Paul of Covington edblysard Three Step, or “Red Zone” as the GCOR railroads put it, must now be a radio transmission, no hand signals allowed anymore. Could this be because radio conversations are recorded? A CYA situation?
edblysard Three Step, or “Red Zone” as the GCOR railroads put it, must now be a radio transmission, no hand signals allowed anymore.
Could this be because radio conversations are recorded? A CYA situation?
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jeffhergertThat's why I think it's more a CYA for the companies.
Our FRA guy was the one that recently "requested" putting three step on the air. Before that, if we were on hand signals, three step was, too. Three fingers in the air to request and acknowledge, folding the fingers down to cancel (and acknowledge).
We're in the habit of reporting changes in main track switches on the air, too, although that's not required and we don't make a fuss if someone doesn't report a reversed switch. Oftimes we have a trainman doing that work, so reporting it on the air ensures the entire crew (including the conductor) is aware.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
edblysard Our’s was two hands clasped, like glad hands, together…give yourself a handshake and you will have it.
Well, Larry, if you had moved to Houston and started switching for a living, you would have needed careful instruction.
I had heard of some difference from road to road in the standard signal for backing
Johnny
DeggestyWell, Larry, if you had moved to Houston and started switching for a living, you would have needed careful instruction.
That would be the case anytime one changes railroads. Despite using similar (or even the same) rules there can be minor differences in how each railroad applies them. This is a challenge to us when we bring in a new volunteer with experience on a railroad.
All the basics are the same, it just how you go about doing them.
As long as the sender and receiver both apply the same meaning to a given instruction/action all is good.
I've heard of railroads that simply point in between the cars to indicate that they are "going in."
Some railroads require an actual cancellation of three step protection by the person who called for it. Some consider a call for a move by that same person as the cancellation.
In the end, we take the safe course.
tree68 jeffhergert That's why I think it's more a CYA for the companies. Our FRA guy was the one that recently "requested" putting three step on the air. Before that, if we were on hand signals, three step was, too. Three fingers in the air to request and acknowledge, folding the fingers down to cancel (and acknowledge). We're in the habit of reporting changes in main track switches on the air, too, although that's not required and we don't make a fuss if someone doesn't report a reversed switch. Oftimes we have a trainman doing that work, so reporting it on the air ensures the entire crew (including the conductor) is aware.
jeffhergert That's why I think it's more a CYA for the companies.
If the guy is in the field, the request must be over the radio. No more hand signals. (We kind of had two. One was like Ed's, for us the sign for making air hoses. The other was the sign for setting the air brake, back and forth about waist level, and then pointing towards the train.) But, we are allowed to establish a face to face red zone when the crewmember is in the cab with the engineer. This must still be announced over the radio. It's this announcement after a face to face establishment that does nothing to enhance safety. Really, since the rule comes under "Understanding between crew members before crossing through or fouling equipment," using the radio only enhances the understanding for those who are not crewmembers of the train. The FRA probably doesn't trust working railroaders any more than management.
I, as an engineer have to establish my own red zone over the radio if I have to foul the locomotives to do something. Like to make MU hoses or cable. I haven't figured out how I can run myself over, being out of the cab. No one else is supposed to touch the controls of engines I'm in charge of. Yet, a manager can come along and manually start up a locomotive while the engineer and conductor are down, in the red zone, MUing it to their consist. It happened in my terminal. The crew complained about it, but the ruling was that the manager was not at fault for starting up the engine.
Jeff
Our hand signal for "in between" was rolling one's hands together while facing the engineer, who would acknowledge by sticking his arm out the locomotive window and turning his hand down.
There was no signal to end the protection, we considered a signal to move from the person who had previously asked for the protection as implying that protection was no longer required.
Of course now "set and centred" is required to be announced over the radio.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
jeffhergertYet, a manager can come along and manually start up a locomotive while the engineer and conductor are down, in the red zone, MUing it to their consist. It happened in my terminal. The crew complained about it, but the ruling was that the manager was not at fault for starting up the engine.
I think this story filled me with more rage than anything I've read on the forums so far. And I get angrier the more I think about it.
