Electroliner 1935If you are a masochist. The masochist told the sadist, "Hit Me", and the sadist replied "No"
Do you (ever) have anything to offer on topic? Other than your 'asides' I cannot ever remember you offering anything of substance on any threads I have participated in .
tree68You're driving down a fairly busy suburban street, at the speed limit (say, 35?). Fifty yards in front of you, a ball bounces into the street. You can see a youngster, not yet in the road, but headed that way. Do you immediately make a panic stop? Both feet on the brake pedal, pedal pushed to the floor? Or do you take your foot off the gas, apply light pressure on the brake pedal, and watch to see what Junior does? I'm betting you'll do the latter, watch to see where the kid and the ball go, and if they are both in the clear, you'll keep right on going.
243129 BaltACD Aaha - the old "The older you get the greater you were syndrome." Happens to retirees all the time, in every profession. Not at all my record/career speaks for itself. No "syndrome" involved just facts. The tone of your reply indicates that you are looking 'engage'. Is this so?
BaltACD Aaha - the old "The older you get the greater you were syndrome." Happens to retirees all the time, in every profession.
Not at all my record/career speaks for itself. No "syndrome" involved just facts. The tone of your reply indicates that you are looking 'engage'. Is this so?
There's nothing to engage.
243129 Electroliner 1935 If you are a masochist. The masochist told the sadist, "Hit Me", and the sadist replied "No" Do you (ever) have anything to offer on topic? Other than your 'asides' I cannot ever remember you offering anything of substance on any threads I have participated in .
Electroliner 1935
If you are a masochist. The masochist told the sadist, "Hit Me", and the sadist replied "No"
This was in response to Paul of Covington's saying this string is "FUN"
You get repititious and tiring. So much so that I feel it is getting painful. I am not a moderator. I am ready for this thread to be closed.
So how exactly does Amtrak train their people? Who is doing the training and what does it consist of. How is this different from the class one railroads?
Electroliner 1935You get repititious and tiring. So much so that I feel it is getting painful. I am not a moderator. I am ready for this thread to be closed.
I keep checking back to see if anything new/interesting has been added, but it's just the same-o, same-o.
Electroliner 1935I am not a moderator. I am ready for this thread to be closed.
zardozI keep checking back to see if anything new/interesting has been added, but it's just the same-o, same-o.
I have other words than "the same-o, same-o" to describe it.
On the upside, I do wonder how much on the job (ie, in service with an experienced teacher first demonstrating, and then observing the new engineer after simulator training) does a new Engineer receive.
And of course, sometimes old timers train new ones bad habits.
Getting back OT, there is a lot to be said for mentors and supervision for novices in many jobs. But not all mentors are equally effective, even if their skill sets are outstanding. It also requires the right sorts of personalities.
Electroliner 1935 zardoz I keep checking back to see if anything new/interesting has been added, but it's just the same-o, same-o. I have other words than "the same-o, same-o" to describe it. On the upside, I do wonder how much on the job (ie, in service with an experienced teacher first demonstrating, and then observing the new engineer after simulator training) does a new Engineer receive. And of course, sometimes old timers train new ones bad habits.
zardoz I keep checking back to see if anything new/interesting has been added, but it's just the same-o, same-o.
On CSX in the pre PSR days - 'off the street' Engineers that graduated from REDI would get four to six months of OJT on the territory they were to become qualified upon. The would accept calls in accordance with their rest status - ie. they were not assigned to any particular engineer - whether they picked up good habits or bad I have never been in a position to judge. Engineers that had been qualified on other carriers and came to REDI already possessing their 'Engineers Card' would progress through REDI faster than the 'off the street' variety trainee and would normally get OJT on the territory they are going to be working for one to two months.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tree68 Euclid But every challenge is different, so the reaction should be flexible rather than a consistent habit of memorized behavior. This from a person trying to prove that an emergency application is always justified.
Euclid But every challenge is different, so the reaction should be flexible rather than a consistent habit of memorized behavior.
This from a person trying to prove that an emergency application is always justified.
You are mistating what I said in order to make it more logical to disagree with. I never said that an emergency application is always justified. What I have said is that an emergency appliction should not be routinely withheld until impact in order to establish that the application is necessary.
I have also said that you can't go down the line dumping the air every time someone crosses your path even if it is a little too close. I said an engineer has to read the cues of each situation, and determine whether those indications are that a person is likely clear in time; or to remain on the track and get hit. Only if it is the latter; then make the emgency application without waiting until impact.
However, if a person is walking along a track in the foul zone, and the engineer blows the horn and gets no acknowledgment, that is a sign that there is a better than usual chance they they will not move out of the way. I would make an emergency application at that point. They might step out of the way at the last second, but I would take that chance because it might save a life. And it is not going to happen that often, so it will not lead to a problem with making emergency applications ever mile. Most people want to get out of the way, and they hear and see the train approaching so they know when to get out of the way.
