The article in the July 2019 issue of Trains has much discussion regarding the location of loads/empties combined with consideration of cushioned/friction drawbars. What was not mentioned was the effect of having large numbers of locomotives on the head end (as shown in the photo on page 36), regardless of any middle or end of train power.
I have run trains with large number of locomotives, and for me, the trains were quite difficult to run. With 1600+ tons (8 units) concentrated in only 600 feet, there is a strong tendency for all that weight to almost take on a life of their own regarding train handling.
A similar problem existed back when the CNW was sending 25-car blocks of ore jennies on the head end of manifest trains (usually ITPRA). The braking characteristics of the ore cars was vastly different from 'regular' freight cars--they took longer to set and longer to release; each condition made train handling with those cars quite the challenge. Even the best Engineers had problems, mostly getting knuckles right behind the ore block.
What made train handling more challenging on the above-mentioned train, was that the railroad frequently put blocks of loaded center-beam lumber cars on the rear end. And of course we didn't have dynamic brakes on our power until the SD40-2's came on line, and even then it was quite rare to have two units with dynamics (two was the minimum required in my territory to be considered sufficient for up to 10K tons considering the track profile).
A few years ago, a now retired conductor was telling me of a trip he made on a 135 car coal train. They were sent the short way over the Blair subdivision, something they didn't do too much with a train that size. They had a technician riding along collecting data on the operation. He had a laptop computer and was plugging in numbers, etc. Checking how actual operation compared to what was predicted to happen.
The conductor asked him how fast they would top Arlington hill. The tech did some checking and said they should top out at about 12 mph. They did top out around 12 mph. This was with the train configured with 2 engine up front and one in DP at the end. The conductor asked him if they would've had all 3 up front, how fast would they've topped the hill. The tech did some calculations. He said they would've topped the hill at about 3 mph, but would've broken a knuckle doing it.
Depending on traffic, we do from time to time take 2x1 coal trains like that the short way. Even with the DP, you still have to be careful going over the top. You can still break a knuckle if you aren't careful.
Jeff
With all the restrictions that a Yardmaster faces in building a train, especially a multi block train it can be a maddening mental exercise.
Among the restrictions to be considered on a daily basis -
HAZMAT placementLong Car-Short Car placementTrailing tonnage behind long empty carsLocation of 30 or less consecutive empties and the number of loads that trail themHAZMAT placement in relation to a DPUPlacment of Clearance implacated carsPlacement of blocks of loaded cars within the train
and probably a dozen more restrictions I have forgotten since I retired.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Well the NS yardmaster in Allentown sure as heck forgot that you can't put empty centerbeams in front of the loads of a train going around Horseshoe curve. That moron complying with PSR mandates put 5 empty centerbeams right behind the power of a westbound manifest train headed over Horseshoe curve. The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place to were told to run it as is. They stringlined the thing all over the curve took out 2 of the 3 tracks when the train derailed all over the freaking place. Trying to climb a hill with over 8K tons trailing empties with sharp curves the joys of PSR for the crews. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhdxlqAT2uE&feature=share
Shadow the Cats ownerWell the NS yardmaster in Allentown sure as heck forgot that you can't put empty centerbeams in front of the loads of a train going around Horseshoe curve. That moron complying with PSR mandates put 5 empty centerbeams right behind the power of a westbound manifest train headed over Horseshoe curve. The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place to were told to run it as is. They stringlined the thing all over the curve took out 2 of the 3 tracks when the train derailed all over the freaking place. Trying to climb a hill with over 8K tons trailing empties with sharp curves the joys of PSR for the crews. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhdxlqAT2uE&feature=share
A situation 'flatlanders' never think of.
But, but, but.... The yardmaster may have had a university degree so he "obviously" should be able to manage anything and was more qualified for the position than anyone who knew railroading realities!
cx500But, but, but.... The yardmaster may have had a university degree so he "obviously" should be able to manage anything and was more qualified for the position than anyone who knew railroading realities!
Or he may have been a 'old head' that new the right way to make up the train but had his authority overruled by Terminal Supervision that was following some dictum of NS's version of the PSR operating plan.
Yardmasters in that area are from the T&E ranks.
Although lots of RRers have university degrees. Me being one of them. So, yeah...
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
BaltACDOr he may have been a 'old head' that new the right way to make up the train but had his authority overruled by Terminal Supervision that was following some dictum of NS's version of the PSR operating plan.
I don't know if it had any bearing, but pre-blocking is all the rage with PSR operating plans. And those decisions go way above the yardmasters' pay grade. They even go above local terminal supervision.
