daveklepperFurther is there a possiblity of a shipper that woiuld make use of freight service?
About the only outgoing industry in the Adirondacks is forest products - and I'm not sure there's enough business there for any significant traffic.
Incoming would chiefly be consumer goods, and then mostly fuel. Again, I suspect there's no one commodity that would warrant car load service, much less train load.
And I'm sure that shipping hazmat through the forest would encounter enormous opposition.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
So I should not mention the possibility of freight service in my letter to the Gov.?
But here is a question: Which group is more likely to leave litter behind or do other damage to the environment: A group of passengers in an air-conditined train withdoors closed and fixed windows (retention johns of course) or the same number walking on a trail?
daveklepperWhich group is more likely to leave litter behind or do other damage to the environment: A group of passengers in an air-conditined train withdoors closed and fixed windows (retention johns of course) or the same number walking on a trail?
To which one might add: which group is more likely to damage or vandalize adjacent property, including theft or 'offenses to the person'?
If I were doing this, I would likely ensure that the Governor make ARTA (or whatever consortium of agencies including snowmobilers 'administers' the prospective trail) fully financially responsible for all actions arising out of the trail's construction, maintenance, operation or promotion. That certainly seems fair to me, considering that the vast majority of New York State taxpayers derive little if any positive benefit from this particular trail segment (an argument that has been, as I recall, repeatedly raised by the anti-railroad side).
I don't think the cost issues have been made entirely clear to the Governor's staff, particularly the claim repeatedly asserted by ARTA that 'the scrap will pay for much of the trail conversion'. I think it should be formalized that ARTA, and perhaps Lee Keet in particular with an enforceable PG, should be wholly responsible for the trail conversion cost above and beyond what they have forecast, and that they should be wholly responsible for negotiating the removal and conversion of railroad material and conveying the full value to the State as part of the trail construction process. That would quickly establish who is lying and who might have other agendas, I think.
I wouldn't mention freight service at all. Completely aside from the lack of prospective customers, it has all the drawbacks of current passenger operations and few, if any, of the actual advantages. At the anticipated scale, I'd suspect there are few if any actual environmental advantages to rail service with anything more than something like modified Brandt units, and (as with RailRunners) the cost and maintenance of specialized equipment would rapidly exceed any rational profit from the attempt.
Instead I would look at some of the available private options, such as installing Amazon Lockers somewhere in the consist or providing a small form of M&E on specific trips that provides some amenities both to 'locals' and to tourists in the area whether or not they ride the train. Those represent a 'leveraging' of the train service at tolerable and controllable marginal cost.
Miningman Not Good News.......... Friday Dec 14 "On Friday, the agency board voted to change its land use master plan to allow, but not require, the removal of rails along part of a 119-mile, state-owned rail line between Utica and Lake Placid." https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Adirondack-rail-trail-plan-gets-revival-boost-13466987.php
FTL:"...This is a fix that remedies an error, and is good news that is long overdue," said Lee Keet, treasurer of the Adirondack Rail Trail Advocates, a not-for-profit advocacy group that backs the trail plan.
Keet said the APA move allows the state Environmental Conservation and Transportation departments to resubmit an already-approved plan to remove some tracks for the recreational trail.
DEC Commissioner Basil Seggos said the APA action will allow his agency "to improve and enhance these critical travel corridors to accommodate and support increased recreational use that will boost regional economies in a manner that is protective of this precious natural resource..."
Certainly, seems as if this is a 'happy dance' by the 'trail advocacy group(?)". The whole article seems to present the side of the trail advocacy group; while giving ASR sort of a head fake, and slap to their operations(?). One thing about it, when the ASR is cut back, and the ROW 'cleared'; it will become patentlty obvious to the whole area that its loss will never be made up by the so called, trail advocates.
Here is the letter, planjed on mailing this afternoon:
David Lloyd ben Yaacov Yehuda Klepper, student of the Yeshiva and USA Army veteran, co-author, Worship Space Acoustics, J. Ross, Publishers, Fort Lauderdale, FL, 2010, jrosspub.com, SB, MIT, '53, SM, MIT, '57. Fellow, Acoustical Society of America and Audio Engineering Society, founding member, Institute of Noise Control Engineering. Former President, Electric Railroadersm's Association and continued .member of other railroad and transit interest organizations. Former member, Executive Board, American Guild of Organist New York City Chapter, Member, Israel Acoustical Society American Legion Member
Please consider writing your own letter!