Electroliner 1935 243129 Electroliner 1935 If you are a masochist. The masochist told the sadist, "Hit Me", and the sadist replied "No" Do you (ever) have anything to offer on topic? Other than your 'asides' I cannot ever remember you offering anything of substance on any threads I have participated in . This was in response to Paul of Covington's saying this string is "FUN" You get repititious and tiring. So much so that I feel it is getting painful. I am not a moderator. I am ready for this thread to be closed.
Johnny
EuclidYou are mistating what I said in order to make it more logical to disagree with. I never said that an emergency application is always justified.
Au Contraire - You've been arguing that there is no reason to "withhold" an emergency application in this thread, and in others that had nothing to do with this incident.
You constantly challenge anybody and everybody to explain the justification for "withholding" said application. That sounds to me like you're advocating for an emergency application "no matter what."
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
DeggestyI am ready for the contentious people to grow up;.
Ah never mind.
Electroliner 1935ou get repititious and tiring. So much so that I feel it is getting painful. I am not a moderator. I am ready for this thread to be closed.
Poor vetting, poor training, poor supervision.
tree68 Euclid You are mistating what I said in order to make it more logical to disagree with. I never said that an emergency application is always justified. Au Contraire - You've been arguing that there is no reason to "withhold" an emergency application in this thread, and in others that had nothing to do with this incident. You constantly challenge anybody and everybody to explain the justification for "withholding" said application. That sounds to me like you're advocating for an emergency application "no matter what."
Euclid You are mistating what I said in order to make it more logical to disagree with. I never said that an emergency application is always justified.
So tell me tree, do you believe that 175's engineer acted properly?
243129 Murphy Siding Whether you mean to or not, the vibe you give off is that none of the current Amtrak engineers can live up to how good you were back in the good old days. Not just me...us. Today's engineers do not have the benefit of the "genuine knowledge" passed on to my era by those who have experienced it. In my time as a fireman I had a chance to experience many incidents i.e. fatalities, grade crossing accidents, freight derailments, knuckles, drawbars, hot boxes, manual block and on and on. I had much experience to pass on but Amtrak, in their still existent arrogance, had a 'better idea'. Wilmington training center. All hat no cattle. Railroading is a unique industry that cannot be learned from a book or at a university, only from those who have experienced it. Amtrak chose not to use this resource and the results are evident in the many human error accidents that have occured since they have hired/assumed their own T&E employees. I am very proud of my career as a locomotive engineer. No discipline, no knuckles, no drawbars. That being said I do not consider myself any better than anyone else just better trained. If you detect any bitterness it is against Amtrak and how they have eroded railroad operations with their 'we have a better way' system. They do not as is in evidence with their numerous human error disasters. Amtrak is in dire need of oversight but no one seems to care. Murphy Siding Have you worked alongside Amtrak engineers who were vetted, trained, experienced etc. up to the levels you feel they should have been? Not by Amtrak but some recognized the value of experience and would ask questions/advice which myself and my peers were happy to impart.
Murphy Siding Whether you mean to or not, the vibe you give off is that none of the current Amtrak engineers can live up to how good you were back in the good old days.
Not just me...us. Today's engineers do not have the benefit of the "genuine knowledge" passed on to my era by those who have experienced it. In my time as a fireman I had a chance to experience many incidents i.e. fatalities, grade crossing accidents, freight derailments, knuckles, drawbars, hot boxes, manual block and on and on. I had much experience to pass on but Amtrak, in their still existent arrogance, had a 'better idea'. Wilmington training center. All hat no cattle. Railroading is a unique industry that cannot be learned from a book or at a university, only from those who have experienced it. Amtrak chose not to use this resource and the results are evident in the many human error accidents that have occured since they have hired/assumed their own T&E employees.
I am very proud of my career as a locomotive engineer. No discipline, no knuckles, no drawbars. That being said I do not consider myself any better than anyone else just better trained. If you detect any bitterness it is against Amtrak and how they have eroded railroad operations with their 'we have a better way' system. They do not as is in evidence with their numerous human error disasters. Amtrak is in dire need of oversight but no one seems to care.
Murphy Siding Have you worked alongside Amtrak engineers who were vetted, trained, experienced etc. up to the levels you feel they should have been?
Not by Amtrak but some recognized the value of experience and would ask questions/advice which myself and my peers were happy to impart.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
charlie hebdo 243129 BaltACD Aaha - the old "The older you get the greater you were syndrome." Happens to retirees all the time, in every profession. Not at all my record/career speaks for itself. No "syndrome" involved just facts. The tone of your reply indicates that you are looking 'engage'. Is this so? There's nothing to engage.
I wasn't talking to you.
243129 charlie hebdo 243129 BaltACD Aaha - the old "The older you get the greater you were syndrome." Happens to retirees all the time, in every profession. Not at all my record/career speaks for itself. No "syndrome" involved just facts. The tone of your reply indicates that you are looking 'engage'. Is this so? There's nothing to engage. I wasn't talking to you.