BaltACD cx500 But, but, but.... The yardmaster may have had a university degree so he "obviously" should be able to manage anything and was more qualified for the position than anyone who knew railroading realities! Or he may have been a 'old head' that new the right way to make up the train but had his authority overruled by Terminal Supervision that was following some dictum of NS's version of the PSR operating plan.
cx500 But, but, but.... The yardmaster may have had a university degree so he "obviously" should be able to manage anything and was more qualified for the position than anyone who knew railroading realities!
Our yardmasters come from the T&E ranks as well, but many become yardmasters very early on (after a short period of time as a switchman or yard foreman, these folks like a regular shift for some reason...) and have little to no experience of how the trains they build will behave out on the road.
A great yardmaster is worth many times his/her weight in gold, but a bad one can bring the railroad to a standstill in minutes and never understand what they did (some also seem to forget that they too are union members and go on a power trip when "conversing" with crews).
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
zugmann BaltACD Or he may have been a 'old head' that new the right way to make up the train but had his authority overruled by Terminal Supervision that was following some dictum of NS's version of the PSR operating plan. I don't know if it had any bearing, but pre-blocking is all the rage with PSR operating plans. And those decisions go way above the yardmasters' pay grade. They even go above local terminal supervision.
BaltACD Or he may have been a 'old head' that new the right way to make up the train but had his authority overruled by Terminal Supervision that was following some dictum of NS's version of the PSR operating plan.
All of which goes back to my post about the difficulties a Yardmaster faces in 'trying' to put together a multi-block train while adhereing to all the other train handling/car placement restrictions that apply when operating through a geographically challenging territory.
When the yardmaster (or at many yards the footboard yardmaster) train sets a train or pick up in the computer, the computer is supposed to flag placement errors. I will agree that there are some car combinations that may meet requirements, but aren't are good idea.
Case in point was a manifest coming south out of Mason City. The outbound complained about the train make up. (I don't remember if there was a warning on it or not.) They were told to take it as is. They derailed about 10 or 15 miles south of Mason City.
Flatlanders have to worry about placement, too. Because the land isn't has flat as some think.
Quoting Jeff: "Flatlanders have to worry about placement, too. Because the land isn't has flat as some think."
Well said, Jeff.
Johnny
What is a footboard yard master?
Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place ...were told to run it as is.
Who in Altoona would have ignored the crew's warnings and told them to go as is?
I was at the Curve last weekend.
JPS1 What is a footboard yard master?
JPS1 Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place ...were told to run it as is. Who in Altoona would have ignored the crew's warnings and told them to go as is? I was at the Curve last weekend.
Why would the crew not have taken the safest course and refused to handle the train? Clearly, they knew the train would derail. "When in doubt, always take the safest course."
Shadow the Cats owner Well the NS yardmaster in Allentown sure as heck forgot that you can't put empty centerbeams in front of the loads of a train going around Horseshoe curve. That moron complying with PSR mandates put 5 empty centerbeams right behind the power of a westbound manifest train headed over Horseshoe curve. The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place to were told to run it as is. They stringlined the thing all over the curve took out 2 of the 3 tracks when the train derailed all over the freaking place. Trying to climb a hill with over 8K tons trailing empties with sharp curves the joys of PSR for the crews. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhdxlqAT2uE&feature=share
3 SD70ACes in run 8 at 10 mph make about 375,000# TE. I'm surprised this train didn't get knuckle, first.
You can get in big trouble in a hurry running trains outside of the "norm" if you don't understand the physics...
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Euclid JPS1 Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place ...were told to run it as is. Who in Altoona would have ignored the crew's warnings and told them to go as is? I was at the Curve last weekend. Why would the crew not have taken the safest course and refused to handle the train? Clearly, they knew the train would derail. "When in doubt, always take the safest course."
The crew couldn't know for sure. The rules for the hill should be spell out in the ETT.
oltmannd Euclid JPS1 Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place ...were told to run it as is. Who in Altoona would have ignored the crew's warnings and told them to go as is? I was at the Curve last weekend. Why would the crew not have taken the safest course and refused to handle the train? Clearly, they knew the train would derail. "When in doubt, always take the safest course." The crew couldn't know for sure. The rules for the hill should be spell out in the ETT.
It makes no difference. They predicted the outcome, so they knew the choice. Not running the train was safer than running it.
Managment - "Take the train or I am taking you out of service - NOW!" OK Boss we'll take YOUR train and what happens happens.
oltmannd3 SD70ACes in run 8 at 10 mph make about 375,000# TE. I'm surprised this train didn't get knuckle, first.
2 SD70aces and 1 SD70M-2.
EuclidWhy would the crew not have taken the safest course and refused to handle the train? Clearly, they knew the train would derail. "When in doubt, always take the safest course."
