Another in the seemingly endless battles between the railroad [ASR], and the 'Trail' folks. It seems that this struggle has gone on for years(?). Like the 'death by a thousand cuts'. It futher seems that the main battle is which side will run out of money first. Once again, a struggle that only the lawyers will 'win'(?).
Referenced in the current TRAINSNewswire piece is a PDF from a piece by Karl Zimmermann from (in July issue) dated May27, 2016; which details the story whose title gives an indication that it is not a friendly situation : 'Trails vs.Rails:A potential precedent-setting case in New York state turns an ally into an enemy'
PDF linked@ http://trn.trains.com/~/media/files/pdf/2016/trnc0716.pdf
The next itertion of this story in the November issue of the TRAINS Newswire is:
"Rail versus trail battle continues in upstate New York"
I don't know about the details, but I have enjoyed a ride on both the Railroad and the Rail bikes, so GO ASR!
Harrison
Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.
Modeling the D&H in 1978.
Route of the famous "Montreal Limited"
My YouTube
This issue has little to do with real estate, as in development - which is heavily regulated in the Park, and very much to do with the desire of a few who want to see the rails up and everyone out of "their" woods.
The "trail advocates" shot down a rail plus trail proposal cold. It would have left the rails in place and developed a parallel trail where possible, with some alternate trail routings where having the two alongside each other would not be physically possible. This very much colors their supposed commitment to building the trail.
The end run to the Adirondack Park Agency was an attempt to circumvent the ruling of a judge who said that the proposal to pull up the tracks from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid was seriously flawed. The APA proposal would have added "trail" to the definition of a travel corridor (currently defined as rail or road). Public comments came in at some 60% favoring leaving it as is - ie, favoring rail.
One of the groups pushing to have the rails lifted is ostensibly the snowmobile community. I understand their concern - there must be a good eight inches of packed snow on the railbed before they can ride without interference from the rails.
On the other hand, there are areas through which the corridor passes which ban any mechanical conveyance, including snowmobiles. It is a safe bet that the "forever wild" faction, which has not spoken up yet, would be in the forefront of banning sleds from those portions of the corridor should the rails be lifted. Many in the snowmobile community now understand this and have pulled back their support for the trail proposal. The trail along the corridor is currently a popular route for snowmobilers (when there's enough snow - which hasn't been often lately). They don't want to lose it.
The folks providing the financial backing for the "trail advocates" are long-time foes of the railroad - they opposed activating the line for the Olympics in 1979-80. They have a history of fighting activities that would interrupt their forest reverie, regardless of any economic reprecussions to local communities.
On the political side, it doesn't help that the governor is well-known for being a "pay to play" type of fellow, and he was just inexplicably re-elected. The "trail advocates" have the money to play that game - the railroad does not.
And the money the state supposedly was going to put into rehabilitating the line from Big Moose to Tupper Lake amazingly disappeared when the judge ruled against the state.
When discussing the topic with folks at shows (it's probably the top question asked), I alway point out that they need to look at the events surrounding the issue from the aspect of the "trail advocates" simply wanting everyone out of "their" woods.
Lastly - if the tracks are eventually lifted, don't look for the "trail advocates" to be anywhere to be found. They will leave it to others to develop those trails, if they don't end up fighting those efforts as well.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Thanks, Larry[tree68], I knew you'd help us understand the local picture.
Since I'm not obsessive about checking this forum for Adirondack Rail/Trail comments, it appears I'm 18 days late in this comment. Nevertheless, I will say to Larry that we trail advocates have been very involved in the ongoing planning with the DEC for the eventual tail trail. And with five staunch snowmobile advocates (which we gladly welcome) on the Adirondack Recreational Trail Advocates (ARTA) board of directors, ARTA is totally committed to insuring that snowmobiling remains a permitted use for the length of the Corridor. Hence our pressure on the Adirondack Park Agency to finally amend the State Land Management Plan (SLMP) to further define the "Travel Corridor" classification to make it clear that it remained a travel corridor even without the tracks. This SLMP amendment was prescribed in the 1996 Unit Management Plan (UMP) for the Corridor in the event that recreational use (Option 4) became the final choice. This SLMP amendment still preserves this corridor's right-of-way should rail service at some distant point ever again be desired.
