Amen. Harrison, you are a welcome addition here!
Harrison, I'm so glad you're here. This thread and others will give a young man like yourself an idea of how the "real world" works, not how some think it works or should work.
Use it to your advantage!
tree68 MidlandMike Any update on the results of the hearings held last Dec.? Don't buy a ticket to Lake Placid...
MidlandMike Any update on the results of the hearings held last Dec.?
Any update on the results of the hearings held last Dec.?
Don't buy a ticket to Lake Placid...
I used to love riding and railfanning the Lake Placid-Saranac Lake section. I'm guessing there's not much hope of things being restored...
Harrison
Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.
Modeling the D&H in 1978.
Route of the famous "Montreal Limited"
My YouTube
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
zugmannI would say level of investment. The people who are really into it seem to be the ones that are cool. The ones that just spend money and want the "look" are the ... um... sphincters.
The issue is that some of the really well-heeled proponents of preservation in the Adirondacks -- and one of them is married to someone I knew in high school -- are both motivated and patient enough to get 'forever wild' to work. And there is little love lost between them and the snowmobiling petty-bourgeois community. There are reasons you haven't seen the reversion arguments raised publicly. Yet. No wine before its time.
Flintlock76 54light15 Only he knew what the bears were thinking! I guess they thought he was delicious. Oh yeah. He looked at the bears and saw a magnificent species of wildlife. The bears looked at him and saw lunch!
54light15 Only he knew what the bears were thinking! I guess they thought he was delicious.
Oh yeah. He looked at the bears and saw a magnificent species of wildlife. The bears looked at him and saw lunch!
While bears are looking for all the protein that they can get - a human is a rather meager source. Doubt that he was lunch, more like a appetizer.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
54light15 It is a thing where the fanatics regard the woods, the bike trails, the perfect train-spotting location and what not as theirs and you aren't welcome. I recently saw the Werner Herzog film called Grizzly Man about a guy who loved grizzly bears. He regarded them as his property and he resented anyone else like forest rangers who would also have an interest. Only he knew what the bears were thinking! I guess they thought he was delicious.
It is a thing where the fanatics regard the woods, the bike trails, the perfect train-spotting location and what not as theirs and you aren't welcome. I recently saw the Werner Herzog film called Grizzly Man about a guy who loved grizzly bears. He regarded them as his property and he resented anyone else like forest rangers who would also have an interest. Only he knew what the bears were thinking! I guess they thought he was delicious.
An absolute lesson, to be learned here! One can get so tied up in the details; they are off-guard. Consumed by the passion they were focused on. Failing to see the building storm; til they were scattered across the landscape by the storm, they had failed to note.
zugmann Flintlock76 True indeed. I've mentioned it before and there's no harm in mentioning it again, but there is a sub-culture of what I'll call "outdoor snobs" who view wilderness areas as their private preserve and don't want any of the "great unwashed" to gain access. "fake rich". People with enough money to buy a nice house in a nice area, but not rich enough to buy enough land to enjoy. So they want the gov't to pay for their private pursuits.
Flintlock76 True indeed. I've mentioned it before and there's no harm in mentioning it again, but there is a sub-culture of what I'll call "outdoor snobs" who view wilderness areas as their private preserve and don't want any of the "great unwashed" to gain access.
"fake rich".
People with enough money to buy a nice house in a nice area, but not rich enough to buy enough land to enjoy. So they want the gov't to pay for their private pursuits.
Fired up my TR-7 with the top down for a ride yesterday cruising the back roads around my relatively rural county. Seeing many 1930's & 40's houses that were built on high ground overlooking 'vistas'. They may have overlooked 'vistas' when they were built, however in the 21st Century they are overlooking McMansion developments. If you aren't rich enough to own the vista, you don't control the vista and have to live with the decisions of the actual owners of those properties.
Flintlock76That's certainly part of it, the others are the fanatics, fanatic skiers, trail bikers, trail runners, white water kayakers, and others who won't welcome anyone who doesn't have their level of fanaticism.
I would say level of investment. The people who are really into it seem to be the ones that are cool. The ones that just spend money and want the "look" are the ... um... sphincters.
It's like the guy that has the Harley hat, harley shirt, harley wallet/chain, harley mug that you never see ride his bike, and the dude that doesn't have any of that stuff, and rides his bike to work in a snowstorm.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann"fake rich". People with enough money to buy a nice house in a nice area, but not rich enough to buy enough land to enjoy. So they want the gov't to pay for their private pursuits.
That's certainly part of it, the others are the fanatics, fanatic skiers, trail bikers, trail runners, white water kayakers, and others who won't welcome anyone who doesn't have their level of fanaticism.
What those folks do for a living when they're not indulging in their sports is a mystery.
Flintlock76True indeed. I've mentioned it before and there's no harm in mentioning it again, but there is a sub-culture of what I'll call "outdoor snobs" who view wilderness areas as their private preserve and don't want any of the "great unwashed" to gain access.
tree68And you hit the nail on the head - "their" park.
