Yes, I was thinking that the Amtrak passenger line voltage was 480 volts. And the change from station supply to engine supply explains the moments of "emergency" lighting when a train is about to start from its origin. Also, when cars are added or taken off enroute the supply from the engine must be interrupted.
Johnny
You can forget to unhook the pigtail on a trailer however the first time you forget to unhook that pigtail and get slapped on the back of the sleeper or cab you do remember to undo it all the time. We just have a little lip on the pigtail that goes into a spring loaded latched cover on the trailer. We just use 12 volt for power also.
EuclidI picture an improvement in which the connectors are coupled loosely into a mated and locked position, but with contacts not made. Then as a second step, a lever is thrown that engages the contacts like throwing a switch.
A few drawings, a prototype or two, a patent, and you could be a rich man. Or not.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Euclid I picture an improvement in which the connectors are coupled loosely into a mated and locked position, but with contacts not made. Then as a second step, a lever is thrown that engages the contacts like throwing a switch. A few drawings, a prototype or two, a patent, and you could be a rich man. Or not.
Euclid I picture an improvement in which the connectors are coupled loosely into a mated and locked position, but with contacts not made. Then as a second step, a lever is thrown that engages the contacts like throwing a switch.
Yes, there could be room for improvement in the connectors even if they have solved the earlier problems. Maybe it is time to introduce the fully automatic coupler with air and electrical connections that make when the automatic couplers join. I am curious as to what the current thinking about these ECP couplings is, particularly how the electrical connectors separate when the cars are uncoupled and pulled apart. Pulling on the cable to part the connectors seems just wrong. We are always told not to unplug by pulling on the cord.
EuclidWe are always told not to unplug by pulling on the cord.
Yet it's done thousands of times each day with brake hoses...
BaltACDFor HEP, the voltage is 480V, which seems to be a standard. The voltage is high enough to require the line to be de-energized when the train is changed from station power to head-end power.
480 V power can be much more deadly if mishandled than 120 or 240. At least in networked underground vaults where a 480 bus fire can and have cremated anyone near it. Unlike many ac faults which will extinquish at a zero crossing, a 480 volt fault can maintain its arc and the results can be fatal. I want no part of handling live 480 V connectors. The reasoning to deliven (shut off) before transitioning to/from shore power is because the locomotives three phase power is not in sync with the shore power. Synchronizing generators is similar to shifting gears without a clutch. Most manual transmissions today have synchronizers but if you remember grinding gears, think if each gear tooth being a wire at 480 volts differerential to its mating gear tooth. To mate they have to be turning at the same speed and at the same voltage. Otherwise, FAULT.
tree68 Euclid We are always told not to unplug by pulling on the cord. Yet it's done thousands of times each day with brake hoses...
Euclid We are always told not to unplug by pulling on the cord.
Yes it is perfected for brake hoses. It may also be perfected for the electrical connectors. They might have some type of steel rope woven in to provide the strength to resist the pullout force. If it has to work that way, I am sure it is doable and reliable. I would think these connectors would be shown on the manufacturer's websites
EuclidBut for now, I just want to know if connectors are posing a real problem or if problems are just being theorized.
It's a real problem backed up with a large file of anecdotal evidence. Yes, failure data on the test trains is collected. Yes, it is catagorized and evaluated, But, no, there isn't an electrical engineer on the spot to forensicley analyze each failure. It ECP as reliable as regular air brake? No. Not close. Are the railroads pouring money of their own into R&D? Not much - other than provide the platform for test trains.
What is the manufacturer doing about improving the design? I really don't know, but that's where the connector meets the juice, so to speak.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Euclid tree68 Euclid We are always told not to unplug by pulling on the cord. Yet it's done thousands of times each day with brake hoses... Yes it is perfected for brake hoses. It may also be perfected for the electrical connectors. They might have some type of steel rope woven in to provide the strength to resist the pullout force. If it has to work that way, I am sure it is doable and reliable. I would think these connectors would be shown on the manufacturer's websites
From what I remember of pictures of the connector, it is designed for pull-aparts, but most of the problems are from dirt and moisture causing poor connections.
