BaltACD What is the power source for all the autonomous rail cars? What is the cost of the autonomous rail cars?
What is the power source for all the autonomous rail cars? What is the cost of the autonomous rail cars?
See "Autonomous Trucks". I'm just saying that if one, then the other. If Autonomous Trucks never become both operationally and financially feasible, then forget about autonomous railcars.
^^^ Nice of you to do that but it is also illegal to cut and paste paid for content to an area that can be publicly accessed.
There's a timely article in the WSJ about automation of the US railroads. I've saved the article into four JPGs so everyone can read it
http://i.imgur.com/LD8XKsR.jpeg
http://i.imgur.com/8yyJR6M.jpeg
http://i.imgur.com/Mz7CQ6N.jpeg
http://i.imgur.com/6m7Y7ly.jpeg
And here's the article on WSJ: American Railways Chug Towards Automation
We have been led to believe that a culture of self-driving, electric cars is right around the corner. It is one of the several new utopian visions coming at us these days. Apparently the trucking industry has bought the hype because they too use highway vehicles. So railroads are eyeing this trend and starting to feel like they have to do something to keep up with the automation of trucking, or they will be left behind.
Actually, I believe railroads will be the first to automate running because they already own self-guiding track, which is a key advantage in automating vehicles. Also, they don’t have to share their running with trucks and cars. But, unlike the nimbleness of self-driving trucks, self-driving trains will be first to show up as the longest and heaviest unit trains as exemplified with Rio Tinto.
Self-driving cars and trucks will have to wait until we improve their guidance by making extensive modification to their roadways.
The self-driving railcars are an attempt to give rail the same advantage as trucks in being autonomous. But self-driving railcars come with the basic disadvantage of needing railroad tracks, which are not necessary for single railcar loads competing with single loads in truck trailers on roads.
That's the big reason Autonomous OTR trucks are not going to be hitting the roads soon. Estimated cost for one is coming in right at 1 million bucks plus their software can not refuel the truck know how to respond to bad weather an accident or open or close the doors of the trailer. Even with the wages we pay here with the benefits included we still come out over 400 grand ahead over one automated truck just in captial outlay alone.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The shipper will just love it when the autonomous railcar arrives at their plant with bits of rotting deer guts plastered all over the front! And in a significant part of the continent they will have winter to contend with. Might have trouble bucking snowdrifts. Empty movements may not have the necessary weight to stay on the rails through an iced up flangeway.
zugmann CNSF I don't see why an autonomous railcar would cost more than an autonomous truck. But who knows how much that would be? Maybe, by the time they get there, it would be $10 million with inflation. We can agree more than an old ex-Penn Central hopper.
CNSF I don't see why an autonomous railcar would cost more than an autonomous truck. But who knows how much that would be? Maybe, by the time they get there, it would be $10 million with inflation.
We can agree more than an old ex-Penn Central hopper.
I can see it now: the original prototype test car actually is an old ex-PC hopper, with a futuristic iPhone in a retrofitted DeLorean bolted to it. And it can travel back in time to avoid demurrage charges!
OK, I'd better sign off now. It's getting late and I think I'm nearing my tequila limit. Thanks for engaging, it's been a fun discussion!
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann CNSF By the way, where did you get the $2Million price figure for the automated railcar? Is that how much a semi tractor plus trailer goes for these days? That was the cost of a new locomotive a few years ago (probably double that now).
CNSF By the way, where did you get the $2Million price figure for the automated railcar? Is that how much a semi tractor plus trailer goes for these days?
That was the cost of a new locomotive a few years ago (probably double that now).
I don't see why an autonomous railcar would cost more than an autonomous truck. But who knows how much that would be? Maybe, by the time they get there, it would be $10 million with inflation.
CNSFBy the way, where did you get the $2Million price figure for the automated railcar? Is that how much a semi tractor plus trailer goes for these days?
zugmann I'm not saying that this may not be the reality in the future, but I have my doubts we will see it in our lifetimes.
I'm not saying that this may not be the reality in the future, but I have my doubts we will see it in our lifetimes.
Yeah, you're probably right about that, for the same reason that trucks didn't take over from boxcar overnight. The current infrastructure is optimized for the current technology, and the type of changes we're talking about are more likely to be incorporated only in brand-new facilities rather than retrofitted into existing ones.
By the way, where did you get the $2Million price figure for the automated railcar? Is that how much a semi tractor plus trailer goes for these days?
RailRoader608 Now this is interesting. I have a few questions on this very subject: When you say carload shipments are as good as dead, is that referring to boxcars loaded with pallets as opposed to say, intermodal containers? Do essentially all finished goods on the rails move via intermodal containers because those don't get humped? Is it a generally accepted fact that rail does more damage to freight than trucking? And, if so, is that mostly (entirely?) due to railcars slamming into one another at 4mph at hump yards? Is there a whole market of more delicate stuff that just doesn't consider rail for this reason? [I've suspected this is true about rail being more damaging but there's not a lot of research out there about it] If railroads are really this damaging, do the finished goods that do move via intermodal containers require more packaging/protection than those goods moved via truck? In other words, if a container is moving via truck instead of rail do they go in and start strapping things down more and adding styrofoam blocks? If true this additional expense in time, money, and materials doesn't do rail any favors in its competition with trucking, huh? And finally, are these extra opportunities for damage exclusive to hump yards? Do flat yards with motive power moving the blocks around bang train sets together with as much force?