True indeed. I've mentioned it before and there's no harm in mentioning it again, but there is a sub-culture of what I'll call "outdoor snobs" who view wilderness areas as their private preserve and don't want any of the "great unwashed" to gain access.
Lest any of you think I'm making this up, I read about this in an article in "Blue Ridge Outdoors" magazine, a local publication dedicated to outdoor sports. The author excoriated the "outdoor snob" attitude, both she and the "Blue Ridge" staff are of the belief the more people involved in the outdoors the better, as more will be interested in preservation of wilderness areas.
She also mentioned a term the "outdoor snobs" apply to those not in the "club," tourons, a combining of the words "tourist" and "morons."
Nice, huh?
Leo_Ames Some of the same nuts that were pushing for stealing this asset from the public and future generations, are now pushing for hiker permits for trail users in the Adirondacks. Another push to keep visitors out of their park.
Some of the same nuts that were pushing for stealing this asset from the public and future generations, are now pushing for hiker permits for trail users in the Adirondacks.
Another push to keep visitors out of their park.
Someone did a synopsis of the major players in the rail/trail thing a while back, and pointed out that one of those major players was actually anti-hiker - an interesting position to have if you're advocating for a hiking trail.
And you hit the nail on the head - "their" park.
daveklepper Does anyone have any report on how the hearings went?
Does anyone have any report on how the hearings went?
Heavily attended by the trail crowd - probably the same people at every hearing.
This is a busy time for the railroad - two Polar Express productions a night four nights a week, plus an single production one night. All the volunteers and the staff are straight out keeping the trains running, etc. Attending such hearings is truly secondary. When a sold out train means some 600 passengers, you tend to focus on that.
And this is why the written comments are so important. If you haven't started drafting yours, you have until January 7th to get it done and in. Remember - read and address the proposal. "I love trains and you shouldn't get rid of this one" won't carry much, if any, weight.
daveklepper Regarding "industrial use" you mean freight service. But who knows exactly what the future may bring in that area?
Regarding "industrial use" you mean freight service. But who knows exactly what the future may bring in that area?
Yes - Freight.
Given APA's track record, the possibility of industrial development in the park is virtually nil, but - never say never.
The final proposal can be found here: http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/62816.html
The following public hearings will be held. Another is scheduled for Utica, however I don't have the date.
Tupper Lake: Dec. 3 from 6 to 8 p.m. at Tupper Lake Middle-High School, 131 Chaney Ave, Tupper Lake, NY 12986Lake Placid: Dec. 4 from 6 to 8 p.m. at the Lake Placid Conference Center, 2608 Main St., Lake Placid, NY 12946Old Forge: Dec. 5 from 6 to 8 p.m. at the View Arts Center, 3256 Rt 28, Old Forge, NY 13420
The Draft UMP Amendment/SEIS can be viewed and downloaded from the DEC website, listed above.
The deadline for comments is close of business Dec. 20, 2019. Comments may be provided at any of the public meetings; mailed to John Schmid, NYSDEC, 625 Broadway, Albany, NY, 12233-4254; or e-mailed to adirondackpark@dec.ny.gov.
Before you send any comments, please be sure to read the proposed UMP. Craft your comments to address what you see as shortcomings to the plan, and what you feel would be the benefits of leaving the tracks in place.
Citing your personal experience (if you have some that relates) can't hurt, either.
"Railfan" comments ("you can't take away our trains!") will do the cause little or no good.
Noting the value of the rails as a tourist attraction and a source of revenue for local businesses is a plus. Verifiable information about the shortcomings of trails would be good, too.
There is little chance of any "industrial" use of the corridor.
MidlandMike So now after ARTA has fought and convinced the State to remove the Tupper-Lake Placid tracks, they now want to remove the Thendara-Tupper tracks?
So now after ARTA has fought and convinced the State to remove the Tupper-Lake Placid tracks, they now want to remove the Thendara-Tupper tracks?
Missed this earlier.
Actually, some portion of the "trail advocates" want the tracks gone all the way to Remsen.
It'll get built, just as Trump got his casino in Atlantic City built.
Personally I don't care who winds up owning the place, or how far into debt or the pokey they go doing it. I do think someone, probably sooner rather than later, will set it up ... knowing as they do that no one will drive there on the available roads, and certainly won't get there by bike or snowmobile.
OvermodFrankly I'd rather have a secure, guaranteed, 50mph-capable corridor from the Utica area to the attractions a-buildin' in Tupper Lake...
What's "a-buildin' in Tupper Lake"? From what I hear the original developer owes $millions, and the guy trying to buy him out also is in debt in the $millions.
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Tupper-Lake-project-suffers-setback-14856771.php
MidlandMikeSo now after ARTA has fought and convinced the State to remove the Tupper-Lake Placid tracks, they now want to remove the Thendara-Tupper tracks?
Won't be happening.
