I was stopped at a crossing yesterday as the Ellis & Eastern switched a few cars into a spur. I noticed that their Geep had a big ol' rear view mirror mounted on the outside of the engineer's window. Is this common for locomotives that do a lot of switching? How useful would it be, considering the engineer is on the radio with the men on the ground?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
(1) Yes
(2) Radios fail or get "stepped" on (Plus hoggers are sometimes Bi-)
(3) Queue up Wabbo and EdB for a redux.
Was told many years ago - for engineers to admire themselves...
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
mudchicken (1) Yes (2) Radios fail or get "stepped" on (Plus hoggers are sometimes Bi-) (3) Queue up Wabbo and EdB for a redux.
Directional
Murphy SidingHow useful would it be, considering the engineer is on the radio with the men on the ground?
As the others have said - very useful. For switching, it allows you to see what's going on (if you are on the same side as the work). There's been times I caught stuff the conductor missed just by using the mirrors.
And if you are running long hood out, mirrors are great. Beats having to try to be a contortionist to see out the back window.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Are the mirrors mostly just used on locomotives used for switching? Most pictures I see of road units don't have them and truthfully, I can't remember if the ones I see in person do or don't.
mudchicken Directional ?
Directional ?
Not bi-partisan?
Mookie Was told many years ago - for engineers to admire themselves...
zugmannAnd if you are running long hood out, mirrors are great.
Our F's have mirrors, but they're so small and close to the carbody that you don't see much.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Murphy Siding How useful would it be, considering the engineer is on the radio with the men on the ground?
How useful would it be, considering the engineer is on the radio with the men on the ground?
Many old heads, and a few younger ones, are of the opinion that the less said over the radio, the better. Once they had instructions to use hand signals when moving light power around the yard to cut down on the radio chatter. Most now use radio for everything. It's a rare pleasure to get a trainmen who prefers hand signals when they are visible.
Get two or three jobs all working at the same time within radio range and it gets interesting. Often one job might be able to go to another channel, but sometimes it's not possible. I've stopped before because I couldn't clearly hear my conductor's radio instructions.
Most of our engines have mirrors. About the only ones that don't are those equipped with bay-window type storm windows.
Jeff
Murphy Siding Are the mirrors mostly just used on locomotives used for switching? Most pictures I see of road units don't have them and truthfully, I can't remember if the ones I see in person do or don't.
Most if not all CSX units have them. They are useful for keeping an eye on the train without have to turn around so much. The bigger ones give a much better view than the small ones.
Mark Vinski
Murphy Siding I was stopped at a crossing yesterday as the Ellis & Eastern switched a few cars into a spur. I noticed that their Geep had a big ol' rear view mirror mounted on the outside of the engineer's window. Is this common for locomotives that do a lot of switching? How useful would it be, considering the engineer is on the radio with the men on the ground?
There are only 60 seconds of air time available on the Road Channel every minute. With multiple trains operating in the same geographical area the Road Channel can be overloaded with various communications in very short order. In such situations it is advisable to use hand signals for ground-locomotive communications so the chance of confused instructions is minimized. Voices between people communicating on a radio channel are often confused.
Early in my career, switching with radios was a Efficency Test Failure.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It seems like you'd have a ginormous blind spot when backing up that locomotive. Wouldn't most of what's going on occur near the couplers in the area you can't see?
Murphy Siding It seems like you'd have a ginormous blind spot when backing up that locomotive. Wouldn't most of what's going on occur near the couplers in the area you can't see?
That is the reason you have brakemen on the point of shoving moves in either direction - to give voice and/or hand signals about the distance to the coupling and to insure that the coupling is not made at an excessive speed. Moving locomotives is really not a one man job.
Murphy SidingIt seems like you'd have a ginormous blind spot when backing up that locomotive. Wouldn't most of what's going on occur near the couplers in the area you can't see?
Yes, but ... how much of this isn't even more true for the same locomotive type in tha same place WITHOUT mirrors?
The 'better' alternative is a reasonably high-resolution camera with wide field and some Pan/tilt capability on each end, in conjunction with the mirrors. That hasn't been popular so far, for some fairly predictable reasons and rationales.
Murphy Siding(2) Radios fail or get "stepped" on (Plus hoggers are sometimes Bi-) (3) Queue up Wabbo and EdB for a redux. Almost afraid to ask for a clarification on #2.
I will answer what does "stepped on" mean. Its when another individual (C) transmits while you are trying to either send or receive thus stepping on your (a-b) conversation. I have no clue as to the second part of (2) .
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I run an amateur radio "net" once a week, and participate in nets at other times. It's not unusual to have two or three people try to respond when we call for check-ins. Sometimes only one radio will get through at all, and occasionally, if they are about equal in strength to the receiver, you'll hear "intermod." There's a certain timing inherent in keying up, making it that much more likely two folks will key up at once.
We've run "radio free" days on the railroad. Some people have a real problem with that - they just love to talk on the radio. It's not unusual for one of the crew to suggest going to hand signals if we have two trains in proximity around the yard. Our trains are fairly short, so oftimes even someone at the rear of the train can still work with hand signals.
We had a hand signal for "three step" as well as cancelling same, but our FRA inspector indicated he'd rather hear the request on the radio, so that goes out on the air now.
edblysard Oh it was hard to be quiet this long!
tree68 I put a mirror inside the cab for that purpose...
