243129 charlie hebdo It's clearly there as I explained. The inability to infer answers from the context is a form of dyslexia, specifically reading comprehension. Try reading what he said in several posts. So show me exactly where CSX rules are mentioned in Balt's response to tree 68. You cannot that is why you did not.
charlie hebdo It's clearly there as I explained. The inability to infer answers from the context is a form of dyslexia, specifically reading comprehension. Try reading what he said in several posts.
So show me exactly where CSX rules are mentioned in Balt's response to tree 68. You cannot that is why you did not.
BTW. Just because you seem to have dyslexia and thus can't follow discussions and have manners typical of PC employees, giving orders to other members is out of line. Ditto with insults. Maybe that worked for you with junior crew members on Amtrak, but not on here.
243129 243129 243129 BaltACD tree68 NORAC already has a rule in place that would apply in this situation: V. Fouling Tracks Fouling a track may be necessary in the performance of railroad work. Employees must expect the movement of trains, locomotives, or other on-track equipment at any time, on any track, in either direction. Employees must maintain a vigilant lookout for and detect the approach of a train, locomotive or other railroad equipment moving in either direction. Proper safeguards for the job classification needing protection must be in place before fouling any track. Direct copy and paste from NORAC, 11th Edition. I have no reason to doubt that CSX has the same, or a very similar, rule. Amtrak uses NORAC. In addition, there are specific rules about fouling track: 140. Foul Time Foul Time may be issued only by the Dispatcher. A. Action Required Prior to Issuance Before issuing or authorizing Foul Time, the Dispatcher must determine that no trains or other on-track equipment have been authorized to occupy the track segment to be fouled. In signaled territory, the Dispatcher must ensure that Stop Signals have been displayed and blocking devices applied to controls of switches and signals leading to the affected track. When trains are to be held at a TBS where blocking devices cannot be applied, the Dispatcher must issue Form D line 13 instructing the Operator to hold trains clear of the affected track. B. Permission to Foul Permission to foul the track must include the following information: 1. Title and name of employee receiving foul time 2. Track designation 3. Track limits (between/at) 4. Time limits The receiving employee must repeat this permission and the Dispatcher must then confirm it before the Foul Time becomes effective. C. Releasing Foul Time Once protection has been provided, it must be maintained until the employee who was granted the foul time has released the foul time. The employee who was granted Foul Time must not release the Foul Time until they have ensured that all fouling activity under their authority has been cleared. The release must include the employee's title and name, and the track designation and limits being released. This information must be repeated by the Dispatcher, and confirmed by the employee releasing the foul time before blocking devices are removed. NORAC 11th Edition – February 1, 2018 To my knowledge - those rules are taught to MofW personnel, not T&E personnel. Not saying that it shouldn't be taught to T&E - just that it is not. "Just that it is not" seems to indicate that you purport to have knowledge of Amtrak rules. You do not and you have disappointed your cheerleader. You say "those rules" which are in direct reference tree 68's post which contains the NORAC 11th Edition – February 1, 2018 rules and you are now trying to say that you are referring to B&O rules??? Nice try at damage control. Show me where CSX rules are mentioned in tree 68's post that you responded to. What does me attending or having attended CSX rules have to do with anything? I had no reason to and have not purported to be knowledgeable of them as you did with NORAC.
