oltmanndAn 18,000 ton train on a two percent grade exerts roughly 720,000# of force in the downhill direction. Maximum DB force allowed from the head end is about 240,000# (roughly 10,000# for each "SD40-2" equivalent axle). Even if you had an equivalent amount on the rear, quite a bit of the braking force for this train is going to have to come from air. Still don't get the "use handbrakes" instruction. This isn't the 19th century....
Even if you had an equivalent amount on the rear, quite a bit of the braking force for this train is going to have to come from air.
Still don't get the "use handbrakes" instruction. This isn't the 19th century....
2 locos on-line @ 6 axles each @10,000 lbs. DB braking force per axle = 120,000 lbs. <<< the 720,000 downward push per Don's post. Even with the brakes locked-up on all 5 units = 600K < 720K. As Al Krug observed, even starting at sitting still, the train weight is just going to push those units down the hill.
Locomotive assignments and usage are the responsibility of management. Either EHH ordered too few operating locomotives, or someone screwed up otherwise appropriate orders.
- PDN.
https://ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/DCA17FR011-prelim-report.aspx
The report doesn't mention where the train initially stopped account air issues. I'll speculate that it was stopped near the summit of Sand Patch, which is milepost BF 211.0 as the report mentions that the engineer moved his controls from power to dynamic braking on three separate occasions as speed reached upto 30 MPH. The derailment happened near the bottom of the grade at Hyndman which is BF 190.2
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
An 18,000 ton train on a two percent grade exerts roughly 720,000# of force in the downhill direction. Maximum DB force allowed from the head end is about 240,000# (roughly 10,000# for each "SD40-2" equivalent axle).
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Randy Stahl I think Balt is right. Poor training, poor job briefing between the crew and thier supervisors. This crew was setup to fail.
I think Balt is right. Poor training, poor job briefing between the crew and thier supervisors. This crew was setup to fail.
From:
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blogs/william-vantuono/whats-going-on-at-csx.html
"EHH eliminated Road Foreman of Engines positions"
The only supervision that might actually know something about operating a train. The train crew was on their own, most likely.
BaltACD Train handling – Stretch braking is permitted for Eastward Trains: Cresting grade at Sand Patch and stopping and starting train Continuous Movement – As train crests grade, continue to use power and make a minimum reduction between 20 to 22
Train handling – Stretch braking is permitted for Eastward Trains: Cresting grade at Sand Patch and stopping and starting train Continuous Movement – As train crests grade, continue to use power and make a minimum reduction between 20 to 22
Thanks for sharing this BaltACD ... I have not heard of the term Stretch braking before some interesting reading on the topic out there. Probably worthy of its own thread.
I don’t see evidence for any of those points. There is no evidence that the crew even failed, let alone was “set up to fail.”
The details in the NTSB report leave a lot of questions unanswered so far.
I am not sure what problem the crew believed they were facing. Starting a train that has stopped on a down grade takes special skill, but it is done successfully every day.
We actually do not know why they were pulling the train with handbrakes dragging, since there are two distinctly different reasons that would explain it.
We also do not know if the set hand brakes had anything to do with causing the derailment.
We know about the weight distribution in the train makeup, but we don’t know if better train makeup would have prevented the derailment.
We do know that the train derailed when it went from power into dynamic braking. So the derailment happened right at the commencement of dynamic braking, which would increase buff force throughout the train. But this only suggests a possible relationship between excess buff force and the derailment.
We also don’t know if dynamic braking was excessive or normal.
It seems that excess buff force caused the first car to derail, but we don’t know that was the cause. The report cites wheel damage from dragging cars with handbrakes set. Did the first car to derail do so because of being empty and having so much tonnage behind it that the buff force maximized by dynamic braking lifted the wheels off the rail –or—did it derail because the wheels had been burned or broken from sliding with handbrakes set?
BaltACD Euclid BaltACD Euclid Why not just secure the train, fix the air brake problem, release the handbrakes, and go? Why use dragging hand brakes or retainers to come down the hill? If you don't need retainers for every day operation, why do you need them at all? In your scenario, once all air brakes are released and the 'tipping point' hand brake is released the Independent engine brakes WILL NOT hold the train with its tonnage on the down grade and as Jackie Gleason would have said 'Away we GO!'. That is not what happens in my scenario because the procedure you describe is not what is done as the train is started down the hill. The train does not have only the independent brakes applied when the handbrakes are released. It does have the independent applied, but it also has a light service application of the automatic brake. Together, they hold the train as all of the handbrakes are released. Once the handbrakes are released, the train is still not moving. Then the engineer releases the independent brake. If the train still does not move, the engineer applies power and starts the train by pulling it against the light application of the automatic brakes. So the train does not go galloping away as the final handbrakes are released. Before the train begins to move, its securement is handed over to the independent and automatic air brakes, and then all the handbrakes are released. Therefore, there is no reason to leave the handbrakes set to control the train as it continues down the hill. That is your train in your mind. That is not reality.
