It is well known that charging a brake pipe in cold weather is slowed by increased leakage of the glad hand rubber gaskets. I don’t know the cause of this runaway, but there has to be a clear reason why an emergency application unintentionally releases in two hours.
If this was caused by extremely cold temperatures, it would not be related to leaking glad hand gaskets. It would likely be related to leaking piston seals in the brake cylinders of each railcar due to the cold. On level track, this would probably not pose a problem because an emergency application would overwhelm the piston seal leakage and stop the train.
What the low temperature leakage of the piston seals would do is allow the emergency application to leak off after stopping the train. If the train were stopped on a grade by an emergency application during extreme cold, the loss of the application due to leakage would be disastrous.
It would be interesting to know the rules governing this situation of stopping and holding a train at this location. Stopping and holding the train on the grade with just an emergency application and no handbrakes seems like a very high risk gamble. I doubt that the rules would allow that gamble.
And that is the problem and reason why U.S. freight car technology is frozen except in areas where it can be improved without affecting interchangeability. Any improvement that affects interchangeability must be made as an independent overlay, and then when all freight cars are converted, the obsolete equipment can be removed and the new equipment installed by overlay will become the new standard.
This restriction to improvement primarily affects couplers and braking systems. The strongest challenge to the limitation has been ECP braking. Handbrakes could be improved without affecting interchangeability as long as they remain controlled at each freight car and do not require a power supply or use the power of the air brake compressed air. Otherwise, the Nineteenth Century handbrake is probably the best candidate for being replaced by a modern solution. Yet it will endure with its unreliability, danger, and enormous consumption of manual labor.
Balt hit the nail right on the head. Most proposals for ECP and other braking system updates do not provide for backward compatibility with the existing system. It is one thing to install a new system in cars that are in captive or non-interchange service and something quite different to install that system in cars in general service that would operate with non-equipped cars.
Shadow the Cats owner blue streak 1 Murphy Siding The thread above about this area of track being challenging says "the train was parked with the emergency brakes applied at Partridge siding". If the train was in the siding, wouldn't the switch be set against the train and have to be lined before a train could go through it? We know the locos could have run thru the switch breaking the control rod and all the rest of the train could run thru it easily. Now if the RR had been required to put a split rail derails on the down hill side of any siding over a certain slope the train would have piled up into a berm at a very slow speed! The same as Lac-Megantic! Would it cost? Yes of course especially in snow country. But what is the alternative? More accidents including another haz mat cargo? Much less costly than installing your brake system on all north American cars! I've been talking to a few mechanical engineers. They say if we used the brake chamber already on there and 1 extra valve that takes its signals from the exhaust and the aux res only the cost would be 2 grand per car to redo the entire fleet for materials. No extra brake systems required 1 valve one new brake cylinder that will be designed to allow switching without requiring air to be on the car and that's all folks.
blue streak 1 Murphy Siding The thread above about this area of track being challenging says "the train was parked with the emergency brakes applied at Partridge siding". If the train was in the siding, wouldn't the switch be set against the train and have to be lined before a train could go through it? We know the locos could have run thru the switch breaking the control rod and all the rest of the train could run thru it easily. Now if the RR had been required to put a split rail derails on the down hill side of any siding over a certain slope the train would have piled up into a berm at a very slow speed! The same as Lac-Megantic! Would it cost? Yes of course especially in snow country. But what is the alternative? More accidents including another haz mat cargo? Much less costly than installing your brake system on all north American cars!
Murphy Siding The thread above about this area of track being challenging says "the train was parked with the emergency brakes applied at Partridge siding". If the train was in the siding, wouldn't the switch be set against the train and have to be lined before a train could go through it?
The thread above about this area of track being challenging says "the train was parked with the emergency brakes applied at Partridge siding". If the train was in the siding, wouldn't the switch be set against the train and have to be lined before a train could go through it?
We know the locos could have run thru the switch breaking the control rod and all the rest of the train could run thru it easily. Now if the RR had been required to put a split rail derails on the down hill side of any siding over a certain slope the train would have piled up into a berm at a very slow speed! The same as Lac-Megantic!
Would it cost? Yes of course especially in snow country. But what is the alternative? More accidents including another haz mat cargo?
Much less costly than installing your brake system on all north American cars!
I've been talking to a few mechanical engineers. They say if we used the brake chamber already on there and 1 extra valve that takes its signals from the exhaust and the aux res only the cost would be 2 grand per car to redo the entire fleet for materials. No extra brake systems required 1 valve one new brake cylinder that will be designed to allow switching without requiring air to be on the car and that's all folks.
Only two grand a car - for half a million or more rail cars - we'll sign your boss up to finance the miracle changes and you can save the rail industry.
Don't forget you design changes also have to work seamlessly with cars that have yet to be converted to your miracle changes.