243129 243129 BaltACD tree68 NORAC already has a rule in place that would apply in this situation: V. Fouling Tracks Fouling a track may be necessary in the performance of railroad work. Employees must expect the movement of trains, locomotives, or other on-track equipment at any time, on any track, in either direction. Employees must maintain a vigilant lookout for and detect the approach of a train, locomotive or other railroad equipment moving in either direction. Proper safeguards for the job classification needing protection must be in place before fouling any track. Direct copy and paste from NORAC, 11th Edition. I have no reason to doubt that CSX has the same, or a very similar, rule. Amtrak uses NORAC. In addition, there are specific rules about fouling track: 140. Foul Time Foul Time may be issued only by the Dispatcher. A. Action Required Prior to Issuance Before issuing or authorizing Foul Time, the Dispatcher must determine that no trains or other on-track equipment have been authorized to occupy the track segment to be fouled. In signaled territory, the Dispatcher must ensure that Stop Signals have been displayed and blocking devices applied to controls of switches and signals leading to the affected track. When trains are to be held at a TBS where blocking devices cannot be applied, the Dispatcher must issue Form D line 13 instructing the Operator to hold trains clear of the affected track. B. Permission to Foul Permission to foul the track must include the following information: 1. Title and name of employee receiving foul time 2. Track designation 3. Track limits (between/at) 4. Time limits The receiving employee must repeat this permission and the Dispatcher must then confirm it before the Foul Time becomes effective. C. Releasing Foul Time Once protection has been provided, it must be maintained until the employee who was granted the foul time has released the foul time. The employee who was granted Foul Time must not release the Foul Time until they have ensured that all fouling activity under their authority has been cleared. The release must include the employee's title and name, and the track designation and limits being released. This information must be repeated by the Dispatcher, and confirmed by the employee releasing the foul time before blocking devices are removed. NORAC 11th Edition – February 1, 2018 To my knowledge - those rules are taught to MofW personnel, not T&E personnel. Not saying that it shouldn't be taught to T&E - just that it is not. "Just that it is not" seems to indicate that you purport to have knowledge of Amtrak rules. You do not and you have disappointed your cheerleader. You say "those rules" which are in direct reference tree 68's post which contains the NORAC 11th Edition – February 1, 2018 rules and you are now trying to say that you are referring to B&O rules??? Nice try at damage control.
243129 BaltACD tree68 NORAC already has a rule in place that would apply in this situation: V. Fouling Tracks Fouling a track may be necessary in the performance of railroad work. Employees must expect the movement of trains, locomotives, or other on-track equipment at any time, on any track, in either direction. Employees must maintain a vigilant lookout for and detect the approach of a train, locomotive or other railroad equipment moving in either direction. Proper safeguards for the job classification needing protection must be in place before fouling any track. Direct copy and paste from NORAC, 11th Edition. I have no reason to doubt that CSX has the same, or a very similar, rule. Amtrak uses NORAC. In addition, there are specific rules about fouling track: 140. Foul Time Foul Time may be issued only by the Dispatcher. A. Action Required Prior to Issuance Before issuing or authorizing Foul Time, the Dispatcher must determine that no trains or other on-track equipment have been authorized to occupy the track segment to be fouled. In signaled territory, the Dispatcher must ensure that Stop Signals have been displayed and blocking devices applied to controls of switches and signals leading to the affected track. When trains are to be held at a TBS where blocking devices cannot be applied, the Dispatcher must issue Form D line 13 instructing the Operator to hold trains clear of the affected track. B. Permission to Foul Permission to foul the track must include the following information: 1. Title and name of employee receiving foul time 2. Track designation 3. Track limits (between/at) 4. Time limits The receiving employee must repeat this permission and the Dispatcher must then confirm it before the Foul Time becomes effective. C. Releasing Foul Time Once protection has been provided, it must be maintained until the employee who was granted the foul time has released the foul time. The employee who was granted Foul Time must not release the Foul Time until they have ensured that all fouling activity under their authority has been cleared. The release must include the employee's title and name, and the track designation and limits being released. This information must be repeated by the Dispatcher, and confirmed by the employee releasing the foul time before blocking devices are removed. NORAC 11th Edition – February 1, 2018 To my knowledge - those rules are taught to MofW personnel, not T&E personnel. Not saying that it shouldn't be taught to T&E - just that it is not. "Just that it is not" seems to indicate that you purport to have knowledge of Amtrak rules. You do not and you have disappointed your cheerleader.