Blue pencil - ARTA vs AETA in your last full paragraph.
Otherwise, it looks good.
You might consider some research into the problems the Appalachin Trail is encountering and project them onto this proposed trail as well.
Wonderful letter David, my compliments!
One thing I'd add if I were you is a mention on the acoustical and electrical engineering business you had. Governor Cuomo may have heard of it and it just may trigger a memory of you. Couldn't hurt.
1. I do not wish to appear to expect to derive any economic gain thourgh my letter.
2. It was sent, with the one Dislexic spelling error, and now it is your turn to send letters, possibly also to newspapers, with your own ideas included.
samfp1943 Miningman Not Good News.......... Friday Dec 14 "On Friday, the agency board voted to change its land use master plan to allow, but not require, the removal of rails along part of a 119-mile, state-owned rail line between Utica and Lake Placid." https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Adirondack-rail-trail-plan-gets-revival-boost-13466987.php The following is from the above linked site by Miningman. FTL:"...This is a fix that remedies an error, and is good news that is long overdue," said Lee Keet, treasurer of the Adirondack Rail Trail Advocates, a not-for-profit advocacy group that backs the trail plan. Keet said the APA move allows the state Environmental Conservation and Transportation departments to resubmit an already-approved plan to remove some tracks for the recreational trail. DEC Commissioner Basil Seggos said the APA action will allow his agency "to improve and enhance these critical travel corridors to accommodate and support increased recreational use that will boost regional economies in a manner that is protective of this precious natural resource..." Certainly, seems as if this is a 'happy dance' by the 'trail advocacy group(?)". The whole article seems to present the side of the trail advocacy group; while giving ASR sort of a head fake, and slap to their operations(?). One thing about it, when the ASR is cut back, and the ROW 'cleared'; it will become patentlty obvious to the whole area that its loss will never be made up by the so called, trail advocates.
The following is from the above linked site by Miningman.
The "trail advocates" still aren't happy - they want it all gone.
At this point, it comes down to money and political influence. The railroad lacks both. Legal challenges are expensive and what money the railroad does have is better spent on maintenance and upgrades of the equipment. Most of the last legal challenge (which was successful) was paid for through donations.
It's clear that the "trail advocates" have the governor's ear - and it's said that nothing happens in NY State unless it comes from the governor's office.
Unless someone has, say, $100 million to put into rehabbing the corridor, it sounds like this will be the solution for now, and once the tracks come up, they'll never go back down again - there are plenty of groups who will ensure that.
While the snowmobilers and hikers may be rejoicing, I would opine that they will soon be cursing - their much coveted trail will never happen. There are groups waiting in the wings to ensure that, too.
tree68 The "trail advocates" still aren't happy - they want it all gone. At this point, it comes down to money and political influence. The railroad lacks both. Legal challenges are expensive and what money the railroad does have is better spent on maintenance and upgrades of the equipment. Most of the last legal challenge (which was successful) was paid for through donations. It's clear that the "trail advocates" have the governor's ear - and it's said that nothing happens in NY State unless it comes from the governor's office. Unless someone has, say, $100 million to put into rehabbing the corridor, it sounds like this will be the solution for now, and once the tracks come up, they'll never go back down again - there are plenty of groups who will ensure that. While the snowmobilers and hikers may be rejoicing, I would opine that they will soon be cursing - their much coveted trail will never happen. There are groups waiting in the wings to ensure that, too.
The new, and more important than it looks, twist is that all the 'material' lifted from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid will be available for rehab of the Remsen-Tupper route. The ARTA lie about 'scrap will pay for the trail' is gone.
We will certainly see who and what comes out of the woodwork once the first rail is lifted. As I said on RyPN, I hope their present 'transit corridor' definition holds up better than its predecessor...
Is this about trackage that is north of where the trains now run? Is that track currently in useable, or nearly usable shape?