Once the AAR agrees and sets your standard it should only take 5 to 8 years to get the entire fleet equipped.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
DeggestyThrown wrong--it is not lined for the movement you want to make. Thrown right--it is lined for the movement you want to make.
Thrown right--it is lined for the movement you want to make.
There are two positions for a power switch - Normal or Reverse - in its simplest implementation switches at the end of a Passing siding, when lined for the Main track in straight away movement - the switches are lined Normal. When a switch is thrown to allow access to the siding the switch is lined Reverse.
Communications between Dispatchers and Signal Maintainers, MofW Employees and T&E Crews will refer to the position of the swtitch as Normal or Reverse.
Thrown wrong--it is not lined for the movement you want to make.
Johnny
NDG Line Reopen. FYI., Line Reopen, first West down in Field. Thank You.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
zugmann Murphy Siding The thread above about this area of track being challenging says "the train was parked with the emergency brakes applied at Partridge siding". If the train was in the siding, wouldn't the switch be set against the train and have to be lined before a train could go through it? Unless there's a derail, a trailing point switch isn't stopping anything if it's thrown wrong. Just breaks the switch.
Unless there's a derail, a trailing point switch isn't stopping anything if it's thrown wrong. Just breaks the switch.
Shadow the Cats owner Zugman no I'm getting tired of reading about people dying in an industry that makes billions of dollars each quarter yet refuses to consider anything that would save the lives of their employees and people along their right of way over the needs of their shareholders and vulture capitalists that all they care about is how much money they're squeezing out of the place. Sorry I care a whole lot more about my driver's making it home safe and sound than I care about getting a new phone or getting my nails done. If it makes me a swallow person for putting a human life first instead of the almighty dollar than I am not going to apologize for that. I have seen way to many pictures of blood ama guts from idiots whose companies picked money over them. So what if it's going to cost a couple billion dollars to do this. There's a time to do things not because it's forced upon you but the right thing to do. This is one of those things. What's next they pile up a hazmat train off of Cajon or Donner for the same reason before people say enough is enough. How many people have to be killed before they say enough.
Zugman no I'm getting tired of reading about people dying in an industry that makes billions of dollars each quarter yet refuses to consider anything that would save the lives of their employees and people along their right of way over the needs of their shareholders and vulture capitalists that all they care about is how much money they're squeezing out of the place. Sorry I care a whole lot more about my driver's making it home safe and sound than I care about getting a new phone or getting my nails done. If it makes me a swallow person for putting a human life first instead of the almighty dollar than I am not going to apologize for that. I have seen way to many pictures of blood ama guts from idiots whose companies picked money over them. So what if it's going to cost a couple billion dollars to do this. There's a time to do things not because it's forced upon you but the right thing to do. This is one of those things. What's next they pile up a hazmat train off of Cajon or Donner for the same reason before people say enough is enough. How many people have to be killed before they say enough.
Would that be the same mechanical engineer qouted by an Iowa news outlet who said tank cars handling hazardous materials were only designed to be operated at 20/25 mph? IRRC, it was a professor/teacher of ME at the U of I in Iowa City who said that in an article after one of the oil train derailments.
Jeff
Overmod Euclid The ideal securement brake is a single control in the locomotive cab that can apply and release the securement brake simultaneously on all cars in the train. I worked out a design for this brake. It has its own air cylinder on each car ... It occurs to me that there's a better approach to this, better in fact than implementing 'motorized' handbrake application (as someone pointed out does already exist for locomotives). All that is needed is an arrangement that mechanically locks the existing air-brake piston, either 'on demand' or automatically, only after a full emergency application has been made (and full air pressure has been applied to the cylinder and associated foundation down to shoes).
Euclid The ideal securement brake is a single control in the locomotive cab that can apply and release the securement brake simultaneously on all cars in the train. I worked out a design for this brake. It has its own air cylinder on each car ...
It occurs to me that there's a better approach to this, better in fact than implementing 'motorized' handbrake application (as someone pointed out does already exist for locomotives).
All that is needed is an arrangement that mechanically locks the existing air-brake piston, either 'on demand' or automatically, only after a full emergency application has been made (and full air pressure has been applied to the cylinder and associated foundation down to shoes).
That is exactly what I described about my securment brake concept that I described a few posts above. With my concept, you set the air brakes and then a locking lever is actuated to grab the brake cylinder lever in order to mechanically prevent the lever from moving into the brake release position. You can leave air in the brake cylinder or leave it depressurised. But the brakes will be locked in applied position as long as the mechancial lock lever remains engaged.
This locking feature cannot accidentally engage while the train is moving with brakes released. The train has to be stopped with air brakes applied in order to engage the brake lock lever.
This securement brake would need to be released for switching cars. When released and no air on the car at all, the handbrake can be applied and released with no interference from the securement brake mechanism.
