WASHINGTON — Federal investigators say that a CSX Transportation train that derailed in early August had 33 handbrakes applied when it started downgrade before derailing in central Pennsylvania. According to a preliminary report released today...
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/08/22-ntsb-csx-report
Brian Schmidt, Editor, Classic Trains magazine
I guess I'll withdraw my interest in buying a home near a busy railway line. My sister in law and husband just recently bought a beautiful home sandwiched between busy CN and CP mainline tracks.. They'll get a kick out of that picture (or maybe not)..
There's a house in Maple River, IA that sits close to the tracks. It's a former CNW section house and would be even closer except there used to be a branch line between it and the current main. The branch line has been turned into a bike trail. The location is where a decending grade somewhat lightens up going east. It has been the scene of a few derailments in these people's front yard.
The last one, a few years ago, was a stack train. The owner now has 3 or 4 "new" storage buildings (both 20' and 40' types) "delivered" by the railroad. Right to his front door. Talk about service.
Jeff
I suppose that (the CSX crash) was EHH's doing as well?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Interesting. Just showed up in my local news.
http://wwlp.com/2017/08/22/feds-say-brake-problems-preceded-derailment-in-pennsylvania/
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
richg1998Interesting. Just showed up in my local news. http://wwlp.com/2017/08/22/feds-say-brake-problems-preceded-derailment-in-pennsylvania/ Rich
Read the NTSB report in Post #1 not the media confused reading of the same report.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Why wouldn't this be Harrison's fault? He's micro managing CSX.
cprtrain Why wouldn't this be Harrison's fault? He's micro managing CSX.
But he's probably doing it by phone so when an order turns out to be wrong the local person is blamed and gets walked out.
I wonder who decided it would be a good idea to move the train with handbrakes applied? That is what "Retainers" are for!
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BigJim I wonder who decided it would be a good idea to move the train with handbrakes applied? That is what "Retainers" are for!
Handling a train down that grade has to have all sorts of special instructions in the timetable, no?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
BigJimI wonder who decided it would be a good idea to move the train with handbrakes applied? That is what "Retainers" are for!
When retainers are not a part of your training - you don't know how to use them. There are very, very few conductors on any part of CSX that EVER experienced railroading and the use of retainers in their working experience. That particular lack of training cannot be pinned to EHH.
oltmanndHandling a train down that grade has to have all sorts of special instructions in the timetable, no?
I would liken this to starting an automobile up a steep hill - with a standard transmission. Even the more experienced drivers will have a less than smooth start.
And today's drivers, with near zero experience with a standard, even, will have significant problems.
I would opine that the crew found themselves in a situation they had no experience with, and did what they thought was right. If they knew then what they know now, they might still have rolled down the hill with hand brakes still applied, but on different cars...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
A smooth start? Ah, yes, especially when you stalled the car after you started up the hill.
Johnny
DeggestyA smooth start? Ah, yes, especially when you stalled the car after you started up the hill.
While I eventually mastered the process - while learning it was much easier when the car had a hand applied and releasable emergency brake. There weren't enough feet to opeate the foot applied emergency brake.
It can’t be so uncommon for big trains to stop for some reason while coming down a long steep grade that the crew finds themselves unable to figure out how to re-start. I would think it is a well-known procedure.
So what was different about this restart that made the normal procedure unacceptable? Why didn’t they just restart with the routine process?
EuclidIt can’t be so uncommon for big trains to stop for some reason while coming down a long steep grade that the crew finds themselves unable to figure out how to re-start. I would think it is a well-known procedure. So what was different about this restart that made the normal procedure unacceptable? Why didn’t they just restart with the routine process?
Large block of empties on head end followed by heavy trailing tonnage.
The problem that has been suggested is that to start, you have to release the automatic brake, so every car goes to full release. You can't just partially release the brakes until the train starts to roll. So when the brakes fully release, the train quickly starts to roll. As it accelerates without any braking, it is heading toward the speed where air braking will not be able to slow it down.
At that point, it is running away. So the question is this: After the brakes release on the stopped train, what is the procedure for quickly getting braking back into effect before the speed rises too far?
This is what has been suggested here to deal with this: Before releasing the automatic brake, you have enough handbrakes set to hold the train. Then the engineer releases the automatic brake, and the conductor moves from car to car releasing handbrakes until the train starts to move.
That way, when the train starts to move, it still has a lot of braking force applied with the handbrakes. I have never heard of such a procedure until discussions about this wreck on this forum.