My uhderstanding, from previous postings and threads, is it can be used for extremely slow equipment moves and for actual movement of people by track-speeder. Needs a lot of work. Not sure if conditions have worsened.
Lithonia Operator Is this about trackage that is north of where the trains now run? Is that track currently in useable, or nearly usable shape?
The out-of-service track has a speed limit of 10 MPH, and that often with a certain amount of caution...
It's good enough to ferry the equipment when necessary.
That said, what's needed all through that section is ties - probably 2000 per mile, and in some areas a considerable amount of stone ballast, as the cinders that still exist in some sections are getting tired...
I sure hope it can be preserved, and you can someday have trains runing there regularly.
If the track was fixed, how long would it take the tourist train to get from Utica to Lake Placid? You run 30 mph tops, right?
Lithonia OperatorIf the track was fixed, how long would it take the tourist train to get from Utica to Lake Placid? You run 30 mph tops, right?
Forty, actually, although the section from Otter Lake to Thendara needs surfacing to get it back up there. We have one section good for 45.
Getting a round trip out of one crew would be a concern - forty would easily allow that. The Central ran the line at fifty, as evidenced by the superelevation in some curves.
The scenery along the line is great, but running through at at 45 wouldn't detract from that.
It takes us one hour to Remsen on the shortline. Not likely we can improve on that.
Remsen to Tupper is 84 miles, or a little over two hours averaging 40. Factoring in a station stop in Thendara and any possible slow orders would bring that to three hours, for a total four hour trip one way. Give an hour to "turn" the train (move the motive power to the other end of the train) and we've still got an nine hour trip. Crews can only work 12 hours.
It might be desirable to hold longer in Tupper if suitable activities can be arranged, like a trip to the Wild Center.
Losing the 34 miles between Tupper and Lake Placid denies riders the opportunity to travel to Lake Placid - more of a "name" destination" than Tupper Lake.
samfp1943A news release announcing the filing of an amended Unit Management Plan for the Remsen-Lake Placid Travel Corridor did contain an unexpected portion: a quote from Adirondack Railway Preservation Society President Bill Branson, supporting the plan. The society oversees the Adirondack Scenic Railroad, which operates on the state-owned tracks. A successful lawsuit filed by ASR in 2017 prevented the previous state plan to remove the tracks from proceeding..."
Tree, why is the rail preservation president now endorsing the north end rail removal? Wasn't that your busiest section?
MidlandMikeTree, why is the rail preservation president now endorsing the north end rail removal? Wasn't that your busiest section?
Can't say as I know, but I would suspect that at this point it's a matter of we'll take what we can get. Keep in mind that the "trail advocates" still want the rails gone all the way to Remsen. If we can get trains to Tupper Lake we should see the potential for the line and make it that much harder for the rail foes to advocate for further removals.
Business at the north end was steady, but on a par with the south end and Thendara.
I'm quite sure we could do a good business going all the way to Lake Placid, and I'm hopeful that having a less-famous terminus won't hurt that too badly.
During the summer of 1980 the Adirondack Railway (operator of the trains for the Olympics) logged 16,000 boardings with nothing to go on but a trip from Utica to Lake Placid. I'm sure that number could be duplicated today.
In fact, I'd opine that if it were not for reported management issues (some of which led to safety issues), ASRR wouldn't exist today, as the Adirondack Railway would still be running.
The Saranac-Lake Placid section was already in operation and in a relativly built up area for the Adirondacks. The Tupper-Big Moose section is out of service and in relative wilderness. The trail and wilderness advocates are just getting started. New York will just see the outcry against rehabing that section, and will use that as an excuse to not spend the money. Look what is happening to the Tahawas-Saratoga line.
My post a year ago should have indicated that ARTA is not going to ultimately try to 'get everyone out of our woods.' No matter how many times that is said doesn't make it true.
There was no group that "fought" the restoration for the 1980 Olympics. The Adirondack Railway thought they could restore the tracks for much less that the original estimates, but ultimately they ended up with an unsafe railroad that was shut down half-way through the summer. And it was not a major part of transportation for the Olympics. The Lake Placid Olympic Museum (which has no stake in this debate) estimates 450,000 people came through Lake Placid during those two weeks. The railroad carried 4,500 according the the manager at the time.