This is ready for manufactuing with all details modeled in Solidworks. There are some issues that need to be investigated and maybe tweaked a bit. For instance, when you go to the full force brake application, there needs to be some small clearance between the engaging features of the locking lever and the brake cylinder lever. This is needed in order for the locking lever to get into locked position without any interference from the brake cylinder lever.
This small clearance would allow the locking lever to relax slightly into the release position once the brake cylinder leaked down. You don't want that relaxing to be enough to compromise the securred brake application. But I think it could be tweaked to get the mechanism to provide relable securrement braking even with some operating clearances.
Much less costly than installing your brake system on all north American cars! lets "KISS" it.
Perhaps another simpler solution when "hours of service"apply in a dangerous location. Just move on to a safe place and then be relieved at that location. It should be a very short distance to a "much less dangerous location" and safer than working for another short period of time.
OvermodI would do this via proximity rather than 'command', so that the locks are only released on the 'return' from mandatorily walking the train after an emergency set.
Not all emergency applications require walking the train.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
EuclidThe ideal securement brake is a single control in the locomotive cab that can apply and release the securement brake simultaneously on all cars in the train. I worked out a design for this brake. It has its own air cylinder on each car ...
All that is needed is an arrangement that mechanically locks the existing air-brake piston, either 'on demand' or automatically, only after a full emergency application has been made (and full air pressure has been applied to the cylinder and associated foundation down to shoes). This could be done with a small dedicated air reservoir on each car, with manual pulloff for release, but I'd personally think that electrical would be a better approach. (Note that this is entirely separate from a current ECP system, but adds positive mechanical brake engagement to it ... and unless I'm mistaken, definitively solves the issue with repeats of the S-4200 'bug' allowing train runaways with existing ECP programming design.)
A somewhat simpler approach would be to provide a spring-loaded pin with a pyro or cold-gas actuated latch which could be deployed with externally-visible 'locked' indication for positive engagement once an emergency (or penalty) stop had been completed. Arrangements to gang-release the locks are not technically difficult and could be made for wireless actuation, but I would do this via proximity rather than 'command', so that the locks are only released on the 'return' from mandatorily walking the train after an emergency set.
So back to this incident .. Was setting of handbrakes required after the emergency stop?
Found this old thread about the proper number of brakes to set.
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/219332/2421340.aspx?page=1
Shadow the Cats ownerZugman no I'm getting tired of reading about people dying in an industry that makes billions of dollars each quarter yet refuses to consider anything that would save the lives of their employees and people along their right of way over the needs of their shareholders and vulture capitalists that all they care about is how much money they're squeezing out of the place. Sorry I care a whole lot more about my driver's making it home safe and sound than I care about getting a new phone or getting my nails done. If it makes me a swallow person for putting a human life first instead of the almighty dollar than I am not going to apologize for that. I have seen way to many pictures of blood ama guts from idiots whose companies picked money over them. So what if it's going to cost a couple billion dollars to do this. There's a time to do things not because it's forced upon you but the right thing to do. This is one of those things. What's next they pile up a hazmat train off of Cajon or Donner for the same reason before people say enough is enough. How many people have to be killed before they say enough.
And what am I supposed to do about it?
zugmann Euclid But other than that, the system only requires adding some basic parts to each railcar. All of the new parts are designed in the same mechanical engineering spirit as the brake rigging, cylinders, pins, and levers that are already in use under each railcar. That's a big "only" there, bud.
Euclid But other than that, the system only requires adding some basic parts to each railcar. All of the new parts are designed in the same mechanical engineering spirit as the brake rigging, cylinders, pins, and levers that are already in use under each railcar.
That's a big "only" there, bud.
Well sure, there is some cost to it, but it saves a lot of money needed to walk the train setting and releasing handbrakes. And it also prevents a few multi-million dollar runaways and several injuries and fatalities along the way.
Murphy SidingThe thread above about this area of track being challenging says "the train was parked with the emergency brakes applied at Partridge siding". If the train was in the siding, wouldn't the switch be set against the train and have to be lined before a train could go through it?
Shadow the Cats ownerYes I understand how the switching system works for the railroads having had to help move the cars in our SIT yard more then freaking once around here. However I can not understand why your industry is so freaking callous about the loss of life in these accidents. These crews had families that are ripped apart by the loss of their loved ones and the words thats how it is in the railroad life rings hollow in their ears. When my boss asks for ways to make his drivers more comfortable out on the road he does NOT respond with that's how we always have done it. We see if we can implement it on a decent cost basis for us and what it will mean for our drivers and if so WE DO IT. But then at least here we treat our employees as they are humans not something that can be disposed of if they get killed like the railroads are doing anymore. Also like your treating them to. They died so move on instead of asking for a better system to prevent runaways in the mountains.
What is needed to prevent losing control of trains on steep grades is ECP brakes.