Who cares? You don't control this thread, though given your admiration for your hero Mao, you'd love having dictatorial powers.
I was asked if my post a little while ago were my first post on this thread. I do not remember if it is was or not, and I do not know what difference it would make had that been my first post, but I have beeen reading the thread since it was first posted, and have seen how contentious certain people are. I did not call any names.
Murphy SidingI'm thinking about the timeline here. If I read this right, you were a passenger engineer for a railroad before Amtrak came along in 1971. Then you became an Amtrak engineer. Am I right so far? You seem to indicate that once Amtrak took over the passenger business, everything went to hell in a handbasket. It appears to me- and this is just my opinion- that you don't have thing against the Amtrak engineer we are discusing so much as you have a thing for Amtrak. They came in and changed your world, and you've held a grudge against them since 1971.
You read it wrong.
I was an engineer in all classes of service for the following companies, NY.NH.&H,PennCentral,Conrail, Metro North and Amtrak which did not assume their own employees on the NEC until 1983. Once Amtrak took over then training and operations "went to hell in a hand basket".
What you promote as a grudge is a clarion call for oversight of Amtrak's dangerous hiring and training procedures.
The Amtrak engineer that we are discussing is a 'victim' of said hiring and training practices
charlie hebdo 243129 charlie hebdo 243129 BaltACD Aaha - the old "The older you get the greater you were syndrome." Happens to retirees all the time, in every profession. Not at all my record/career speaks for itself. No "syndrome" involved just facts. The tone of your reply indicates that you are looking 'engage'. Is this so? There's nothing to engage. I wasn't talking to you. Who cares? You don't control this thread, though given your admiration for your hero Mao, you'd love having dictatorial powers.
You can't behave yourself can you charlie? I guess you don't want to play nice.
Maybe you see this as a game to play out your resentment towards Amtrak as Murphy said. I don't really care. You are a disruptive, embittered person.
You have repeatedly made the case that the emergency application should be withheld right up to the point of impact for a variety of reasons such as passenger injuries or possibly derailing the train. I disagree with your ideas about that because I believe it often results in withholding an emergency application that has a possibility doing a lot of good. At the same time, I do not believe that the actual risk of derailment or injuring passengers is high enough to justify forgoing the benefit that might come from making the emergency before impact. That is what we disagree about.
I am talking about the action somewhere in the range of the final approach where the train is close enough for the situation to be seen and interpreted by the engineer, but distant enough for emergency braking to potentially have benefit by either slowing the train or giving more time for the person or vehicle to clear. So when I talk about there being no reason to “withhold an emergency application,” I mean no reason to withhold it from starting at some point within that final approach.
But there are many cases in which some incidental fouling or potential fouling can be observed developing 2000 feet away. Often it looks like it will clear in time. If not, it may pay to keep an eye on it. But most of those situations would not justify making an emergency application that far away. I have never intended to advocate doing that. If you think I have, please let me know where.
So generally, I advocate early in the final approach, while you advocate waiting until the end of the final approach.
And he repeats the same stuff over and over, occasionally engaging in circular reasoning. This thread is dead, killed by Bucky and Joe with logorrhea.
charlie hebdo And he repeats the same stuff over and over, occasionally engaging in circular reasoning. This thread is dead, killed by Bucky and Joe with logorrhea.
I for one am disgusted with all their nonsense. Time for a forum holiday. If it weren't for having seen Big Boy twice, I'm not sure if I would have continued this waste of time.
243129So tell me tree, do you believe that 175's engineer acted properly?
I believe she acted within the the scope of her training and experience. Given the apparent situation, I don't believe anything she could have done would have changed the outcome.
I have observed that the numbered one vents long and hard about the deterioration of training and supervisory standards at Amtrak for reasons unknown. When pressed for proposed solutions, he suddenly clams up and says that he's not responsible for that matter.
EuclidSo generally, I advocate early in the final approach, while you advocate waiting until the end of the final approach.
At no point have I said that I advocate any specific action. It all depends on the situation.
What I have said is that, in this case, even dumping the train when the crew members were first spotted would have had no appreciable effect on the outcome of the incident.
You have stated that the engineer of 175 said she had been in similar situations before, and that she said she'd never had anyone not move off the tracks. Therefore, I would opine that she acted based on her experience, which apparently led her to believe that no emergency application was immediately necessary. It was reported that she was moving toward a brake application.
Therefore, it's not a reach to suggest that if her experience instead indicated that an emergency application was appropriate, she would have made one almost immediately.
I would also opine that such a thought process is probably prevalent in such situations, leading engineers to wait until it is clear that the obstruction will not move before dumping the brakes.
As I said earlier - you tend toward black and white "if this, then that" solutions. Unfortunately, the world operates in many shades of gray.
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