BaltACD tree68 NORAC already has a rule in place that would apply in this situation: V. Fouling Tracks Fouling a track may be necessary in the performance of railroad work. Employees must expect the movement of trains, locomotives, or other on-track equipment at any time, on any track, in either direction. Employees must maintain a vigilant lookout for and detect the approach of a train, locomotive or other railroad equipment moving in either direction. Proper safeguards for the job classification needing protection must be in place before fouling any track. Direct copy and paste from NORAC, 11th Edition. I have no reason to doubt that CSX has the same, or a very similar, rule. Amtrak uses NORAC. In addition, there are specific rules about fouling track: 140. Foul Time Foul Time may be issued only by the Dispatcher. A. Action Required Prior to Issuance Before issuing or authorizing Foul Time, the Dispatcher must determine that no trains or other on-track equipment have been authorized to occupy the track segment to be fouled. In signaled territory, the Dispatcher must ensure that Stop Signals have been displayed and blocking devices applied to controls of switches and signals leading to the affected track. When trains are to be held at a TBS where blocking devices cannot be applied, the Dispatcher must issue Form D line 13 instructing the Operator to hold trains clear of the affected track. B. Permission to Foul Permission to foul the track must include the following information: 1. Title and name of employee receiving foul time 2. Track designation 3. Track limits (between/at) 4. Time limits The receiving employee must repeat this permission and the Dispatcher must then confirm it before the Foul Time becomes effective. C. Releasing Foul Time Once protection has been provided, it must be maintained until the employee who was granted the foul time has released the foul time. The employee who was granted Foul Time must not release the Foul Time until they have ensured that all fouling activity under their authority has been cleared. The release must include the employee's title and name, and the track designation and limits being released. This information must be repeated by the Dispatcher, and confirmed by the employee releasing the foul time before blocking devices are removed. NORAC 11th Edition – February 1, 2018 To my knowledge - those rules are taught to MofW personnel, not T&E personnel. Not saying that it shouldn't be taught to T&E - just that it is not.
tree68 NORAC already has a rule in place that would apply in this situation: V. Fouling Tracks Fouling a track may be necessary in the performance of railroad work. Employees must expect the movement of trains, locomotives, or other on-track equipment at any time, on any track, in either direction. Employees must maintain a vigilant lookout for and detect the approach of a train, locomotive or other railroad equipment moving in either direction. Proper safeguards for the job classification needing protection must be in place before fouling any track. Direct copy and paste from NORAC, 11th Edition. I have no reason to doubt that CSX has the same, or a very similar, rule. Amtrak uses NORAC. In addition, there are specific rules about fouling track: 140. Foul Time Foul Time may be issued only by the Dispatcher. A. Action Required Prior to Issuance Before issuing or authorizing Foul Time, the Dispatcher must determine that no trains or other on-track equipment have been authorized to occupy the track segment to be fouled. In signaled territory, the Dispatcher must ensure that Stop Signals have been displayed and blocking devices applied to controls of switches and signals leading to the affected track. When trains are to be held at a TBS where blocking devices cannot be applied, the Dispatcher must issue Form D line 13 instructing the Operator to hold trains clear of the affected track. B. Permission to Foul Permission to foul the track must include the following information: 1. Title and name of employee receiving foul time 2. Track designation 3. Track limits (between/at) 4. Time limits The receiving employee must repeat this permission and the Dispatcher must then confirm it before the Foul Time becomes effective. C. Releasing Foul Time Once protection has been provided, it must be maintained until the employee who was granted the foul time has released the foul time. The employee who was granted Foul Time must not release the Foul Time until they have ensured that all fouling activity under their authority has been cleared. The release must include the employee's title and name, and the track designation and limits being released. This information must be repeated by the Dispatcher, and confirmed by the employee releasing the foul time before blocking devices are removed. NORAC 11th Edition – February 1, 2018
V. Fouling Tracks Fouling a track may be necessary in the performance of railroad work. Employees must expect the movement of trains, locomotives, or other on-track equipment at any time, on any track, in either direction. Employees must maintain a vigilant lookout for and detect the approach of a train, locomotive or other railroad equipment moving in either direction. Proper safeguards for the job classification needing protection must be in place before fouling any track.
Direct copy and paste from NORAC, 11th Edition.
I have no reason to doubt that CSX has the same, or a very similar, rule. Amtrak uses NORAC.