They are trying to push quite a bit of power down that trainline. I would concentrate on that as well as the connector itself.
oltmannd Euclid But for now, I just want to know if connectors are posing a real problem or if problems are just being theorized. It's a real problem backed up with a large file of anecdotal evidence. Yes, failure data on the test trains is collected. Yes, it is catagorized and evaluated, But, no, there isn't an electrical engineer on the spot to forensicley analyze each failure. It ECP as reliable as regular air brake? No. Not close. Are the railroads pouring money of their own into R&D? Not much - other than provide the platform for test trains. What is the manufacturer doing about improving the design? I really don't know, but that's where the connector meets the juice, so to speak.
Euclid But for now, I just want to know if connectors are posing a real problem or if problems are just being theorized.
I am not asking for forensic analysis, just a decription of the problem. If it is a real problem backed up with a large file of anectotal evidence, as you say, then let's see the evidence. You make it sound as though ECP is still on the drawing board and being tentatively evaluated by just U.S. railroads for possible use in the future, but only after much more development. I wonder if that is the way that Rio Tinto would describe it.
You say that ECP is nowhere near as reliable as the regular air brake. Really? Give me an example of what you mean. How is ECP less reliable than regular air brakes?
Euclid oltmannd Euclid But for now, I just want to know if connectors are posing a real problem or if problems are just being theorized. It's a real problem backed up with a large file of anecdotal evidence. Yes, failure data on the test trains is collected. Yes, it is catagorized and evaluated, But, no, there isn't an electrical engineer on the spot to forensicley analyze each failure. It ECP as reliable as regular air brake? No. Not close. Are the railroads pouring money of their own into R&D? Not much - other than provide the platform for test trains. What is the manufacturer doing about improving the design? I really don't know, but that's where the connector meets the juice, so to speak. I am not asking for forencic analysis, just a decription of the problem. If it is a real problem backed up with a large file of anectotal evidence, as you say, then let's see the evidence. You make it sound as though ECP is still on the drawing board and being tentatively evaluated by just U.S. railroads for possible use in the future, but only after much more development. I wonder if that is the way that Rio Tinto would describe it. You say that ECP is nowhere near as reliable as the regular air brake. Really? Give me an example of what you mean. How is ECP less reliable than regular air brakes?
I am not asking for forencic analysis, just a decription of the problem. If it is a real problem backed up with a large file of anectotal evidence, as you say, then let's see the evidence. You make it sound as though ECP is still on the drawing board and being tentatively evaluated by just U.S. railroads for possible use in the future, but only after much more development. I wonder if that is the way that Rio Tinto would describe it.
Rio Tinto is not involved in US style railroading and as such is a invalid example of operation.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Euclid oltmannd Euclid But for now, I just want to know if connectors are posing a real problem or if problems are just being theorized. It's a real problem backed up with a large file of anecdotal evidence. Yes, failure data on the test trains is collected. Yes, it is catagorized and evaluated, But, no, there isn't an electrical engineer on the spot to forensicley analyze each failure. It ECP as reliable as regular air brake? No. Not close. Are the railroads pouring money of their own into R&D? Not much - other than provide the platform for test trains. What is the manufacturer doing about improving the design? I really don't know, but that's where the connector meets the juice, so to speak. I am not asking for forencic analysis, just a decription of the problem. If it is a real problem backed up with a large file of anectotal evidence, as you say, then let's see the evidence. You make it sound as though ECP is still on the drawing board and being tentatively evaluated by just U.S. railroads for possible use in the future, but only after much more development. I wonder if that is the way that Rio Tinto would describe it. You say that ECP is nowhere near as reliable as the regular air brake. Really? Give me an example of what you mean. How is ECP less reliable than regular air brakes? Rio Tinto is not involved in US style railroading and as such is a invalid example of operation.