It was more a matter of opinion than certainty, and even if it was informed opinion vs ignorant opinion, the boss's opinion is the one that matters for those that want to keep their job (as Balt indicated). As it happened, the train crew was proven correct, with a relatively harmless although expensive result.
Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place to were told to run it as is.
How do you know what the Altoona crew was told? And by whom?
JPS1How do you know what the Altoona crew was told? And by whom?
The youtube railstream chat had it all figured out 3 seconds after it happened.
The Northern Pacific did not have any special train makeup restrictions. I am always reminded of this: An eastbound freight would pickup about 10 to 12 empty auto racks at Dilworth, MN (just east of Fargo, ND). They would be on the headend into Northtown. The yardmaster would have the train yard on an empty track and double the balance to the east end of another empty tracks. The head twenty or so cars, including the empty auto racks, would pull east to clear the east lead and then shove the remaining cars through two or three switches rather fast. I could hear the drawbars and see said drawbars creaking as the balance of the train was shoved eastward. I always worried about derailments, then none happened.
Ed Burns
Retired NP, Etc. Clerk from Northtown.
BaltACD Euclid JPS1 Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place ...were told to run it as is. Who in Altoona would have ignored the crew's warnings and told them to go as is? I was at the Curve last weekend. Why would the crew not have taken the safest course and refused to handle the train? Clearly, they knew the train would derail. "When in doubt, always take the safest course." Managment - "Take the train or I am taking you out of service - NOW!" OK Boss we'll take YOUR train and what happens happens.
Failure to follow instructions/being insubordinate. That's kind of a go-to phrase in cases like this. It's an automatic dismissal for us. For awhile, some place out west was tacking that onto any rules violation. It upgraded any possible discipline from something minor or a few days off to outright termination. From what I heard, it didn't last too long before they stopped doing it. I think someone may have realized they stood to lose in arbitration and could end up owing a lot of back pay.
jeffhergert BaltACD Euclid JPS1 Shadow the Cats owner The Altoona based crew said the second we enter the curve it will derail all over the place ...were told to run it as is. Who in Altoona would have ignored the crew's warnings and told them to go as is? I was at the Curve last weekend. Why would the crew not have taken the safest course and refused to handle the train? Clearly, they knew the train would derail. "When in doubt, always take the safest course." Managment - "Take the train or I am taking you out of service - NOW!" OK Boss we'll take YOUR train and what happens happens. Failure to follow instructions/being insubordinate. That's kind of a go-to phrase in cases like this. It's an automatic dismissal for us. For awhile, some place out west was tacking that onto any rules violation. It upgraded any possible discipline from something minor or a few days off to outright termination. From what I heard, it didn't last too long before they stopped doing it. I think someone may have realized they stood to lose in arbitration and could end up owing a lot of back pay. Jeff
The realities of working on the railroad - not the glorified FOAMER's understanding of working on the railroad. Especially when your carrier no longer abides by the S word.
^^^ No surprise to me as railroads operate a lot like the Military. Thats why they attract so many Veterans as employees. Yes you can refuse an "unlawful" or "unsafe" order but you better have decent proof or your going to get court martialled or be sent to jail. In a lot of cases your left to just salute and do it knowing in the end what will happen.
That scene from the movie STRIPES where the officer says "the Army taught you how to fire that gun, NOW FIRE THAT GUN". People laugh at that in the theaters but I saw that scene similarly repeated at least 3 times in my 3 years on Active Duty.
I had it happen to me even. $950,000.00 in damages (taxpayer money) was the result, they attempted to blame on me after the fact (meh....Officers) but key to my performance was I was given an order to perform the tasks and my verbal misgivings were noted but swept aside. I almost drown and was hauled away in another form of Amtrack (spelling correct).
So after the fact, they could not blame the accident on me as I raised the issues prior. However, had I refused the order, I would have been in serious legal trouble under the UCMJ. As I could not directly prove it was unsafe or a unlawful order. Had no choice but to execute the order or face court martial. My peers saw it the same way and supported me afterwards.
I'll tell you what though, because of the $$$ in damages and the fact they had to call in Navy Divers to recover the tracked vehicle under water, the incident went all the way up to a multi-star General. All the Officers in the Chain of Command got their butts chewed.......so they were looking for blood after the accident but they could not pass the blame based on the eye witnesses to what I said prior to being ordered. Eventually my Section Leader was court martialled partially based on this incident as well as habitually lying to his Superior. So they eventually got the scapegoat they were looking for and he was the idiot that gave the order without listening to me or investigating. So justice was eventually done later down the road, just not right away.
I am sure NS will nail eventually if not right away whomever they eventually find to have given the order to proceed regardless of the train crews protests.
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