Murphy Siding RailRoader608 I suspect a large percentage of truck freight doesn't need truck speed half as much as it needs truck reliability. That's where rail falls on its face. Ding!
RailRoader608 I suspect a large percentage of truck freight doesn't need truck speed half as much as it needs truck reliability. That's where rail falls on its face.
I suspect a large percentage of truck freight doesn't need truck speed half as much as it needs truck reliability. That's where rail falls on its face.
Ding!
You mean to say that those couple of containers of hay that were in my stack train's consist the other night weren't a priority?
Jeff
CNSFAutonomous railcars aren't so much about eliminating crews. They're about eliminating the need for trains. If you don't need trains, you don't need yards, switching, or terminal dwell time. Every shipment travels on its own from origin to final destination. No waiting until you have enough volume to run a train, or for a rested crew; no missed connections or misrouting due to blocking errors.
That might be workable if the rail system was electrified. However, tens (or is it hundreds) of thousands of diesel motorized railcars running around needing maintenance and refueling, and maybe many mini-terminals, would lose much of rail's advantage. Plus then you would still need a truck for the last mile.
Murphy SidingWhy does intermodal freight all have to go so fast? True, some things need to go fast and people are willing to pay more. But, at some point doesn't it make sense for Walmart to order those containers of toasters into the distribution center a week earlier and ship them by rail at lower rates?
Walmart or someone has to pay the carrying costs for that extra week the inventory is on the books. Also the retailer has to rely on one week older sales stats to guess how many toasters to order, so more likely missed sales or overstock. There are reasons for just-in-time.
MidlandMike Murphy Siding Why does intermodal freight all have to go so fast? True, some things need to go fast and people are willing to pay more. But, at some point doesn't it make sense for Walmart to order those containers of toasters into the distribution center a week earlier and ship them by rail at lower rates? Walmart or someone has to pay the carrying costs for that extra week the inventory is on the books. Also the retailer has to rely on one week older sales stats to guess how many toasters to order, so more likely missed sales or overstock. There are reasons for just-in-time.
Murphy Siding Why does intermodal freight all have to go so fast? True, some things need to go fast and people are willing to pay more. But, at some point doesn't it make sense for Walmart to order those containers of toasters into the distribution center a week earlier and ship them by rail at lower rates?
Wal-Mart traffic can lose a week or more on its trip from China to US Ports.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
MidlandMike CNSF Autonomous railcars aren't so much about eliminating crews. They're about eliminating the need for trains. If you don't need trains, you don't need yards, switching, or terminal dwell time. Every shipment travels on its own from origin to final destination. No waiting until you have enough volume to run a train, or for a rested crew; no missed connections or misrouting due to blocking errors. That might be workable if the rail system was electrified. However, tens (or is it hundreds) of thousands of diesel motorized railcars running around needing maintenance and refueling, and maybe many mini-terminals, would lose much of rail's advantage. Plus then you would still need a truck for the last mile.
CNSF Autonomous railcars aren't so much about eliminating crews. They're about eliminating the need for trains. If you don't need trains, you don't need yards, switching, or terminal dwell time. Every shipment travels on its own from origin to final destination. No waiting until you have enough volume to run a train, or for a rested crew; no missed connections or misrouting due to blocking errors.
I've heard that BNSF has given up on their LNG experiment and is now interested in battery power. I believe the idea is for battery-pack cars (tenders?) that could swapped out as needed at enroute terminals. That seems like a more realistic way to electrify the entire rail network than catenary or third rail. However, that would likely require further improvement in battery technology.
Given that most people who are talking about autonomous trucks are also talking about battery-powered electric trucks, I'm guessing that issues such as maintenance and recharging/battery swapping enroute would be more or less equal regardless of mode.
The really big change is to start thinking about the railroad as an alternative form of highway. To hear people on this forum tell it, trucking with its higher costs has pushed rail almost to death's door. Maybe, if the rails functioned more like a highway, they wouldn't need such a big cost advantage?
You're right about still needing a truck for first and last mile - assuming you're dealing with containers. I suspect that the big winner in this system would be general merchandise carload, rather than intermodal. Imagine if a tank, hopper, or box car could simply pull out of the customer spur onto the mainline and navigate its own way all the way to the destination spur, stopping only for battery swaps or whatever. That could lead to a boom in new rail-served facilities.