What is it about the style differences that would invalidate the comparision between U.S. railroading and Rio Tinto railroading? We are talking about the operational effectivenss of ECP brakes in making this comparision.
EuclidWhat is it about the style differences that would invalidate the comparision between U.S. railroading and Rio Tinto railroading?
Rio Tinto is a captive (ie, non interchange railroad) point to point (mine to dock) and operates unit trains that don't get switched except for repairs and that is not very often (on a schedule of failure occurence). Also, if you stay current on Newswire, you have seen that they have started operating without an Engineer. This (the railroad, not automatic operation) would be similar to the four corners generating station line in New Mexico or the line in Quebec. Therefore, connectors do not get frequent operation.
See: http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/2999895/editpost.aspx
and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwrOHFHS-ms
and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzsr3J-54js
Electroliner 1935 Euclid What is it about the style differences that would invalidate the comparision between U.S. railroading and Rio Tinto railroading? Rio Tinto is a captive (ie, non interchange railroad) point to point (mine to dock) and operates unit trains that don't get switched except for repairs and that is not very often (on a schedule of failure occurence). Also, if you stay current on Newswire, you have seen that they have started operating without an Engineer. This (the railroad, not automatic operation) would be similar to the four corners generating station line in New Mexico or the line in Quebec.
Euclid What is it about the style differences that would invalidate the comparision between U.S. railroading and Rio Tinto railroading?
Rio Tinto is a captive (ie, non interchange railroad) point to point (mine to dock) and operates unit trains that don't get switched except for repairs and that is not very often (on a schedule of failure occurence). Also, if you stay current on Newswire, you have seen that they have started operating without an Engineer. This (the railroad, not automatic operation) would be similar to the four corners generating station line in New Mexico or the line in Quebec.
I understand that those differences in railroad application might affect the economics of choosing ECP versus conventional air brakes. However, this line of discussion was introduced by Don Oltmannd and his contention that ECP is less reliable than conventional air brakes. So we are comparing U.S. rail operations with Rio Tinto operations only in regard to brake system functioning to control trains. If ECP brakes work better than conventional air brakes for Rio Tinto, shouldn't the same be true for U.S. freight rail operations?
oltmannd If I were the king of ECP, I'd do my darnest to try to go wireless.
If I were the king of ECP, I'd do my darnest to try to go wireless.
i would suggest you take a drive down to Melbourne and have a discussion with the GEHarris folks to understand why their darnest couldn’t deliver. Was a bit of an embarrassment to the AAR as they held a spot open in the spec for GEHarris’ development that never materialized. There have been lots of developments in wireless since then, but I suspect potential suppliers are gun shy.
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/regulatory/nas-trb-ecp-study-inconclusive.html
EuclidIf ECP brakes work better than conventional air brakes for Rio Tinto, shouldn't the same be true for U.S. freight rail operations?
ECP brakes may be a truly wonderful thing when they work. What we're discussing here is impediments to having them work correctly, all of the time. Because if they can't be counted on to work when they are needed, they are worse than useless.
We also don't know why they work better for Rio Tinto than conventional brakes, and whether conditions for operation are comparable between the US and there. We know they are using unit trains. Anyone familiar with their profile?
Buslist oltmannd If I were the king of ECP, I'd do my darnest to try to go wireless. i would suggest you take a drive down to Melbourne and have a discussion with the GEHarris folks to understand why their darnest couldn’t deliver. Was a bit of an embarrassment to the AAR as they held a spot open in the spec for GEHarris’ development that never materialized. There have been lots of developments in wireless since then, but I suspect potential suppliers are gun shy.
Thanks. A trip to Melbourne FL? Nice beach!
Maybe the time horizon for a robust ECP system is a bit longer off. The current system seem like a flawed dead-end to me.
