell you what though, because of the $$$ in damages and the fact they had to call in Navy Divers to recover the tracked vehicle under water, the incident went all the way up to a multi-star General. All the Officers in the Chain of Command got their butts chewed.......so they were looking for blood after the accident but they could not pass the blame based on the eye witnesses to what I said prior to being ordered. Eventually my Section Leader was court martialled partially based on this incident as well as habitually lying to his Superior. So they eventually got the scapegoat they were looking for and he was the idiot that gave the order without listening to me or investigating. So justice was eventually done later down the road, just not right away.
jeffhergert BaltACD Euclid JPS1 Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place ...were told to run it as is. Who in Altoona would have ignored the crew's warnings and told them to go as is? I was at the Curve last weekend. Why would the crew not have taken the safest course and refused to handle the train? Clearly, they knew the train would derail. "When in doubt, always take the safest course." Managment - "Take the train or I am taking you out of service - NOW!" OK Boss we'll take YOUR train and what happens happens. Failure to follow instructions/being insubordinate. That's kind of a go-to phrase in cases like this. It's an automatic dismissal for us. For awhile, some place out west was tacking that onto any rules violation. It upgraded any possible discipline from something minor or a few days off to outright termination. From what I heard, it didn't last too long before they stopped doing it. I think someone may have realized they stood to lose in arbitration and could end up owing a lot of back pay. Jeff
BaltACD Euclid JPS1 Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place ...were told to run it as is. Who in Altoona would have ignored the crew's warnings and told them to go as is? I was at the Curve last weekend. Why would the crew not have taken the safest course and refused to handle the train? Clearly, they knew the train would derail. "When in doubt, always take the safest course." Managment - "Take the train or I am taking you out of service - NOW!" OK Boss we'll take YOUR train and what happens happens.
Euclid JPS1 Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place ...were told to run it as is. Who in Altoona would have ignored the crew's warnings and told them to go as is? I was at the Curve last weekend. Why would the crew not have taken the safest course and refused to handle the train? Clearly, they knew the train would derail. "When in doubt, always take the safest course."
JPS1 Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place ...were told to run it as is. Who in Altoona would have ignored the crew's warnings and told them to go as is? I was at the Curve last weekend.
Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place ...were told to run it as is.
Who in Altoona would have ignored the crew's warnings and told them to go as is?
I was at the Curve last weekend.
Why would the crew not have taken the safest course and refused to handle the train? Clearly, they knew the train would derail. "When in doubt, always take the safest course."
Managment - "Take the train or I am taking you out of service - NOW!" OK Boss we'll take YOUR train and what happens happens.
Failure to follow instructions/being insubordinate. That's kind of a go-to phrase in cases like this. It's an automatic dismissal for us. For awhile, some place out west was tacking that onto any rules violation. It upgraded any possible discipline from something minor or a few days off to outright termination. From what I heard, it didn't last too long before they stopped doing it. I think someone may have realized they stood to lose in arbitration and could end up owing a lot of back pay.
The realities of working on the railroad - not the glorified FOAMER's understanding of working on the railroad. Especially when your carrier no longer abides by the S word.
The Northern Pacific did not have any special train makeup restrictions. I am always reminded of this: An eastbound freight would pickup about 10 to 12 empty auto racks at Dilworth, MN (just east of Fargo, ND). They would be on the headend into Northtown. The yardmaster would have the train yard on an empty track and double the balance to the east end of another empty tracks. The head twenty or so cars, including the empty auto racks, would pull east to clear the east lead and then shove the remaining cars through two or three switches rather fast. I could hear the drawbars and see said drawbars creaking as the balance of the train was shoved eastward. I always worried about derailments, then none happened.
Ed Burns
Retired NP, Etc. Clerk from Northtown.
JPS1How do you know what the Altoona crew was told? And by whom?
The youtube railstream chat had it all figured out 3 seconds after it happened.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place to were told to run it as is.
How do you know what the Altoona crew was told? And by whom?
EuclidWhy would the crew not have taken the safest course and refused to handle the train? Clearly, they knew the train would derail. "When in doubt, always take the safest course."
It was more a matter of opinion than certainty, and even if it was informed opinion vs ignorant opinion, the boss's opinion is the one that matters for those that want to keep their job (as Balt indicated). As it happened, the train crew was proven correct, with a relatively harmless although expensive result.
oltmannd3 SD70ACes in run 8 at 10 mph make about 375,000# TE. I'm surprised this train didn't get knuckle, first.
2 SD70aces and 1 SD70M-2.
oltmannd Euclid JPS1 Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place ...were told to run it as is. Who in Altoona would have ignored the crew's warnings and told them to go as is? I was at the Curve last weekend. Why would the crew not have taken the safest course and refused to handle the train? Clearly, they knew the train would derail. "When in doubt, always take the safest course." The crew couldn't know for sure. The rules for the hill should be spell out in the ETT.
The crew couldn't know for sure. The rules for the hill should be spell out in the ETT.
It makes no difference. They predicted the outcome, so they knew the choice. Not running the train was safer than running it.
Shadow the Cats owner Well the NS yardmaster in Allentown sure as heck forgot that you can't put empty centerbeams in front of the loads of a train going around Horseshoe curve. That moron complying with PSR mandates put 5 empty centerbeams right behind the power of a westbound manifest train headed over Horseshoe curve. The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place to were told to run it as is. They stringlined the thing all over the curve took out 2 of the 3 tracks when the train derailed all over the freaking place. Trying to climb a hill with over 8K tons trailing empties with sharp curves the joys of PSR for the crews. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhdxlqAT2uE&feature=share
Well the NS yardmaster in Allentown sure as heck forgot that you can't put empty centerbeams in front of the loads of a train going around Horseshoe curve. That moron complying with PSR mandates put 5 empty centerbeams right behind the power of a westbound manifest train headed over Horseshoe curve. The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place to were told to run it as is. They stringlined the thing all over the curve took out 2 of the 3 tracks when the train derailed all over the freaking place. Trying to climb a hill with over 8K tons trailing empties with sharp curves the joys of PSR for the crews. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhdxlqAT2uE&feature=share
3 SD70ACes in run 8 at 10 mph make about 375,000# TE. I'm surprised this train didn't get knuckle, first.
You can get in big trouble in a hurry running trains outside of the "norm" if you don't understand the physics...
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