In addition, there are specific rules about fouling track:
140. Foul Time Foul Time may be issued only by the Dispatcher.
A. Action Required Prior to Issuance Before issuing or authorizing Foul Time, the Dispatcher must determine that no trains or other on-track equipment have been authorized to occupy the track segment to be fouled. In signaled territory, the Dispatcher must ensure that Stop Signals have been displayed and blocking devices applied to controls of switches and signals leading to the affected track. When trains are to be held at a TBS where blocking devices cannot be applied, the Dispatcher must issue Form D line 13 instructing the Operator to hold trains clear of the affected track.
B. Permission to Foul Permission to foul the track must include the following information:
1. Title and name of employee receiving foul time
2. Track designation
3. Track limits (between/at)
4. Time limits
The receiving employee must repeat this permission and the Dispatcher must then confirm it before the Foul Time becomes effective.
C. Releasing Foul Time Once protection has been provided, it must be maintained until the employee who was granted the foul time has released the foul time. The employee who was granted Foul Time must not release the Foul Time until they have ensured that all fouling activity under their authority has been cleared. The release must include the employee's title and name, and the track designation and limits being released. This information must be repeated by the Dispatcher, and confirmed by the employee releasing the foul time before blocking devices are removed.
NORAC 11th Edition – February 1, 2018
To my knowledge - those rules are taught to MofW personnel, not T&E personnel. Not saying that it shouldn't be taught to T&E - just that it is not.
"Just that it is not" seems to indicate that you purport to have knowledge of Amtrak rules. You do not and you have disappointed your cheerleader.
You say "those rules" which are in direct reference tree 68's post which contains the NORAC 11th Edition – February 1, 2018 rules and you are now trying to say that you are referring to B&O rules??? Nice try at damage control.
Show me where CSX rules are mentioned in tree 68's post that you responded to.
What does me attending or having attended CSX rules have to do with anything? I had no reason to and have not purported to be knowledgeable of them as you did with NORAC.
Here ya go BaltACD it's all here show me where I'm wrong.
charlie hebdo 243129 charlie hebdo It's clearly there as I explained. The inability to infer answers from the context is a form of dyslexia, specifically reading comprehension. Try reading what he said in several posts. So show me exactly where CSX rules are mentioned in Balt's response to tree 68. You cannot that is why you did not. BTW. Just because you seem to have dyslexia and thus can't follow discussions and have manners typical of PC employees, giving orders to other members is out of line. Ditto with insults. Maybe that worked for you with junior crew members on Amtrak, but not on here.
So you can't show me where I'm wrong eh charlie? I'm not surprised. "Insults"?? It seems that you are the one launching insults. Calling me dyslexic for instance.
There is no way I can read this great disagreement being waged here and understand what is at issue. Too much quoted text, and too little explanation. We need to see the big picture.
In any case, there is a rule that thoroughly covers foul time or protection that keeps trains away from people working on the ground.
However the rule does not require any use of foul time. There is no requirement to use foul time in what might be considered dangerous situations in which foul time might seem necessary. It is only an option. Read the rule. It says nothing about a requirement to use it.
So even if this foul time rule applies to both Amtrak and CSX, it does not require either company to grant foul time for any situations. It only governs how foul time works if it is granted.
See quote from NTSB report below in blue, in which the NTSB describes foul time (or "protection" as they call it), how it may be used, and how the NTSB wishes it will be used in the most confusing narrative imaginable. They seem to be saying that the readily available process for foul time is not normally used for cases like Ivy City.
But they say that it could be used as such; as if it has never been used that way before.
Also, apparently this communication that NTSB says “could be used” is something that would work between two different companies such as CSX and Amtrak. They say that is readily available, which suggests that the problem of communicating it between two different companies is not a problem at all.
But still this protection is not mandatory. So NTSB concludes with their recommendation that it be made mandatory. Quote from the report:
“However, there are circumstances when the operating employees cannot safely walk away from the other railroad’s tracks. In these situations, when the crew is fouling the other railroad’s adjacent track, they would need protection.
A current process is readily available to provide this protection. For example, a train dispatcher will communicate with another train dispatcher from a different railroad if a derailed train has obstructed an adjacent railroad’s track. This derailment would be an emergency and has the possibility of contributing to an additional collision and derailment.
The NTSB believes that this same communication could be used to protect employees that find it necessary to occupy the other railroad’s active tracks.