What is needed for freight train securement is a brake that prevents a train from rolling just like a parking brake keeps vehicles from rolling when left parked. On trains, this function is performed by setting and releasing handbrakes. The problem with that is the time and effort required to set as many as 50 or more hand brakes on mountain grades. Another problem is that the handbrakes wear or their maintenance is neglected, so the actual brake wheel manual force needed does not reflect that actual amount of braking resistance applied. And different people apply different amounts of force with no actual standard measure of force stipulated or measured.
The ideal securement brake is a single control in the locomotive cab that can apply and release the securement brake simultaneously on all cars in the train. I worked out a design for this brake. It has its own air cylinder on each car, and the cylinder forces the piston out by air pressure, and allows it to retract by spring pressure. This cylinder operates a locking lever that can block the brake cylinder lever from returning the train brakes to release position if the locking cylinder is vented and allows the spring to retract the piston.
When the train is running with brakes released, all of the securement brake cylinders are pressurized to hold the locking lever in the released position. To set the securement brake when the train stops, first the automatic air brake is applied in either a full service or emergency application. Then the securement brake control is used to depressurize and vent the securement brake cylinders. As those cylinders vent, the spring retracts the pistons, which pulls the securement locking lever into a position in which it holds the air brake cylinder lever. This action then mechanically prevents the air brake cylinders from releasing the brake foundation rigging for the car brakes.
To release the securement brake, the train brakes must be applied maximum braking force. Then the securement brake control is moved to the release position, which extends the securement brake cylinder pistons, which in turn, moves the securement locking lever out of interference with the brake cylinder lever. Then, when the train brakes are released, their foundation rigging is mechanically free to move the brake shoes away from their wheel contact.
The probable showstopper with this idea, however, is the need for a second air line running throughout the train to operate the securement brake. But other than that, the system only requires adding some basic parts to each railcar. All of the new parts are designed in the same mechanical engineering spirit as the brake rigging, cylinders, pins, and levers that are already in use under each railcar.
We're getting off the point with your all-too familiar pseudo profanity-laden rants on here. It's not just a simple design change (that we'd need to do to how many railcars??), but a fundamental design change in how the railroad operates, inlcuding how many private industries are able to move their cars around.
Your comparing the actions of your one boss for one small company to the entire way an industry is operated. Very small apples and very large oranges.
Yes I understand how the switching system works for the railroads having had to help move the cars in our SIT yard more then freaking once around here. However I can not understand why your industry is so freaking callous about the loss of life in these accidents. These crews had families that are ripped apart by the loss of their loved ones and the words thats how it is in the railroad life rings hollow in their ears. When my boss asks for ways to make his drivers more comfortable out on the road he does NOT respond with that's how we always have done it. We see if we can implement it on a decent cost basis for us and what it will mean for our drivers and if so WE DO IT. But then at least here we treat our employees as they are humans not something that can be disposed of if they get killed like the railroads are doing anymore. Also like your treating them to. They died so move on instead of asking for a better system to prevent runaways in the mountains.
The system we use per Federal Regulations each axle equipped with spring brakes must be able to hold the entire weight of the vechile on a 20 percent grade on Wet smooth Concrete. You know of any hand applied handbrake that coudl do that. We can stop 40 tons with just 4 wheels in an emergency.
How to do switching the rod used for bleeding could be used as a catch to prevent the parking aka emergency brake from being applied. You could still flat and hump switch yet have the parking brake when done. Yes the railroads have done things this way for over a century however it might be time for things to change a little okay.
Shadow the Cats ownerWhat's the body count now 52 or more from a system that if there is no pressure in the system the train can roll away.
You do understnad how hump yards and switching without air work, don't you?
Apparently, you have those who know nothing about mountain railroading teaching the unlearned how to handle trains in mountains.
Shadow the Cats ownerThe time has come and passed for the railroads to at least join the 20th century on a brake system that if it loses the air pressure it's still not going to let people die. What's the body count now 52 or more from a system that if there is no pressure in the system the train can roll away.
The task of braking a 112 car train on a 2.2% grade that weighs in the neighborhood of 16K tons is a major undertaking and requires a lot of braking power, a lot more power than can be developed in the trucking air over spring form of air brakes.
If the Relief Crew made a release of the trains Emergency Applicaion (no matter how that application was made) without securing the train with hand brakes first - they were their own worst enemy. If the original crew stopped the train by using a Emergency Applicatio and did not apply hand brakes, they set a trap that the Relief Crew walked into.
Mountain railroading is exacting in what must be done for it to be done safely. Miss a step and the result can be your life.
In our current society of push botton everything, hand brakes may be looked upon as an anachronism - they are not. Keeping trains moving in the mountains is one thing. The more difficult task is getting a stopped train in the mountains moving safely and under control.
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