BaltACD MidlandMike Murphy Siding Why does intermodal freight all have to go so fast? True, some things need to go fast and people are willing to pay more. But, at some point doesn't it make sense for Walmart to order those containers of toasters into the distribution center a week earlier and ship them by rail at lower rates? Walmart or someone has to pay the carrying costs for that extra week the inventory is on the books. Also the retailer has to rely on one week older sales stats to guess how many toasters to order, so more likely missed sales or overstock. There are reasons for just-in-time. Wal-Mart traffic can lose a week or more on its trip from China to US Ports.
Which is why manufacturing will eventually return to North America; once robots are as functional and cheap as any foreign labor.
While autonomos rail cars may help carload and intermodal, there is still much unit train and bulk traffic which would still move more efficently by trainload. Would the autonomous cars need their own grade seperated ROW?
Murphy siding part of your problem might be what your shipper or their broker is offering to pay for those loads. SE South Dakota is not exactly a hotbed of outbound Flatbed loads. Most of the time out of there they have a 3-400 mile deadhead to a better lane of freight. Now if it comes in on a reefer they can get stuff quicker outbound.
The biggest issue facing the railroads force marching themselves on the alter of EHH towards PSR and to hell what it does to customer relations. Just keep driving them away to the point that unless they do trainloads a week you won't do business with them. Sooner or later the STB will get involved again and look out when they do. The carnage will be massive and the railroads will be going oh crap.
What is it about PSR that customers don't like?
Lack of service if their local customers. Being charged higher rates if they refuse to provide the same amount of loads everyday higher demurrage rates when the railroad misses their own switch times. Then throw in if your a smaller customer like my boss is on his resins they might just say sorry your not worth the effort anymore to even service and refuse to even switch you. We average 10 cars each week with the BNSF and worry if they went to PSR if that would be enough. Salic Plastics one of our larger OTR customers in Ottawa just north of us was required to ship 30 a day for CSX to keep servicing them. They were only shipping on average 25 a day. US Silica was told 40 a day or loose their shipping on CSX when EHH took over. That give you an idea on why customers hate PSR.
Euclid What is it about PSR that customers don't like?
For one, having their arm twisted to be open to 24/7 service when they'd prefer M-F 8AM to 4PM...with demurage changes to match.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Carload shipment of finished manufactured goods is as good as dead. One main reason? Switching. 4 mph impacts can break a lot of toasters.
Notice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days.
oltmanndNotice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days.
Mostly because they are 'long' cars that have wide swinging drawbars and couplers that will very likely bypass when attempting to couple and create a derailment on the track(s) they were switched to.
CNSFHmm, good question. My initial reaction is that I'm not sure you would need a separate ROW, unless you want to run the single or smaller-group shipments at a much faster speed than the big unit trains. I doubt that would be necessary though, since you're already saving so much time by not having those smaller lots sitting around in yards waiting to be aggregated into a big train, waiting for connections, etc.
On the major lanes I would think you would need two sets of tracks for both directions with possibly more crossovers to allow traffic to go around robot cars that have broken down. Or those which can't or won't run as fast. (All traffic will move as fast as the slowest vehicle if one can't easily pass another.)
And since these cars are now without a person on board, wouldn't almost every switch on the rail system need to be powered? I would expect as a robot car approached a junction, it would tell the switch (by radio) which route it needed to use. The switch would then line itself accordingly. We won't discuss, for now, who will operate the switch if for some reason it fails to line or lock up.
jeffhergert On the major lanes I would think you would need two sets of tracks for both directions with possibly more crossovers to allow traffic to go around robot cars that have broken down. Or those which can't or won't run as fast. (All traffic will move as fast as the slowest vehicle if one can't easily pass another.) And since these cars are now without a person on board, wouldn't almost every switch on the rail system need to be powered? I would expect as a robot car approached a junction, it would tell the switch (by radio) which route it needed to use. The switch would then line itself accordingly. We won't discuss, for now, who will operate the switch if for some reason it fails to line or lock up. Jeff
You're right, all the traffic would be moving at the same speed, as if on a conveyor belt, and all the switches would need to be powered. Also, single track mainlines would be doable, but inefficient, as traffic would have to be bunched together and "fleeted" over the sections between sidings - so a lot of stopping and waiting. In that case you'd still have the look and feel of a train, only it would be made up of whatever traffic is at hand, kind of like when a road is down to one lane due to construction or whatever. I suspect we'd see a lot of new double track.
A breakdown could delay scores of shipments, but then again, isn't that what happens today when one car in a 10,000-foot train goes bad order?