BaltACD Deggesty A smooth start? Ah, yes, especially when you stalled the car after you started up the hill. While I eventually mastered the process - while learning it was much easier when the car had a hand applied and releasable emergency brake. There weren't enough feet to opeate the foot applied emergency brake.
Deggesty A smooth start? Ah, yes, especially when you stalled the car after you started up the hill.
Euclid The problem that has been suggested is that to start, you have to release the automatic brake, so every car goes to full release. You can't just partially release the brakes until the train starts to roll. So when the brakes fully release, the train quickly starts to roll. As it accelerates without any braking, it is heading toward the speed where air braking will not be able to slow it down. At that point, it is running away. So the question is this: After the brakes release on the stopped train, what is the procedure for quickly getting braking back into effect before the speed rises too far? This is what has been suggested here to deal with this: Before releasing the automatic brake, you have enough handbrakes set to hold the train. Then the engineer releases the automatic brake, and the conductor moves from car to car releasing handbrakes until the train starts to move. That way, when the train starts to move, it still has a lot of braking force applied with the handbrakes. I have never heard of such a procedure until discussions about this wreck on this forum.
Suffice it say, there was a way to get this train down the said hill in one piece and not derailed. Proper training would have gone a long way!!!
oltmannd Handling a train down that grade has to have all sorts of special instructions in the timetable, no?
I'll let you guys fight it out for a few days.Now, I'm off to that one particular harbor. Fins up ~~~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~~~
Deggesty BaltACD Deggesty A smooth start? Ah, yes, especially when you stalled the car after you started up the hill. While I eventually mastered the process - while learning it was much easier when the car had a hand applied and releasable emergency brake. There weren't enough feet to opeate the foot applied emergency brake. Ah, you should have tried it in a '38 Chevy, with the starter on the floor to the right and above the gas pedal--and a non-working hand brake. Have you ever multi-tasked with your feet?
BaltACD Deggesty A smooth start? Ah, yes, especially when you stalled the car after you started up the hill. While I eventually mastered the process - while learning it was much easier when the car had a hand applied and releasable emergency brake. There weren't enough feet to opeate the foot applied emergency brake. Ah, you should have tried it in a '38 Chevy, with the starter on the floor to the right and above the gas pedal--and a non-working hand brake. Have you ever multi-tasked with your feet?
My Dad tought me how to start a manual transmission car on a hill when we had back roads with little traffic. I'm not sure how I would do with todays traffic. But before we knew of this mans bad deeds, I loved this routine.
With apologies for the source,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOmayx2JBs8
BigJimSuffice it say, there was a way to get this train down the said hill in one piece and not derailed. Proper training would have gone a long way!!!
See this video from Southern RR on how to take a coal train down Saluda hill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IABM8UPplY
BigJim oltmannd Handling a train down that grade has to have all sorts of special instructions in the timetable, no? Not really. They brought loaded 150 -170 car coal trains without hand brakes straight down the 1.7% grade out of Bluefield, WVa. for years with very few problems. I'll let you guys fight it out for a few days. Now, I'm off to that one particular harbor. Fins up ~~~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~~~
Not really. They brought loaded 150 -170 car coal trains without hand brakes straight down the 1.7% grade out of Bluefield, WVa. for years with very few problems.
I'll let you guys fight it out for a few days.