Maybe wireless is a bridge too far. How about an inductive data connection built into the air hose glad hand?
oltmannd Euclid But for now, I just want to know if connectors are posing a real problem or if problems are just being theorized. It's a real problem backed up with a large file of anecdotal evidence. Is ECP as reliable as regular air brake? No. Not close.
It's a real problem backed up with a large file of anecdotal evidence. Is ECP as reliable as regular air brake? No. Not close.
Don,
I am still waiting for some reference source, or other documentation, or even some anecdotal examples of this contention.
tree68We're still waiting for you to state the railroad experience you said you have. I suspect Don will come up with the information before you do.
Larry,
I wish you luck getting information about Bucky's experience. It's likely to be a very cold day in you-know-where before he reveals the truth. His unwillingness to answer any questions regarding his "experience" speaks volumes.
Norm
Norm48327 tree68 We're still waiting for you to state the railroad experience you said you have. I suspect Don will come up with the information before you do. Larry, I wish you luck getting information about Bucky's experience. It's likely to be a very cold day in you-know-where before he reveals the truth. His unwillingness to answer any questions regarding his "experience" speaks volumes.
tree68 We're still waiting for you to state the railroad experience you said you have. I suspect Don will come up with the information before you do.
Right in there with some tax returns.
Who cares about his experience? I certainly don't!
If you have an answer to his question, please provide it.
If you dissagree with his assertions, please address them with what you know.
If you only want to "feed the troll" as you all seem to assume he is, then you are the "bully" at fault here.
Why cannot we have a discussion where all can learn without the acrimony and bullying that constantly occur.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Euclid If it is a real problem backed up with a large file of anectotal evidence, as you say, then let's see the evidence.
Burned connectors. I've seen pix but I don't have any.
EuclidYou say that ECP is nowhere near as reliable as the regular air brake. Really? Give me an example of what you mean.
Can't get initial brake test done because of a bad connector.
Semper Vaporo Who cares about his experience? I certainly don't! If you have an answer to his question, please provide it. If you dissagree with his assertions, please address them with what you know. If you only want to "feed the troll" as you all seem to assume he is, then you are the "bully" at fault here. Why cannot we have a discussion where all can learn without the acrimony and bullying that constantly occur.
SV,
I don't think anyone here is trying to bully Euclid. He posts stuff he claims to have intimate knowledge of while posting considerable misinformation and anecdotal claims/evidence while consistently refusing to answer questions about his experience or proficiency in railroading.
If you feel it is wrong of several of us challenge him and ask for his qualifications you are entitled to that opinion. Others have different thoughts. We seek accurate information such as that Houston Ed and Jeff along with other long term experienced railroaders provide. I don't think it is bullying to ask Euclid about his qualifications/experience. His lack of willingness to share leads most to believe he has never been a 'rail".
I admit to having limited experience; I only what my track foreman friend and signal maintainers have taught me. I know absolutely nothing of train handling. I don't think it is in the least disrepective to ask Bucky to reveal his claims of having "experience".
IMO. being politically correct sucks.
oltmannd Buslist oltmannd If I were the king of ECP, I'd do my darnest to try to go wireless. i would suggest you take a drive down to Melbourne and have a discussion with the GEHarris folks to understand why their darnest couldn’t deliver. Was a bit of an embarrassment to the AAR as they held a spot open in the spec for GEHarris’ development that never materialized. There have been lots of developments in wireless since then, but I suspect potential suppliers are gun shy. Thanks. A trip to Melbourne FL? Nice beach!
Pretty much all of GEHarris research and testing into their wireless system was performed at their lab in Melbourne as well as limited road tests on the FEC.
Semper VaporoWhy cannot we have a discussion where all can learn without the acrimony and bullying that constantly occur.
I'm not sure what bullying occurs. A lot of information is exchanged. Most folks are more than willing to share the source of their knowledge.