It's interesting to think about how the rail network might be reconfigured to be optimized for autonomous railcars, and how the transition from the status quo would play out. I imagine it would be an incremental process that could take decades to fully play out.
CNSFI imagine it would be an incremental process that could take decades to fully play out.
Also what do we do with industries that have many tracks, spots, and switches? I guess they'll ahve to build a departure track and invest in trackmobiles. They probably won't be keen on railcars moving around their properties with nobody on them, either.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
BaltACD oltmannd Notice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days. Mostly because they are 'long' cars that have wide swinging drawbars and couplers that will very likely bypass when attempting to couple and create a derailment on the track(s) they were switched to.
oltmannd Notice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days.
A typical day at the Symington (Winnipeg) hump. Look what's about to go over:
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MTIAjB7qoNc/V9hd8u68d0I/AAAAAAAAyxE/Uaa9ApXB6YE7BhQ2wfXR96USGXYLN1FCgCLcB/s1600/7522%2B7511%2BWinnipeg%2B20160903%2BSLB.jpg
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70Dude BaltACD oltmannd Notice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days. Mostly because they are 'long' cars that have wide swinging drawbars and couplers that will very likely bypass when attempting to couple and create a derailment on the track(s) they were switched to. A typical day at the Symington (Winnipeg) hump. Look what's about to go over: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MTIAjB7qoNc/V9hd8u68d0I/AAAAAAAAyxE/Uaa9ApXB6YE7BhQ2wfXR96USGXYLN1FCgCLcB/s1600/7522%2B7511%2BWinnipeg%2B20160903%2BSLB.jpg
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding SD70Dude BaltACD oltmannd Notice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days. Mostly because they are 'long' cars that have wide swinging drawbars and couplers that will very likely bypass when attempting to couple and create a derailment on the track(s) they were switched to. A typical day at the Symington (Winnipeg) hump. Look what's about to go over: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MTIAjB7qoNc/V9hd8u68d0I/AAAAAAAAyxE/Uaa9ApXB6YE7BhQ2wfXR96USGXYLN1FCgCLcB/s1600/7522%2B7511%2BWinnipeg%2B20160903%2BSLB.jpg Hey- thats my wood in the foreground! Tolko oriented strand board and West Fraser framing lumber. We've received lumber cars that have been banged around enough that most of the lumber had shifted.
Hey- thats my wood in the foreground! Tolko oriented strand board and West Fraser framing lumber. We've received lumber cars that have been banged around enough that most of the lumber had shifted.
Sorry, I'll try to be gentle next time!
oltmanndCarload shipment of finished manufactured goods is as good as dead. One main reason? Switching. 4 mph impacts can break a lot of toasters. Notice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days.
Now this is interesting. I have a few questions on this very subject:
zugmann CNSF I imagine it would be an incremental process that could take decades to fully play out. Also what do we do with industries that have many tracks, spots, and switches? I guess they'll ahve to build a departure track and invest in trackmobiles. They probably won't be keen on railcars moving around their properties with nobody on them, either.
CNSF I imagine it would be an incremental process that could take decades to fully play out.
Is there anyone "on" those railcars at the customer site today, or is it just a guy on the ground with a beltpack operating the locomotive remotely? It wouldn't be that different, really, except you do away with the locomotive, and whoever is moving the cars around (think model railroad here) could be in a nice climate-controlled office equipped with camera feeds. And what would the departure track be used for? Wouldn't each car just be sent off on its way whenever its ready to go?
CNSFIs there anyone "on" those railcars at the customer site today, or is it just a guy on the ground with a beltpack operating the locomotive remotely? It wouldn't be that different, really, except you do away with the locomotive, and whoever is moving the cars around (think model railroad here) could be in a nice climate-controlled office equipped with camera feeds. And what would the departure track be used for? Wouldn't each car just be sent off on its way whenever its ready to go?
Still lots of engineer-conductor crews working locals. Even if it's remote, you still have someone lining railroad, spotting cars, doing intraplant switching, etc.
How's the empty LPG car supposed to get from it's spot 6 deep on a siding, through 10 switches, open the gate, and go find the jockey truck driver to move that trailer parked on the siding, move that piece of pipe someone dropped in the flangeway, etc, to get to the main? Model RRing doesn't always capture all these fun aspects of industrial switching.
That doesn't even begin to answer the question of who is going to pay for all this technology. Somehow I don't think that small farm supply place that is getting end-of-life hoppers for potash is going to be ready to help pay for $2million+ railcars or wire their sidings up for this level of technology.