The tracks north of Big Moose can no longer carry even an equipment move. In fact, last season the NYS DOT had to come in and fix some washouts so that snowmobiles could traverse the corridor. The snowmobilers are well aware of the problems, but have been told by DOT that they are not allowed on the corridor until December 1 when their seasonal contract starts. NYS DOT says that the ASR is the only "contractor" authorized to work on the corridor. Except that ASR isn't working on it even though they will suposedly one day be able to again run trains to Tupper Lake.
Tree 68 has confirmed that it would be about four hours to get from Utica to Tupper Lake. Add another 1-1/2 hours (including stops at Lake Clear and Saranac Lake) to get to Lake Placid, making it a 5-1/2 hour trip. Now getting to Utica by rail takes four hours from NYC and two hours from Albany making for a 7-1/2 -9-1/2 hour trip to Lake Placid. Drive time is five hours and two hours respectively from those locations. Given that most visits to Lake Placid are 2, 3 or 4-day "getaways", spending the better part of a day each way on the train is just not a service that many would ever even consider - let alone choose.
The 60-mile tourist ride to Big Moose (where there are no attractions) is by far the longest tourist ride in the East, but the railroad has only made a dozen or so fall foliage runs that far each of the past two years. ARTA has maintained from the outset that we do not want to remove the rails between Thendara and Remsen, thus preserving a 50-mile tourist ride with the option for a boat cruise on the Fulton Chain during the layover at Thendara. Some snowmobilers from south of Thendara have called for removal of the tracks all the way to Remsen. ARTA does not support this. We therefore feel this is actually a compromise - even if few others reading this would agree.
So now after ARTA has fought and convinced the State to remove the Tupper-Lake Placid tracks, they now want to remove the Thendara-Tupper tracks?
I think the railroad has a good case. Real restoration of both freight and passenger service to Saranak Lake and Lake Placid would be of greater benefit than any scenic trail, which would both benefit far fewer people and also make for additional danger of litter and even fire. But the railroad has to get its act together. Is it currently a common carrier or just a tourist railroad? If the latter it has to secure funding and make all the necessary moves to become a common carrier, with definite plans to develop a transloading facility and even an intermodal terminal to serve the Lake Placid - Saranac Lake area on land it owns. It will then have a case for being part of the nationwide freight network, even with its own operations confined to New York State. In that case, ripping up the tracks can be shown to be against the national interest, and the STB can intervene.
The Adirondack Scenic Railroad owns zero track. The entire ROW (except the Mohawk, Adirondack & Northern - a short line) is owned and controlled by New York State, with the Scenic as the operator.
The Scenic gets to run trains in the summer. In the winter it's a snowmobile trail.
As such, the Adirondack's operations are subject to political whim. Given the pushback IP has seen with the Saratoga & North Creek, I seriously doubt that freight operations are a realistic option, no matter who the operator (which would likely be MHWA).
In other words, there are no businesses in the combined commounities of Sadanac Lake and Lake Placid that would benefit from rail freight service or there are too few and no possibilities for increzase?
daveklepper In other words, there are no businesses in the combined commounities of Saranac Lake and Lake Placid that would benefit from rail freight service or there are too few and no possibilities for increase?
In other words, there are no businesses in the combined commounities of Saranac Lake and Lake Placid that would benefit from rail freight service or there are too few and no possibilities for increase?
Development is tightly controlled in the Adirondack Park. They've been trying to get a resort off the ground in Tupper Lake for a number of years and have experienced significant pushback.
I heard of a fellow who caught grief for the color of his steel roof (red) even though it could only be seen from the air, and then just barely.
The railroad is limited to cutting fallen trees back to clear the ROW. After the derecho of 1995 there was a lot of lumber blown down to the ground. Loggers were not allowed to pull it from the forest, where it lays to this day, rotting away.
Any new industry that requires rail service will likely see similar pushback.
Any need for rail freight would be limited to those consumers/industries already extant, and aside from fuel, there wouldn't much call for rail service quantities.
Lumbering isn't the major industry it once was. There were numerous businesses and institutions that got coal - that's gone. Even fuel now arrives in 9,000 gallon tanker trucks, minimizing the need for railroad tank car quantities.