Now, I'm off to that one particular harbor. Fins up ~~~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~~~
CSX Baltimore Division Timetable - Keystone Sub SI 5559 STEEP GRADE (1% OR MORE) TRAIN HANDLING Brake Pipe Pressure – The brake pipe pressure on the rear of eastward loadedtrains must be 75lbs or higher prior to passing over summitat Sand Patch. A running release of the train brake will not be made oneastward freight trains operating in this territory. When the total brake pipe reduction exceeds 18lbs on anyeastward freight train operating Sand Patch to Hyndman, thetrain will be stopped. 30% hand brakes will be applied to thehead end of the train to hold it on the grade during the recharge procedure. If needed, hand brakes may be left on the train to supplement air brakes while descending the rest of the grade. Avoid leaving hand brakes on any empty cars. Use of pressure maintaining valves –The controlling unit of the lead locomotive consist must be equipped with an operative pressure maintaining feature. MPH. Then gradually reduce throttle and apply dynamic brake in such a manner to have speed between 25 and 30 MPH, passing BF 208.0. BF 191.1 to 202.0– Approaching BF 202.0, the grade becomes less severe and the speed restriction at BF 202.1 is reduced from 35 MPH to 30 MPH. Therefore, watch deceleration rate very closely, and apply power, if necessary, to keep speed between 25 and 30 MPH between BF 202.0 and BF 198.0. In the vicinity of BF 197.0, grade again increases and train speed will generally begin to increase. If this occurs, it may be necessary to apply dynamic brake or throttle to Hyndman BF 191.0. Then if conditions permit, release train brakes and handle the train in accordance with good train handling procedures. BF 202.1 to 208.0– In the vicinity of BF 207.0, train speed will gradually increase due to the heavier grade. When this occurs, make additional light brake applications, if necessary, modulating the dynamic brake to hold speed between 32 and 34 MPH, between BF 206.8 and BF 202.1. Eastward trains exceeding 19,001 tons must descend the grade from Sand Patch, BF 211.0 to Hyndman, BF 190.2 at speeds not exceeding 15 MPH. Dynamic brake requirements: When possible, eastward trains having to add additional power to the head end of their train in order to comply with dynamic brake axles requirements to descend a grade must do so prior to passing Yoder, BF 218.4. If power cannot be added west of Yoder, the train must be properly secured while air brake test is performed. Train handling – Stretch braking is permitted for Eastward Trains: Cresting grade at Sand Patch and stopping and starting train Continuous Movement – As train crests grade, continue to use power and make a minimum reduction between 20 to 22
5559 STEEP GRADE (1% OR MORE) TRAIN HANDLING
Brake Pipe Pressure –
The brake pipe pressure on the rear of eastward loadedtrains must be 75lbs or higher prior to passing over summitat Sand Patch.
A running release of the train brake will not be made oneastward freight trains operating in this territory.
When the total brake pipe reduction exceeds 18lbs on anyeastward freight train operating Sand Patch to Hyndman, thetrain will be stopped. 30% hand brakes will be applied to thehead end of the train to hold it on the grade during the recharge procedure.
If needed, hand brakes may be left on the train to supplement air brakes while descending the rest of the grade. Avoid leaving hand brakes on any empty cars.
Use of pressure maintaining valves –The controlling unit of the lead locomotive consist must be equipped with an operative pressure maintaining feature.
MPH. Then gradually reduce throttle and apply dynamic brake in such a manner to have speed between 25 and 30 MPH, passing BF 208.0. BF 191.1 to 202.0– Approaching BF 202.0, the grade becomes less severe and the speed restriction at BF 202.1 is reduced from 35 MPH to 30 MPH. Therefore, watch deceleration rate very closely, and apply power, if necessary, to keep speed between 25 and 30 MPH between BF 202.0 and BF 198.0. In the vicinity of BF 197.0, grade again increases and train speed will generally begin to increase. If this occurs, it may be necessary to apply dynamic brake or throttle to Hyndman BF 191.0. Then if conditions permit, release train brakes and handle the train in accordance with good train handling procedures.
BF 202.1 to 208.0– In the vicinity of BF 207.0, train speed will gradually increase due to the heavier grade. When this occurs, make additional light brake applications, if necessary, modulating the dynamic brake to hold speed between 32 and 34 MPH, between BF 206.8 and BF 202.1.
Eastward trains exceeding 19,001 tons must descend the grade from Sand Patch, BF 211.0 to Hyndman, BF 190.2 at speeds not exceeding 15 MPH.
Dynamic brake requirements: When possible, eastward trains having to add additional power to the head end of their train in order to comply with dynamic brake axles requirements to descend a grade must do so prior to passing Yoder, BF 218.4. If power cannot be added west of Yoder, the train must be properly secured while air brake test is performed.
Train handling – Stretch braking is permitted for Eastward Trains: Cresting grade at Sand Patch and stopping and starting train Continuous Movement – As train crests grade, continue to use power and make a minimum reduction between 20 to 22
BigJim Euclid The problem that has been suggested is that to start, you have to release the automatic brake, so every car goes to full release. You can't just partially release the brakes until the train starts to roll. So when the brakes fully release, the train quickly starts to roll. As it accelerates without any braking, it is heading toward the speed where air braking will not be able to slow it down. At that point, it is running away. So the question is this: After the brakes release on the stopped train, what is the procedure for quickly getting braking back into effect before the speed rises too far? This is what has been suggested here to deal with this: Before releasing the automatic brake, you have enough handbrakes set to hold the train. Then the engineer releases the automatic brake, and the conductor moves from car to car releasing handbrakes until the train starts to move. That way, when the train starts to move, it still has a lot of braking force applied with the handbrakes. I have never heard of such a procedure until discussions about this wreck on this forum. As usual, you have absolutely NO IDEA what the hell you are talking about!!! And, at this point in time I do not have the time to explain it to you. Suffice it say, there was a way to get this train down the said hill in one piece and not derailed. Proper training would have gone a long way!!!