I'm not saying that this may not be the reality in the future, but I have my doubts we will see it in our lifetimes.
RailRoader608 Now this is interesting. I have a few questions on this very subject: When you say carload shipments are as good as dead, is that referring to boxcars loaded with pallets as opposed to say, intermodal containers? Do essentially all finished goods on the rails move via intermodal containers because those don't get humped? Is it a generally accepted fact that rail does more damage to freight than trucking? And, if so, is that mostly (entirely?) due to railcars slamming into one another at 4mph at hump yards? Is there a whole market of more delicate stuff that just doesn't consider rail for this reason? [I've suspected this is true about rail being more damaging but there's not a lot of research out there about it] If railroads are really this damaging, do the finished goods that do move via intermodal containers require more packaging/protection than those goods moved via truck? In other words, if a container is moving via truck instead of rail do they go in and start strapping things down more and adding styrofoam blocks? If true this additional expense in time, money, and materials doesn't do rail any favors in its competition with trucking, huh? And finally, are these extra opportunities for damage exclusive to hump yards? Do flat yards with motive power moving the blocks around bang train sets together with as much force?
The questions you raise would be a good subject for a whole new thread. I'll try to be brief.
- Damage is definitely one reason many finished goods have shifted from boxcar to container. There are several others - transit time, schedule reliability, end loading is better than side loading, higher freight dock productivity, etc. etc.
- 'Rail' doesn't necessarily do more damage than trucking. In the rail environment, you have to protect against lateral (end to end) impact - which is caused by either humping or careless flat switching. The forces involved can be substantial. In trucking, you have to guard more against vertical movement - either the sudden shock of hitting a pothole or going over a curb, or a more constant bouncing or vibration that can cause damage by repeated rubbing. So you load differently for each mode. And if it's going intermodal you generally load as you would for truck (see next point).
- Modern intermodal ride quality is often actually better than either carload or truck, because there's very little vertical movement on the rail, and switching of loaded intermodal cars is minimal at most. Many intermodal trains run intact, ramp to ramp, with no switching of loaded cars at all. This is one of the factors that sold JB Hunt on rail, and which helped power their rapid growth. That's not to say intermodal is bulletproof - you sure don't want the lift going wrong!
- Flat switching gives an engineer and ground crew a shot at outperforming an automated, computerized hump, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will.
zugmann I'm not saying that this may not be the reality in the future, but I have my doubts we will see it in our lifetimes.
Yeah, you're probably right about that, for the same reason that trucks didn't take over from boxcar overnight. The current infrastructure is optimized for the current technology, and the type of changes we're talking about are more likely to be incorporated only in brand-new facilities rather than retrofitted into existing ones.
By the way, where did you get the $2Million price figure for the automated railcar? Is that how much a semi tractor plus trailer goes for these days?
CNSFBy the way, where did you get the $2Million price figure for the automated railcar? Is that how much a semi tractor plus trailer goes for these days?
That was the cost of a new locomotive a few years ago (probably double that now).
zugmann CNSF By the way, where did you get the $2Million price figure for the automated railcar? Is that how much a semi tractor plus trailer goes for these days? That was the cost of a new locomotive a few years ago (probably double that now).
CNSF By the way, where did you get the $2Million price figure for the automated railcar? Is that how much a semi tractor plus trailer goes for these days?
I don't see why an autonomous railcar would cost more than an autonomous truck. But who knows how much that would be? Maybe, by the time they get there, it would be $10 million with inflation.
CNSF I don't see why an autonomous railcar would cost more than an autonomous truck. But who knows how much that would be? Maybe, by the time they get there, it would be $10 million with inflation.
We can agree more than an old ex-Penn Central hopper.
zugmann CNSF I don't see why an autonomous railcar would cost more than an autonomous truck. But who knows how much that would be? Maybe, by the time they get there, it would be $10 million with inflation. We can agree more than an old ex-Penn Central hopper.
I can see it now: the original prototype test car actually is an old ex-PC hopper, with a futuristic iPhone in a retrofitted DeLorean bolted to it. And it can travel back in time to avoid demurrage charges!
OK, I'd better sign off now. It's getting late and I think I'm nearing my tequila limit. Thanks for engaging, it's been a fun discussion!
The shipper will just love it when the autonomous railcar arrives at their plant with bits of rotting deer guts plastered all over the front! And in a significant part of the continent they will have winter to contend with. Might have trouble bucking snowdrifts. Empty movements may not have the necessary weight to stay on the rails through an iced up flangeway.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.