The ARTA board members who are strong snowmobile advocate are:
1) Jim McCulley, President of the Lake Placid Snowmobile Club, but should need no further introduction.
2) Jim Rolf, NYS Snowmobile Association Trails Coordinator.
3) John Brockway, owner of Charlie's Inn at Lake Clear Junction whose winter business would benefit greatly from snowmobilers who could ride in with minimal snow from three directions rather than just down from Malone where the tracks are long gone.
4) Hope Fenette, Tupper Lake resident who skis and snowmobiles and is well-aware of the economic benefits to Tupper Lake when there is enough snow for snowmobilers to get there.
5) Chris Kenniston, also a Tpper Lake resident who also snowmobiles as well as skis and knows that both uses must be accommodated.
I'm sure the five of you have been busy, out there on the right of way dealing with the damage from the two years the railroad hasn't had to maintain the line. Or is that the railroad's job...
And if the tracks do get lifted, you'll be out there every year dealing with washouts, fallen trees, etc...
Could always take the bridges and culverts, too, if the rail is pulled up. Putting in that provision would shed light on their true intentions.
Here's a recent five-minute video I made of the next-to-last Utica-Thendara run of the 2018 season:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNQFoG3u5FY&t=1s
tree68On the political side, it doesn't help that the governor is well-known for being a "pay to play" type of fellow, and he was just inexplicably re-elected. The "trail advocates" have the money to play that game - the railroad does not. And the money the state supposedly was going to put into rehabilitating the line from Big Moose to Tupper Lake amazingly disappeared when the judge ruled against the state.
runnerdude48 tree68 "...I can tell you where that money went. It went to Puerto Rico supposedly to help them recover from the hurricane last year. But, I would be willing to bet that it is now back in Albany but you're not going to find any accounting for it anywhere on the state's books.
tree68
"...I can tell you where that money went. It went to Puerto Rico supposedly to help them recover from the hurricane last year. But, I would be willing to bet that it is now back in Albany but you're not going to find any accounting for it anywhere on the state's books.
In this day and time it seems the politics of anguish are everywhere. The ASR is up to their collective eyeballs in their fight for existance with groups that seem bent on their own agendas.
FTA:"...The railroad believes that "a disgruntled former employee who had access to the site by virtue of passwords" changed wording on a survey question to give it a negative meaning, says Bill Branson, board president of the Adirondack Railway Preservation Society, which operates the railroad. The passwords have been changed, Branson adds..." I'd guess that is score one, for the IT folks who are incessently, clamoring for users to change their pass words.
ASR's problem was in the following clip from the Newswire piece:FTA: "...The railroad routinely sends a survey to people who ride its popular Polar Express train. A question that usually reads "How much do you love the Polar Express?" was changed to read "How much do you hate the Polar Express?" according to a news account that aired Nov. 30 on Utica's WKTV..."
Then there was this notation in the Newswire article: "... The railroad is in an ongoing dispute with some residents in upstate New York who want to have a 34-mile portion of the ASR's state-owned tracks removed to make way for a rail trail. A meeting of the Adirondack Park Agency, which is proposing an amendment to governing language that would help facilitate removal of the tracks, is set for Dec. 13 to 14..."
It sure seems that the State and the plaintiffs are dragging the ASR once more to the guillotine. It is a shame that the folks backing this will loose a source of local transportation, into an area that can use the same. It appears to an outsider that the plaintiffs are getting more pleasure out of the threats to the railroad, and the actual resolution of the situation for all in the area.
"...Kiss my lips, feel the rhythm of your heart and hips
Trails bnefit the ablebodied. Elderly and handicapped can enjoy a train ride. Has ASR ever used that argument?
daveklepper Trails bnefit the ablebodied. Elderly and handicapped can enjoy a train ride. Has ASR ever used that argument?
Great point David! I'm surprised it hasn't come up sooner.
Paved trails are wheelchare accessable, and I believe motorized wheelchairs are pemitted on non-motorized trails.