As usual, you have absolutely NO IDEA what the hell you are talking about!!! And, at this point in time I do not have the time to explain it to you.
I think you must be misunderstanding what I said. I have not made any assertion here. That entire statement is only my summation of what others have said about the reason for how the train was handled. In the middle, I ask one question, and am still waiting for the answer. At the end, I say I have never heard of the procedure until this wreck being discussed here.
When I worked this division it was common practice to leave handbrakes applied after an emergency stop occurred. I think people did not want to have to release them and then reapply them if a second stop was made. Sometimes you cannot find the cause of an emergency application of the brakes. I once had a train go into emergency three times going down the hill before a parted hose was found. The first two times it must have bounced up on a crossing or switch enough to trigger the brakes without parting completely.
I never thought it was good to leave the handbrakes applied. Unless you put the hand brakes on lightly the wheels will overheat or slide. It also makes it hard to handle the train smoothly. The grade on Sandpatch is not constant. With a given amount of braking the train will slow or even stop unless power is applied to pull it through certain areas. In other areas dynamic braking must be added to control the speed. Switching from power to dynamics is hard to do smoothly with a large block of handbrakes applied on the headend. When you reduce power the handbakes will slow the headend, causing the rearend to bunch up,perhaps roughly enough to derail something.
When a train is stopped on the grade and the brake system needs to be recharged handbrakes must be applied to hold it. Once the brake system is fully charged a minimum reduction plus the independent engine brake will hold most trains while the handbrakes are released. The train can usually be started by releasing the engine brake and applying power. If not then retainers would be good to use, but as has been mentioned almost nobody knows how to use them.
It might be time for mandatory retainer training for all railroaders on the Sandpatch after this one. If you think the NTSB is not going to look at how the trains were being operated aka with handbrakes applied to even make it down the grade your nuts. Look for massive changes Nationwide on how heavy trains are run down major passes and possibly FRA requirements on training.
mvlandsw When I worked this division it was common practice to leave handbrakes applied after an emergency stop occurred. I think people did not want to have to release them and then reapply them if a second stop was made. Sometimes you cannot find the cause of an emergency application of the brakes. I once had a train go into emergency three times going down the hill before a parted hose was found. The first two times it must have bounced up on a crossing or switch enough to trigger the brakes without parting completely. I never thought it was good to leave the handbrakes applied. Unless you put the hand brakes on lightly the wheels will overheat or slide. It also makes it hard to handle the train smoothly. The grade on Sandpatch is not constant. With a given amount of braking the train will slow or even stop unless power is applied to pull it through certain areas. In other areas dynamic braking must be added to control the speed. Switching from power to dynamics is hard to do smoothly with a large block of handbrakes applied on the headend. When you reduce power the handbakes will slow the headend, causing the rearend to bunch up,perhaps roughly enough to derail something. When a train is stopped on the grade and the brake system needs to be recharged handbrakes must be applied to hold it. Once the brake system is fully charged a minimum reduction plus the independent engine brake will hold most trains while the handbrakes are released. The train can usually be started by releasing the engine brake and applying power. If not then retainers would be good to use, but as has been mentioned almost nobody knows how to use them.
Mvlandsw,
Thanks for that clear and thoughtful explanation, including the procedure of starting the train on this type of down grade and also the practice of leaving handbrakes applied after restarting. Particularly interesting is your explanation that the apparent reasoning was that if you had air trouble once, you might have it again; and leaving the handbrakes applied after the first trouble will save the effort needed to set them all over again for the second trouble. I had never considered that as being the reason, but it makes perfect sense. Although, as you say, it can cause trouble if the brakes are applied too tightly.
But that raises a question. If the handbrakes are loose enough to leave set while pulling, are they tight enough for the securement when the train was stopped?
I recall some discussion within the TSB of Canada about the variation in securement effectiveness of handbrakes depending on how tight they were set, and also the condition of the brake. I have never seen any sort of specification for tightness regarding a requirement to set a handbrake.
EuclidIn the middle, I ask one question, and am still waiting for the answer.
I trust you have observed that your answer can be found in the material that BaltACD posted at 9:49.
RME Euclid In the middle, I ask one question, and am still waiting for the answer. I trust you have observed that your answer can be found in the material that BaltACD posted at 9:49.
Euclid In the middle, I ask one question, and am still waiting for the answer.
Could it be that train weight and length, especially in mountain districts, is reaching/surpassing the practical limits of brake equipment as it is currently?
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