Now this is interesting. I have a few questions on this very subject:
The questions you raise would be a good subject for a whole new thread. I'll try to be brief.
- Damage is definitely one reason many finished goods have shifted from boxcar to container. There are several others - transit time, schedule reliability, end loading is better than side loading, higher freight dock productivity, etc. etc.
- 'Rail' doesn't necessarily do more damage than trucking. In the rail environment, you have to protect against lateral (end to end) impact - which is caused by either humping or careless flat switching. The forces involved can be substantial. In trucking, you have to guard more against vertical movement - either the sudden shock of hitting a pothole or going over a curb, or a more constant bouncing or vibration that can cause damage by repeated rubbing. So you load differently for each mode. And if it's going intermodal you generally load as you would for truck (see next point).
- Modern intermodal ride quality is often actually better than either carload or truck, because there's very little vertical movement on the rail, and switching of loaded intermodal cars is minimal at most. Many intermodal trains run intact, ramp to ramp, with no switching of loaded cars at all. This is one of the factors that sold JB Hunt on rail, and which helped power their rapid growth. That's not to say intermodal is bulletproof - you sure don't want the lift going wrong!
- Flat switching gives an engineer and ground crew a shot at outperforming an automated, computerized hump, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will.
CNSFIs there anyone "on" those railcars at the customer site today, or is it just a guy on the ground with a beltpack operating the locomotive remotely? It wouldn't be that different, really, except you do away with the locomotive, and whoever is moving the cars around (think model railroad here) could be in a nice climate-controlled office equipped with camera feeds. And what would the departure track be used for? Wouldn't each car just be sent off on its way whenever its ready to go?
Still lots of engineer-conductor crews working locals. Even if it's remote, you still have someone lining railroad, spotting cars, doing intraplant switching, etc.
How's the empty LPG car supposed to get from it's spot 6 deep on a siding, through 10 switches, open the gate, and go find the jockey truck driver to move that trailer parked on the siding, move that piece of pipe someone dropped in the flangeway, etc, to get to the main? Model RRing doesn't always capture all these fun aspects of industrial switching.
That doesn't even begin to answer the question of who is going to pay for all this technology. Somehow I don't think that small farm supply place that is getting end-of-life hoppers for potash is going to be ready to help pay for $2million+ railcars or wire their sidings up for this level of technology.
zugmann CNSF I imagine it would be an incremental process that could take decades to fully play out. Also what do we do with industries that have many tracks, spots, and switches? I guess they'll ahve to build a departure track and invest in trackmobiles. They probably won't be keen on railcars moving around their properties with nobody on them, either.
CNSF I imagine it would be an incremental process that could take decades to fully play out.
Also what do we do with industries that have many tracks, spots, and switches? I guess they'll ahve to build a departure track and invest in trackmobiles. They probably won't be keen on railcars moving around their properties with nobody on them, either.
Is there anyone "on" those railcars at the customer site today, or is it just a guy on the ground with a beltpack operating the locomotive remotely? It wouldn't be that different, really, except you do away with the locomotive, and whoever is moving the cars around (think model railroad here) could be in a nice climate-controlled office equipped with camera feeds. And what would the departure track be used for? Wouldn't each car just be sent off on its way whenever its ready to go?
oltmanndCarload shipment of finished manufactured goods is as good as dead. One main reason? Switching. 4 mph impacts can break a lot of toasters. Notice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days.
Notice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days.
Murphy Siding SD70Dude BaltACD oltmannd Notice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days. Mostly because they are 'long' cars that have wide swinging drawbars and couplers that will very likely bypass when attempting to couple and create a derailment on the track(s) they were switched to. A typical day at the Symington (Winnipeg) hump. Look what's about to go over: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MTIAjB7qoNc/V9hd8u68d0I/AAAAAAAAyxE/Uaa9ApXB6YE7BhQ2wfXR96USGXYLN1FCgCLcB/s1600/7522%2B7511%2BWinnipeg%2B20160903%2BSLB.jpg Hey- thats my wood in the foreground! Tolko oriented strand board and West Fraser framing lumber. We've received lumber cars that have been banged around enough that most of the lumber had shifted.
SD70Dude BaltACD oltmannd Notice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days. Mostly because they are 'long' cars that have wide swinging drawbars and couplers that will very likely bypass when attempting to couple and create a derailment on the track(s) they were switched to. A typical day at the Symington (Winnipeg) hump. Look what's about to go over: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MTIAjB7qoNc/V9hd8u68d0I/AAAAAAAAyxE/Uaa9ApXB6YE7BhQ2wfXR96USGXYLN1FCgCLcB/s1600/7522%2B7511%2BWinnipeg%2B20160903%2BSLB.jpg
BaltACD oltmannd Notice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days. Mostly because they are 'long' cars that have wide swinging drawbars and couplers that will very likely bypass when attempting to couple and create a derailment on the track(s) they were switched to.
oltmannd Notice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days.