Turning 3-step into a weed-weasel pro-forma gotcha is one thing. Making it useless to assure real safety for a crew that has been conned into believing it absolute is ... I run out of words that can be used in a family-friendly place.
Overmod jeffhergert Yet, a manager can come along and manually start up a locomotive while the engineer and conductor are down, in the red zone, MUing it to their consist. It happened in my terminal. The crew complained about it, but the ruling was that the manager was not at fault for starting up the engine. I think this story filled me with more rage than anything I've read on the forums so far. And I get angrier the more I think about it. Turning 3-step into a weed-weasel pro-forma gotcha is one thing. Making it useless to assure real safety for a crew that has been conned into believing it absolute is ... I run out of words that can be used in a family-friendly place.
jeffhergert Yet, a manager can come along and manually start up a locomotive while the engineer and conductor are down, in the red zone, MUing it to their consist. It happened in my terminal. The crew complained about it, but the ruling was that the manager was not at fault for starting up the engine.
I think that's SOP for many corporations--managers are never wrong. This case, though, is especially scary when you consider the danger.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Can you hang a blue flag on the proper controls--to be removed only by someone in the same craft as the perso who hung it?
If I told you that all the rules were treated like that now would it make you more or less angry? Because that's the way things are, and have been for some time.
To backtrack to the original subject of "OS", for a while out here they were trying to entrap crews by making the Dispatcher say the wrong word/number/time when giving a clearance or receiving a track release. They did eventually come to their senses and end that particular practice though.
This arbitration case concerns the firing of a Conductor who refused to participate in a similar "test":
http://arbitrations.netfirms.com/croa/45/CR4214.htm
Deggesty Well, Larry, if you had moved to Houston and started switching for a living, you would have needed careful instruction. I had heard of some difference from road to road in the standard signal for backing
Deggesty Can you hang a blue flag on the proper controls--to be removed only by someone in the same craft as the perso who hung it?
edblysardYes, car men do that all the time when working air on a train.
I carry some tags for that, but rarely use them as we haven't encountered any problems with anyone getting into the cab and doing anything untoward. We generally don't have much of anyone around besides the crew.
One problem with a blue flag is that one is also supposed to put up flags and secure switches with blue locks as well. But there are places that use that instead of three step and its variations.
I was at Greenfield Village a few years ago and asked the crew how one handles three step with a steam locomotive. There is a variation that is used by some steam operators, but they simply blue-flagged the train if they needed to do any work.
To be honest, is it much different than AESS starting up a locomotive*? I've always maintained (and told whomever would listen) to never take "red zone" "3-step" or "in betweeen" for granted. STUFF CAN STILL MOVE. Always be able to get your butt out of there if you have to. I've had my train coupled into by another crew while I had 3 step by my hogger. Stuff happens. I've been lacing up hoses when a car that was only butted finally rolled down and banged into my cars after I pulled them.
*-Granted, nobody should be messing with an engine while someone else is on the ground working around it. I'm just amazed you found a manager that could start an engine.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Can someone give a quick refresher course in the 3-step process for those of us with shallow attention spans? Thanks
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
tree68 I was at Greenfield Village a few years ago and asked the crew how one handles three step with a steam locomotive. There is a variation that is used by some steam operators, but they simply blue-flagged the train if they needed to do any work.
Our policy:
-Independent applied fully.
-Reverser centred.
-Throttle shut off and a specially shaped (homemade) block placed into the mechanism so it cannot be opened.
Of course there is no generator field switch to turn off.
Murphy Siding Can someone give a quick refresher course in the 3-step process for those of us with shallow attention spans? Thanks
3 step:
-Centre reverser.
-Fully apply independent brake.
-Turn off generator field switch.
-Confirm with employee on the ground that protection is in place.
CN uses a slightly different variation, "set and centred". We do not have to turn off the generator field switch. IMO it makes no difference as the locomotive cannot load with the reverser centred anyway.
zugmannI've been lacing up hoses when a car that was only butted finally rolled down and banged into my cars after I pulled them.
I've had that happen many times, particularly when putting the air to the standing cars. I generally expect it so I'm rarely surprised.
The cars are always coupled (usually with a stretch), so it's just slack running in or out.
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