[quote user="Semper Vaporo"]If you dissagree with his assertions, please address them with what you know.[quote]
Bucky is well-known for his 'yes, but' replies to factual information posted here. He certainly seems to regard the knowledge and input of folks who actually do know about the topic as secondary to his ideas of how things should be done.
Too many times the threads get circular - very much like a toddler who responds to every answer with "Why?"
In another thread, Bucky stated quite clearly that he had hands-on experience with an aspect of railroading. Several of us have expressed an interest in the nature of that experience. So far, he has yet to provide any smidgen of that information.
i agree with SV. I've read plenty of threads where Bucky is trying to make a point but it seems like no one is interested in moving the conversation forward, rather it's just the same old "that's the way it is".
Ok, if everyone thought like that, where would the internet be? Your car? Ekectricy?
Maybe I just keeping an open mind and think about the possibilities of what he's asking. Maybe I'm not preprogrammed to disagree with someone who just has a different idea.
I'm the new guy at work. I've had the lufers tell me I can't do it that way on many occasions. Guess what, my different idea let's me get it done faster and safer than the way they've always done it.
Open your minds, Bucky's questions might be grating sometimes but if you stop to think of an actual answer beyond that's just the way...
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
ruderunner i agree with SV. I've read plenty of threads where Bucky is trying to make a point but it seems like no one is interested in moving the conversation forward, rather it's just the same old "that's the way it is". Ok, if everyone thought like that, where would the internet be? Your car? Ekectricy? Maybe I just keeping an open mind and think about the possibilities of what he's asking. Maybe I'm not preprogrammed to disagree with someone who just has a different idea. I'm the new guy at work. I've had the lufers tell me I can't do it that way on many occasions. Guess what, my different idea let's me get it done faster and safer than the way they've always done it. Open your minds, Bucky's questions might be grating sometimes but if you stop to think of an actual answer beyond that's just the way...
ruderunnerI agree with SV. I've read plenty of threads where Bucky is trying to make a point but it seems like no one is interested in moving the conversation forward, rather it's just the same old "that's the way it is".
Alas, oftimes "that's the way it is" is because that's the way it is.
Bucky strikes me as an idealistic teen who simply can't believe that his wonderful idea won't work, even though things like the laws of physics say otherwise.
As well, there's his continued belief that ECP is a panacea that will cure all of the railroad's problems, if they'll just listen to what he says. If someone points out the technical and economical reasons why ECP isn't happening tomorrow, he just returns to how ECP will cure all the railroad's problems... "Yes, but..."
I can't say as I can remember very many (if any) times when he's conceded that he see's someone else's point.
And sometimes what he posts is simply factually wrong.
Deggesty ruderunner i agree with SV. I've read plenty of threads where Bucky is trying to make a point but it seems like no one is interested in moving the conversation forward, rather it's just the same old "that's the way it is". Ok, if everyone thought like that, where would the internet be? Your car? Ekectricy? Maybe I just keeping an open mind and think about the possibilities of what he's asking. Maybe I'm not preprogrammed to disagree with someone who just has a different idea. I'm the new guy at work. I've had the lufers tell me I can't do it that way on many occasions. Guess what, my different idea let's me get it done faster and safer than the way they've always done it. Open your minds, Bucky's questions might be grating sometimes but if you stop to think of an actual answer beyond that's just the way... Yes, but what is your take on his refusal to explicate on his claim to have had actual experience with railroad operation even though he has been asked several times?
Yes, but what is your take on his refusal to explicate on his claim to have had actual experience with railroad operation even though he has been asked several times?
Over the years of my career I was involved in a number of projects that had been tried and failed in previous times. The key to making them work when they were retried in the projects that I was involved with was that their was finally reliable technology the facilitated the working of the idea.
ECP is a valid idea that is still in search of reliable and economical technology to permit it to work in the 21st Century railroad enviornment. A enviornment that is predicated upon minimal manpower involvement and high level reliability. ECP technology has yet to attain the required levels of manpower involvement and operational reliability.
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