The motto for the Adirondack Park is "Forever Wild," and there are those who take this motto to heart.
Mention of the Saratoga and North Creek is instructive. They wanted to haul out tailings from Tahawas mine, which would probably have made it easier to reclaim that mine. Still the forever wild people wanted none of it. CP killed the project because apparently they didn't think the Saratoga-Albany short haul was worth it. They started to store oil tank cars to get some income for that unused track which really upset the locals. Snowmobilers were not happy that snow trains precluded their use of the ROW.
MidlandMikeSo now after ARTA has fought and convinced the State to remove the Tupper-Lake Placid tracks, they now want to remove the Thendara-Tupper tracks?
Won't be happening.
What is new is that the state will be prioritizing restoration of the track to Tupper Lake, and from what I understand using the entire 'product' of track lifting to help restore and maintain the whole of the route the ASR operates over. No longer is that ARTA-promoted scam about 'the trail will pay for itself out of the scrap value' in play ... which I think is a good thing for both the rail and trail proponents in the long run.
If I recall correctly, Tupper Lake is strong on having active train service (they expensively renovated their 'station facility' a decade ago) while Saranac Lake is right up there with Tenafly in the 'couldn't care less' category. So having Tupper and their new 'gaming attractions' or whatever be a logical endpoint for ASR-style service makes good sense, whereas giving communities further north 'access to the general system of transportation' when they already see insular service as an intrusion is... not something their democracy is going to particularly value. (Tupper signed one of those suspiciously-similarly-worded town resolutions to have the trail ... but they are in the position of having both EOT for the rail attraction and the trailhead.)
When the forever-wilders come out of the woodwork to interrupt the trail conversion, we'll see how much crawfishing to restore rail service results, but frankly I'll settle for assured high quality service to Tupper Lake in the meantime.
INCIDENTALLY: isn't it interesting you haven't seen anything about Bill Branson saying he was misquoted in that article?
He says this ... via link to the NYCSHS Web site Nov 23, or I wouldn't have known, even from RyPN:
We write to clarify recent news coverage and provide a balance to the announcement by the NYS Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) of its new “rail trail” plan to amend the 1996 Remsen-Lake Placid Unit Management Plan, the plan that is the governing document for the transportation corridor. Since December 2018, members of the executive committee of the Board of ARPS have met often with NYS officials to plan all the elements of the upgrade to Tupper Lake first announced by Governor Cuomo in May 2016. In early November the ASR was informed an announcement by DEC was forthcoming that would support the upgrade and we were asked for a supportive comment to be included in the press release – the comment provided is about the upgrade, not the rail trail. There has been no settlement. Any such reference is not accurate. The railroad was seriously misled. Media outlets have been provided all the facts of the ASR position during the past five years. The ASR won the case at the Supreme Court and it is NYS agencies that have to comply with their laws. The proposed plan must comply with the September 2017 ruling by Judge Main. The ASR reserves the option to again pursue legal action. The announcement last week by the DEC and the presentation to the Adirondack Park Agency continues the misguided effort that seeks to deprive the communities of Saranac Lake and Lake Placid of a direct connection to the national rail network. The process is now underway with public hearings. ARPS Board members will attend the hearings to gather information and listen to comments from the public. Written comments will be provided. We encourage all of our supporters to become informed about this latest plan and to provide written comments no later than December 20, 2019. Details of the presentation by the DEC to the Adirondack Park Agency (APA) last week can be found at https://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/62816.html Send your comments by USPS to: John Schmid, NYSDEC, 625 Broadway, Albany, NY, 12233-4254; or by email: adirondackpark@dec.ny.gov It would be appreciated if you would share a copy of your submission with the ASR: rgh2979@gmail.com Thank you for your continuing support. This is not over. Bill Branson President, on behalf of the Board of Directors, Adirondack Railway Preservation Society
OvermodFrankly I'd rather have a secure, guaranteed, 50mph-capable corridor from the Utica area to the attractions a-buildin' in Tupper Lake...
What's "a-buildin' in Tupper Lake"? From what I hear the original developer owes $millions, and the guy trying to buy him out also is in debt in the $millions.
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Tupper-Lake-project-suffers-setback-14856771.php
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