Therefore, to eliminate the hazard of unknown traffic on adjacent tracks of other railroads, the NTSB recommends that CSX and Amtrak prohibit employees from fouling adjacent tracks of another railroad unless the employees are provided protection from trains and/or equipment on the adjacent tracks by means of communication between the two railroads.”
Dyslexia is not an insult. It is a diagnostic category.
charlie hebdo Dyslexia is not an insult. It is a diagnostic category.
So charlie show me where I was wrong. You and BaltACD have been confronted for proof of your claims and you have not (cannot) provide it.
Prove me dyslexic.
Euclid So I am surprised that anyone would blame the two victims while giving CSX a free pass.
It is said that the rulebook is written in blood. If there had ever been a situation like this, with crew members walking on a ROW they had no business walking on, and then getting caught (in this case, killed), there would have been a rule.
In the meantime, the existing rules seem to have worked in the past. Rules are of no use if people don't abide by them.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Those trainmen were only 25 and 20 years old.
tree68 Euclid So I am surprised that anyone would blame the two victims while giving CSX a free pass. It is said that the rulebook is written in blood. If there had ever been a situation like this, with crew members walking on a ROW they had no business walking on, and then getting caught (in this case, killed), there would have been a rule. In the meantime, the existing rules seem to have worked in the past. Rules are of no use if people don't abide by them.
I can't say that they broke no rule, but I am talking about proportionality. For a company that smothers empolyees with rules and hides in the weeds to catch them violating a rule. And with all these rules being about safety; it seems odd that they would send employees into such a dangerous situation without the well established concept of protection.
You keep saying the employees had no business being there. While the employees may have broken a rule by lapsing into ten seconds of distraction as two opposing trains laid on the horn; they had every right to be there if you mean walking on the Amtrak track. It was not prohibited. The NTSB said nothing about an issue of trespass. You can say it was not avisable due to the danger, but how do you get to impose that on others as your personal opinion? It is only a rule that would make it wrong to be there in the only terms that count.
I disagree with your analogy about walking down the middle of a busy highway. That does not compare at all with what the two employees were doing. And it makes no difference whether the CSX engineer could not understand why they walked on the Amtrak track.
And also remember that we are talking about this accident and the general practice in the past and the future. That practice includes the possible need to inspect both sides of the train. How do employees do that if they have no right to be on the Amtrak side?
Being on the "Amtrak side" of their train does not equate with walking on the ties of Amtrak's track.
Lithonia Operator Being on the "Amtrak side" of their train does not equate with walking on the ties of Amtrak's track.
I give up.
243129Here ya go BaltACD it's all here show me where I'm wrong.
CSX and I feel certain most all railroads have a similar segment of rules. How Amtrak conducts their rules classes and how CSX conducts their rules classes are most likely similar but different. Each carrier most likley will concentrate and emphasise the rules that have been demonstrated by previous incidents that employees are having troulbe getting 'correct' from the company's point of view.
Every railroad has thier own rules - the rules may be similar, but not identical. My statement about the rules Tree68 mentions was that CSX had similar rules and those rules were emphasised in MofW Rules Classes and not so much in T&E Rules Classes. All rules apply to all employees, rules classes emphasize the rules each craft of employees are 'most likely' to be using.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Lithonia Operator I give up.
The most sane decision you can make with some of the characters on here, sir.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
BaltACD 243129 Here ya go BaltACD it's all here show me where I'm wrong. CSX and I feel certain most all railroads have a similar segment of rules. How Amtrak conducts their rules classes and how CSX conducts their rules classes are most likely similar but different.
243129 Here ya go BaltACD it's all here show me where I'm wrong.
CSX and I feel certain most all railroads have a similar segment of rules. How Amtrak conducts their rules classes and how CSX conducts their rules classes are most likely similar but different.
What is the relevance of the rules on the procedure of protection or foul time if there is no rule that required it to be used at Ivy City or anywhere else?
You are right that there is a difference between being out of the foul zone of the Amtrak track and within the non-foul zone between the CSX track and the Amtrak track. I estimate the non-foul zone to be 4 feet wide. If the two conductors had stayed within the non-foul zone, they would not have been struck by #175.