It's been brought up. Of little import if your only goal is to get the rails out of the woods. These folks don't care if those with limited mobility can get to see the Adirondacks by any means. They want everyone out of their woods.
Not yet heard from in this "battle" are the environmental preservationists who will see to it that those portions of the corridor which pass through areas of the park that limit motorized (or even simple mechanical, like a mountain bike) access follow those rules as well, if the rails are lifted. Which means no snowmobiles...
The snowmobile crowd is now complaining about the washouts (beavers!) along the corridor, but you don't see them offering to help fix those areas. I guess it's the hated railroad's responsibility...
Just how well has anybody looked at the original purchase of the line from NYC and how the legislature tagged funds, enabled a bill to purchase the thing? ie- bought the corridor for what specific purposes? USRA Line Codes really don't apply here, so I'm lead to believe that this thing was separated from PC by the state with some preconditions that did not solely involve Olympics planning by NY-DOT and the creation of what became CR (and more importantly what didn't).
mudchickenJust how well has anybody looked at the original purchase of the line...
That was the crux of Judge Main's decision - there were at least three locations where the corridor would revert to owners other than the state. How many more are there? (Rhetorical question.)
One factor is that much of the land the corridor runs through, while it may have been held privately at the time, now belongs to the state via numerous land purchases over time, so if those portions of the corridor revert to the property owner, it'll be the state anyhow.
And, as Ive said, these "trail advocates" really don't care - they just want everyone out of the woods. They can't accomplish that as long as the tracks are in place.
Midland Mike: Have you ever seen people who are elderly or in a wheelchair on a trail? Where and when? But you do see all kinds of people on trains.
I think the argument is a pretty good one.
daveklepper Midland Mike: Have you ever seen people who are elderly or in a wheelchair on a trail? Where and when? But you do see all kinds of people on trains. I think the argument is a pretty good one.
Yes, the last time I was on a paved trail was in October in Zion Nat'l Park. There was an elderly gentleman in a wheelchair with family at least a mile back on the trail. He made it thru spots with mud and gravel across the trail. The family seemed obviously proud of his efforts. I have ridden many tourist trains, including the Adirondack scenic, and while seeing a person or two in wheelchairs would be unremarkable, I don't recall seeing any trips with noticable numbers of handicapped persons. Disabled people can get "reasonable accomidation" including mobile options on non-motorized trails. As far as elderly, yes I remember seeing a few elderly people on the Mt. Marcy trail (not paved, unless you count boulders) several years back. I have seen senior citizens hiking up 14,000' mountains in Colorado.
There's more to "mobility limited" than wheel chairs - we have a lot of folks who don't need the lift to get on the train, but definitely would be out of their element on a trail.
"Plans" for the trail generally don't go beyond "stone dust" as a paving medium - ie, fine gravel.
Remember, too, that portions of the corridor have zero cell coverage. Break a leg or get attacked by a bear and help will be a long, long time coming.
People tend to be pretty messy, too. Read up on the Appalachin Trail and the issues they are encountering. The great part about the train is that aside from a little exhaust, virtually nothing is left behind, unless someone tosses trash out a window.
tree68 mudchicken That was the crux of Judge Main's decision - there were at least three locations where the corridor would revert to owners other than the state. How many more are there? (Rhetorical question.) One factor is that much of the land the corridor runs through, while it may have been held privately at the time, now belongs to the state via numerous land purchases over time, so if those portions of the corridor revert to the property owner, it'll be the state anyhow. And, as Ive said, these "trail advocates" really don't care - they just want everyone out of the woods. They can't accomplish that as long as the tracks are in place.
mudchicken
The TRAINS Newswire of Dec. 12 carries an article referencing this on going struggle over the ASR and its continued existance as an operational entity over the full ROW, and the contested 34 miles.
Apparently, the resolution being sought is a change of definition for the ROW.