I put a mirror inside the cab for that purpose...
When I was working Butler yard jobs, I got tired of looking back for every movement (90% of the work at Butler was at the north end of the yard by the yard office, and of course the locomotives were also facing north). My neck would be quite sore by the end of the day.
So I decided to remedy the situation myself and built my own mirror attachment. Many people looked at me strangely when I started using it. They thought I was crazy, lazy, hazy, or all of the above. However, soon after I started using my home-built mirror, other forms of home-made mirrors began to appear.
tree68 Our F's have mirrors, but they're so small and close to the carbody that you don't see much.
edblysard Three Step, or “Red Zone” as the GCOR railroads put it, must now be a radio transmission, no hand signals allowed anymore. Which I really don’t like, when my engineer is looking right at me. Now, if a signal, especially one like red zone or three step is requested on a radio, then it also must be acknowledged and released via radio. Same applied way back when…if you asked for a red zone or gave an in -between signal by hand, then the engineer would only accept a release or clear signal by hand, and the same via radio.
We are allowed to have an in-cab face to face job briefing establishing a Red Zone. Then it must be announced over the radio.
edblysardThree Step, or “Red Zone” as the GCOR railroads put it, must now be a radio transmission, no hand signals allowed anymore.
Could this be because radio conversations are recorded? A CYA situation?
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of CovingtonCould this be because radio conversations are recorded? A CYA situation?
Probably just the opposite: 'not documented, not done'. And you can't document hand signals with something legal to use in a cab during work.
Overmod Paul of Covington Could this be because radio conversations are recorded? A CYA situation? Probably just the opposite: 'not documented, not done'. And you can't document hand signals with something legal to use in a cab during work.
Paul of Covington Could this be because radio conversations are recorded? A CYA situation?
I don't get it. You say "opposite" yet you say the same. My point was that the radio conversation proves that the procedure was followed.
My observation of retained radio conversations is that ONLY communications involving the Train Dispatcher on any channel are saved.
Radio transmissions that do not involve the Train Dispatcher are not recorded.
The technological problem is that the Road Channel may cover a subdivision of 100-150 miles. There are multiple radio 'stations' along that route that are used to facilitate communications over the entire sub. The individual stations are spaced every 10 to 15 miles. When someone 'tones in' the Train Dispatcher that signal in is relayed by the nearest field radio station - which then lights up and tones on the Dispatchers communications console. The Dispatcher answers on a particular radio station. Communications taking place by crews at other locations a distance from the selected station are not heard by the Dispatcher and most likely they won't hear the Dispatcher either.
My understanding (which can be wrong, very wrong) is that the normal walkie-talkie hand sets that on ground Conductors use have a nominal range of 2-5 miles and have about 2 watts of power. The battery pack hand sets that MofW use have a supposed range of 10 miles and have about 5 watts of power. The radio sets used on locomotives and high rail vehicles have ranges upto 10 miles and 10 watts of power. The field radio stations have about 10 watts of power.
There can be quite a number of individuals conduction perfectly 'private' conversations on the road channel at the same times as they are all out of reception distance of the others that are holding their conversations.
Radio channels are SPECIFICALLY assigned to each carrier so as to prevent carriers in a particular area sharing the same channel. Radio 'skip' can make one a party to foreign line communications when atmospheric conditions are right.
"CYA" means only to establish something was done when accused of not doing it. In other words, an excuse after something goes wrong. Putting it on the radio establishes it for everyone before it is begun.
Suspect Balt is probably right about the range of radio communications, but I would suspect there is at least the possibility of their being recorded, if only 'locally' on the engine as part of the event data recorder stream.
(And yes, if retrieved from the EDR, the most likely use of a radio three-step call recording would either be some kind of charge or some form of CYA as a response...)
Most hand-held radios ("portables") are five watts these days, but the range is about right, depending on terrain.
Radio propogation conditions can be a real problem. One amateur radio repeater I use frequently is a good fifty miles away (using my base station radio - a handheld would not make the trip). Some days it booms right in - other days I can hardly hear it.
OTOH, hams do occasionally work "openings" that permit communications with other hams on two meters (about 20Mhz below railroad frequencies) hundreds of miles away.
I've talked hand-held to locomotive four or five miles before.
tree68 Most hand-held radios ("portables") are five watts these days, but the range is about right, depending on terrain. Radio propogation conditions can be a real problem. One amateur radio repeater I use frequently is a good fifty miles away (using my base station radio - a handheld would not make the trip). Some days it booms right in - other days I can hardly hear it. OTOH, hams do occasionally work "openings" that permit communications with other hams on two meters (about 20Mhz below railroad frequencies) hundreds of miles away. I've talked hand-held to locomotive four or five miles before.
Our hand helds aren't set up to put out the full 5 watts. I've been in situations where I've lost touch with the conductor as close as 80 cars back. While I agree that terrain and the type of antenna on the hand held make a difference, a few times it's been on level and clear line of sight.
It's been brought up about the radio problem, especially as they want to go to ever longer trains.
As to announcing the red zone over the radio. If we stop and I tell the conductor in the cab that I'm set and centered for him while he gets his gear on to go out and do whatever needs being done, announcing it over the radio does nothing for his safety. It's more for any manager that happens to be in the vicinity.
That's why I think it's more a CYA for the companies. If something happens, they can say they have rules and are enforcing them to the FRA. Should a red zone not be announced, they can't prove there was one.
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