From the NTSB report:
“The operating crews were not prohibited from walking either on or near the Amtrak tracks.”
General Safety Rule 10, in this document, states in part, “…be alert for and keep clear of the movement of cars, locomotives, or equipment at any time, in either direction, on any track.”
All we know is that the two conductors disregarded the approach of #175 during the ten seconds between the time the train was in sight and the time it stuck them. This was the total extent of their rules violation that we know of. They had the right to walk on that track, except for the requirement to get clear of #175.
Any claim that the two conductors were careless for walking on the track, or had no right to be there prior to the approach of #175 is nothing more than an opinion that the level of risk was unacceptable.
Your statement, enlarged and highlighted above, is in response to tre68's post about NORAC rules. Where does it say:
"My statement about the rules Tree68 mentions was that CSX had similar rules and those rules were emphasised in MofW Rules Classes and not so much in T&E Rules Classes. All rules apply to all employees, rules classes emphasize the rules each craft of employees are 'most likely' to be using"
You said nothing of the kind.
Your statement to tree68 is in direct response to NORAC rules procedures.
Your attempt at damage control is feeble and your cheering section seems to have gone silent.
Lithonia Operator Those trainmen were only 25 and 20 years old.
Inexperience to go along with their poor training, poor supervision and poor vetting. The unknowing teaching the unknowing.
EuclidAny claim that the two conductors were careless for walking on the track, or had no right to be there prior to the approach of #175 is nothing more than an opinion that the level of risk was unacceptable.
A claim and opinion proven by the fact that they lost their lives.
Just because there is no rule specifically preventing walking on the Amtrak track does not mean that they should do it. You seem to be stuck on "there was no rule," yet you cite the following from the report:
I'm not sure how you can interpret that other than "stay the heck off the tracks unless you absolutely need to be there.
Euclid If the two conductors had stayed within the non-foul zone, they would not have been struck by #175.
And that's all that really needs to be said.
tree68 General Safety Rule 10, in this document, states in part, “…be alert for and keep clear of the movement of cars, locomotives, or equipment at any time, in either direction, on any track.” I'm not sure how you can interpret that other than "stay the heck off the tracks unless you absolutely need to be there.
Yeah, whatever. It's quite clear that you believe that the crew did nothing wrong and that CSX was solely responsible for their deaths because they didn't have a rule.
Joe. Most folks on here, including those with years of rail experience, don't choose to respond to your tantrums and perseverations because you are boring, rude and incapable of an intelligent discussion.
charlie hebdo Joe. Most folks on here, including those with years of rail experience, don't choose to respond to your tantrums and perseverations because you are boring, rude and incapable of an intelligent discussion.
This is your way of dodging the questions I'm asking you. When cornered you run that is part of your modus operandi. This post is an obvious dodge. Point out where my discussions are unintelligent in your estimation. You will avoid answering that by posting some more blather.
Mr. Numbers
Are you a politician? Your pontifications add nothing to the discussion and are pedantic and tiresome.
Here is the Operations Factual Report. On page 6, it shows a head-on view of the CSX train. On your right side as viewing the picture, the next track is the Amtrak track where the two conductors were walking. Previously, I had calculated that there was 5 feet of space between the CSX track and the nearest Amtrak track without fouling either one. But in reviewing this photo again, I am not so sure if there is 5 feet available there. You can see the fouling point on the CSX locomotive. If you placed a similar locomotive on the Amtrak track, there may be more like 3.5 ft. or 4 ft. from the side of the CSX train to the foul line of the Amtrak track.
https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=470783&docketID=62103&mkey=95451
rrnut282 Mr. Numbers Are you a politician? Your pontifications add nothing to the discussion and are pedantic and tiresome.
So tell us what is your position on the ivy City tragedy?
My opinion is mine, and I choose not to share. After wasting an hour reading through this pointless back and forth, I also choose to go to another web-site. Good Day.
rrnut282 My opinion is mine, and I choose not to share. After wasting an hour reading through this pointless back and forth, I also choose to go to another web-site. Good Day.
+1
Yeah - hard to figure how anyone can not understand that walking on the tracks of a 95 MPH mainline is not taking the safe course.
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