What is new is that the state will be prioritizing restoration of the track to Tupper Lake, and from what I understand using the entire 'product' of track lifting to help restore and maintain the whole of the route the ASR operates over. No longer is that ARTA-promoted scam about 'the trail will pay for itself out of the scrap value' in play ... which I think is a good thing for both the rail and trail proponents in the long run.
If I recall correctly, Tupper Lake is strong on having active train service (they expensively renovated their 'station facility' a decade ago) while Saranac Lake is right up there with Tenafly in the 'couldn't care less' category. So having Tupper and their new 'gaming attractions' or whatever be a logical endpoint for ASR-style service makes good sense, whereas giving communities further north 'access to the general system of transportation' when they already see insular service as an intrusion is... not something their democracy is going to particularly value. (Tupper signed one of those suspiciously-similarly-worded town resolutions to have the trail ... but they are in the position of having both EOT for the rail attraction and the trailhead.)
When the forever-wilders come out of the woodwork to interrupt the trail conversion, we'll see how much crawfishing to restore rail service results, but frankly I'll settle for assured high quality service to Tupper Lake in the meantime.
INCIDENTALLY: isn't it interesting you haven't seen anything about Bill Branson saying he was misquoted in that article?
He says this ... via link to the NYCSHS Web site Nov 23, or I wouldn't have known, even from RyPN:
We write to clarify recent news coverage and provide a balance to the announcement by the NYS Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) of its new “rail trail” plan to amend the 1996 Remsen-Lake Placid Unit Management Plan, the plan that is the governing document for the transportation corridor. Since December 2018, members of the executive committee of the Board of ARPS have met often with NYS officials to plan all the elements of the upgrade to Tupper Lake first announced by Governor Cuomo in May 2016. In early November the ASR was informed an announcement by DEC was forthcoming that would support the upgrade and we were asked for a supportive comment to be included in the press release – the comment provided is about the upgrade, not the rail trail. There has been no settlement. Any such reference is not accurate. The railroad was seriously misled. Media outlets have been provided all the facts of the ASR position during the past five years. The ASR won the case at the Supreme Court and it is NYS agencies that have to comply with their laws. The proposed plan must comply with the September 2017 ruling by Judge Main. The ASR reserves the option to again pursue legal action. The announcement last week by the DEC and the presentation to the Adirondack Park Agency continues the misguided effort that seeks to deprive the communities of Saranac Lake and Lake Placid of a direct connection to the national rail network. The process is now underway with public hearings. ARPS Board members will attend the hearings to gather information and listen to comments from the public. Written comments will be provided. We encourage all of our supporters to become informed about this latest plan and to provide written comments no later than December 20, 2019. Details of the presentation by the DEC to the Adirondack Park Agency (APA) last week can be found at https://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/62816.html Send your comments by USPS to: John Schmid, NYSDEC, 625 Broadway, Albany, NY, 12233-4254; or by email: adirondackpark@dec.ny.gov It would be appreciated if you would share a copy of your submission with the ASR: rgh2979@gmail.com Thank you for your continuing support. This is not over. Bill Branson President, on behalf of the Board of Directors, Adirondack Railway Preservation Society
Mention of the Saratoga and North Creek is instructive. They wanted to haul out tailings from Tahawas mine, which would probably have made it easier to reclaim that mine. Still the forever wild people wanted none of it. CP killed the project because apparently they didn't think the Saratoga-Albany short haul was worth it. They started to store oil tank cars to get some income for that unused track which really upset the locals. Snowmobilers were not happy that snow trains precluded their use of the ROW.
daveklepper In other words, there are no businesses in the combined commounities of Saranac Lake and Lake Placid that would benefit from rail freight service or there are too few and no possibilities for increase?
In other words, there are no businesses in the combined commounities of Saranac Lake and Lake Placid that would benefit from rail freight service or there are too few and no possibilities for increase?
Development is tightly controlled in the Adirondack Park. They've been trying to get a resort off the ground in Tupper Lake for a number of years and have experienced significant pushback.
I heard of a fellow who caught grief for the color of his steel roof (red) even though it could only be seen from the air, and then just barely.
The railroad is limited to cutting fallen trees back to clear the ROW. After the derecho of 1995 there was a lot of lumber blown down to the ground. Loggers were not allowed to pull it from the forest, where it lays to this day, rotting away.
Any new industry that requires rail service will likely see similar pushback.
Any need for rail freight would be limited to those consumers/industries already extant, and aside from fuel, there wouldn't much call for rail service quantities.
Lumbering isn't the major industry it once was. There were numerous businesses and institutions that got coal - that's gone. Even fuel now arrives in 9,000 gallon tanker trucks, minimizing the need for railroad tank car quantities.
The motto for the Adirondack Park is "Forever Wild," and there are those who take this motto to heart.
In other words, there are no businesses in the combined commounities of Sadanac Lake and Lake Placid that would benefit from rail freight service or there are too few and no possibilities for increzase?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.