Mostly because they are 'long' cars that have wide swinging drawbars and couplers that will very likely bypass when attempting to couple and create a derailment on the track(s) they were switched to.
A typical day at the Symington (Winnipeg) hump. Look what's about to go over:
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MTIAjB7qoNc/V9hd8u68d0I/AAAAAAAAyxE/Uaa9ApXB6YE7BhQ2wfXR96USGXYLN1FCgCLcB/s1600/7522%2B7511%2BWinnipeg%2B20160903%2BSLB.jpg
Hey- thats my wood in the foreground! Tolko oriented strand board and West Fraser framing lumber. We've received lumber cars that have been banged around enough that most of the lumber had shifted.
Sorry, I'll try to be gentle next time!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
CNSFI imagine it would be an incremental process that could take decades to fully play out.
jeffhergert On the major lanes I would think you would need two sets of tracks for both directions with possibly more crossovers to allow traffic to go around robot cars that have broken down. Or those which can't or won't run as fast. (All traffic will move as fast as the slowest vehicle if one can't easily pass another.) And since these cars are now without a person on board, wouldn't almost every switch on the rail system need to be powered? I would expect as a robot car approached a junction, it would tell the switch (by radio) which route it needed to use. The switch would then line itself accordingly. We won't discuss, for now, who will operate the switch if for some reason it fails to line or lock up. Jeff
On the major lanes I would think you would need two sets of tracks for both directions with possibly more crossovers to allow traffic to go around robot cars that have broken down. Or those which can't or won't run as fast. (All traffic will move as fast as the slowest vehicle if one can't easily pass another.)
And since these cars are now without a person on board, wouldn't almost every switch on the rail system need to be powered? I would expect as a robot car approached a junction, it would tell the switch (by radio) which route it needed to use. The switch would then line itself accordingly. We won't discuss, for now, who will operate the switch if for some reason it fails to line or lock up.
Jeff
You're right, all the traffic would be moving at the same speed, as if on a conveyor belt, and all the switches would need to be powered. Also, single track mainlines would be doable, but inefficient, as traffic would have to be bunched together and "fleeted" over the sections between sidings - so a lot of stopping and waiting. In that case you'd still have the look and feel of a train, only it would be made up of whatever traffic is at hand, kind of like when a road is down to one lane due to construction or whatever. I suspect we'd see a lot of new double track.
A breakdown could delay scores of shipments, but then again, isn't that what happens today when one car in a 10,000-foot train goes bad order?
It's interesting to think about how the rail network might be reconfigured to be optimized for autonomous railcars, and how the transition from the status quo would play out. I imagine it would be an incremental process that could take decades to fully play out.
CNSFHmm, good question. My initial reaction is that I'm not sure you would need a separate ROW, unless you want to run the single or smaller-group shipments at a much faster speed than the big unit trains. I doubt that would be necessary though, since you're already saving so much time by not having those smaller lots sitting around in yards waiting to be aggregated into a big train, waiting for connections, etc.
oltmanndNotice there is no humping of autorack or IM cars in the railroad world these days.
Carload shipment of finished manufactured goods is as good as dead. One main reason? Switching. 4 mph impacts can break a lot of toasters.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Euclid What is it about PSR that customers don't like?
What is it about PSR that customers don't like?
For one, having their arm twisted to be open to 24/7 service when they'd prefer M-F 8AM to 4PM...with demurage changes to match.
Lack of service if their local customers. Being charged higher rates if they refuse to provide the same amount of loads everyday higher demurrage rates when the railroad misses their own switch times. Then throw in if your a smaller customer like my boss is on his resins they might just say sorry your not worth the effort anymore to even service and refuse to even switch you. We average 10 cars each week with the BNSF and worry if they went to PSR if that would be enough. Salic Plastics one of our larger OTR customers in Ottawa just north of us was required to ship 30 a day for CSX to keep servicing them. They were only shipping on average 25 a day. US Silica was told 40 a day or loose their shipping on CSX when EHH took over. That give you an idea on why customers hate PSR.
Murphy siding part of your problem might be what your shipper or their broker is offering to pay for those loads. SE South Dakota is not exactly a hotbed of outbound Flatbed loads. Most of the time out of there they have a 3-400 mile deadhead to a better lane of freight. Now if it comes in on a reefer they can get stuff quicker outbound.
The biggest issue facing the railroads force marching themselves on the alter of EHH towards PSR and to hell what it does to customer relations. Just keep driving them away to the point that unless they do trainloads a week you won't do business with them. Sooner or later the STB will get involved again and look out when they do. The carnage will be massive and the railroads will be going oh crap.
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