[in part] FTA:"...New York state had proposed in 2016 to remove the tracks to create a rail trail. The Adirondack Scenic Railroad, which operates the entire Remsen-Lake Placid line on a permit from the state, sued the state. Judge Robert Main Jr. ruled in 2017 against the state, in part because of the rail corridor definition contained in the Adirondack Park State Land Master Plan, which governs use of the park. The proposed new definition of rail corridor reads "A railroad corridor is the fee, easement, or right-of-way lands that include the Remsen-Lake Placid railbed or any future acquisition that may be considered for classification as a travel corridor, existing (1) for the operation of rail cars, and/or (2) to serve as a rail trail." The full proposal is posted on the agency website. If the committee approves the proposal, the full agency will consider it on Friday.[Dec 14(?)]
One has to wonder how this will be interpreted by the various opposing [to the ASR] groups, and how they will see this; will it be a resolution, for the issues(?). Or will it be just another legal manouver in this on-going dispute?
samfp1943One has to wonder how this will be interpreted by the various opposing [to the ASR] groups, and how they will see this; will it be a resolution, for the issues(?). Or will it be just another legal manouver in this on-going dispute?
I'm sure that if that definition is accepted by APA, there will be cheering, but for some, the war won't be over until every stick of rail has been removed from the Adirondack Park.
The campaign to remove these rails has been well financed by a very determined individual. The railroad does not have the resources to mount the counter-offensive that is needed.
Who is that individual? If you do not wish to post the answer, please write me at:
daveklepper@yahoo.com
I plan to write a personal letter to the Gov. on this. For whatever good it may do!
daveklepperWho is that individual?
Email sent.
tree68 daveklepper Who is that individual? Email sent.
daveklepper Who is that individual?
I would like to learn some more about this too, now that the site has finally decided to recognize me again.
PM or email me.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70Dude tree68 daveklepper Who is that individual? Email sent. I would like to learn some more about this too, now that the site has finally decided to recognize me again. PM or email me.
Appears a lot of use were 'squeezed out' of the forum by Kalmbach IT - AGAIN. I'd also like to know who wants the Adirondak's as his private property.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Lee Keet is the co-founder of the Adirondack Recreational Trail Advocates (ARTA) and is believed to be the primary source of money for this battle. He's very wealthy, spends part of each year in the Saranac Lake area, and apparently doesn't like the sound of air horns or the tourists that it brings to town.
He's also accused of lining the pockets of a variety of local politicians to get them on board with his plan, getting them to ignore the interests of the small businesses along the Adirondack Scenic Railroad and their other constituencies.
And I really wouldn't bother writing to the governor about this. He's on ARTA's side and is the individual that is currently leading the most corrupt government in the history of New York State. Heck, he even shut down his own Commission to Investigate Public Corruption when it was getting too close for comfort.
He's on ARTA's side as long as they keep paying more than the opposition does. And as far as I know, the Adirondack Scenic Railroad lacks a wealthy multi-millionaire willing to outbid the opposition for Cuomo's support.
Can I quote your entire posting as an example of the reputation he is leaving behind, annonomously, of course.
I do not define myself as a member of the Dem. Party. But I do plan to include the 1955 NYTimes obit of my Dad who workd hard for the Dems.
I will simply state that if the rails are lifted, your evaluation is the one that will prvail in Israel. That I can surely effect, because it is a very very clear case of special intersts vs the common good.
If you don't want an exact quote, I can paraphrase it.
The area does need rail service. And to define a trail as transportation is a lie. It is recreation, not transportation. There is enough lieing in politics and diplomacy withou this addition.
Sure, you can quote it.
I do wonder if some compromise is possible.
Air-onditioned coaches with sealed windows and a prohibition of discarding anything while passing throiugh the protected area might be one idea.
Special noise midigation for the locomotives and some way to avoid whistle blowing.
Furtherk is there a possiblity of a shipper that woiuld make use of freight service?
daveklepper I do wonder if some compromise is possible. Air-onditioned coaches with sealed windows and a prohibition of discarding anything while passing throiugh the protected area might be one idea. Special noise midigation for the locomotives and some way to avoid whistle blowing. Furtherk is there a possiblity of a shipper that woiuld make use of freight service?
I have been in the area and seen their trains, and I don't think a "quiet Zone" would be practical, as most of the crossings are unprotected or don't have gates. Sadly, I can't think of a shipper, in Saranac Lake you can see the remains of old spurs to local industries.
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