Euclid BaltACD Euclid Why not just secure the train, fix the air brake problem, release the handbrakes, and go? Why use dragging hand brakes or retainers to come down the hill? If you don't need retainers for every day operation, why do you need them at all? In your scenario, once all air brakes are released and the 'tipping point' hand brake is released the Independent engine brakes WILL NOT hold the train with its tonnage on the down grade and as Jackie Gleason would have said 'Away we GO!'. That is not what happens in my scenario because the procedure you describe is not what is done as the train is started down the hill. The train does not have only the independent brakes applied when the handbrakes are released. It does have the independent applied, but it also has a light service application of the automatic brake. Together, they hold the train as all of the handbrakes are released. Once the handbrakes are released, the train is still not moving. Then the engineer releases the independent brake. If the train still does not move, the engineer applies power and starts the train by pulling it against the light application of the automatic brakes. So the train does not go galloping away as the final handbrakes are released. Before the train begins to move, its securement is handed over to the independent and automatic air brakes, and then all the handbrakes are released. Therefore, there is no reason to leave the handbrakes set to control the train as it continues down the hill.
BaltACD Euclid Why not just secure the train, fix the air brake problem, release the handbrakes, and go? Why use dragging hand brakes or retainers to come down the hill? If you don't need retainers for every day operation, why do you need them at all? In your scenario, once all air brakes are released and the 'tipping point' hand brake is released the Independent engine brakes WILL NOT hold the train with its tonnage on the down grade and as Jackie Gleason would have said 'Away we GO!'.
Euclid Why not just secure the train, fix the air brake problem, release the handbrakes, and go? Why use dragging hand brakes or retainers to come down the hill? If you don't need retainers for every day operation, why do you need them at all?
In your scenario, once all air brakes are released and the 'tipping point' hand brake is released the Independent engine brakes WILL NOT hold the train with its tonnage on the down grade and as Jackie Gleason would have said 'Away we GO!'.
That is not what happens in my scenario because the procedure you describe is not what is done as the train is started down the hill. The train does not have only the independent brakes applied when the handbrakes are released.
It does have the independent applied, but it also has a light service application of the automatic brake. Together, they hold the train as all of the handbrakes are released. Once the handbrakes are released, the train is still not moving. Then the engineer releases the independent brake. If the train still does not move, the engineer applies power and starts the train by pulling it against the light application of the automatic brakes. So the train does not go galloping away as the final handbrakes are released.
Before the train begins to move, its securement is handed over to the independent and automatic air brakes, and then all the handbrakes are released. Therefore, there is no reason to leave the handbrakes set to control the train as it continues down the hill.
That is your train in your mind. That is not reality.
No, what I described most certainly is the way trains are started down grades. Read the NTSB report. It says what the engineer did in starting the train, and he did not just rely on the independent brakes plus handbrakes, as you say is normal.
It does have the independent applied, but it also has a light service application of the automatic brake. Together, they hold the train as all of the handbrakes are released. Once the handbrakes are released, the train is still not moving. Then the engineer releases the independent brake. If the train still does not move, the engineer applies power and starts the train by pulling it against the light application of the automatic brakes.
So the train does not go galloping away as the final handbrakes are released. Before the train begins to move, its securement is handed over to the independent and automatic air brakes, and then all the handbrakes are released. Therefore, there is no reason to leave the handbrakes set to control the train as it continues down the hill.
EuclidWhy not just secure the train, fix the air brake problem, release the handbrakes, and go? Why use dragging hand brakes or retainers to come down the hill? If you don't need retainers for every day operation, why do you need them at all?
Why not just secure the train, fix the air brake problem, release the handbrakes, and go? Why use dragging hand brakes or retainers to come down the hill? If you don't need retainers for every day operation, why do you need them at all?
oltmanndThanks. That's the kind of stuff I was expecting would be there. Very strange (to me, anyway) that handbrakes would be used rather than retainers after being stopped. Turn up the right number of retainers, apply the brakes, knock off the handbrakes, release and go....
While I tend to agree about Retainers. Their use, over the generations, has become so rare - most Conductors coming out of REDI training probably never had their use emphasized in their training, and thus don't think about using them. With all the 'new hire' Trainmasters coming on the property - their operations training is basically equivalent to the Conductors REDI training. With many of the Engineers having recently been 'promoted' from Conductor to Engineer you end up with the blind leading the blind leading the blind.
During my final years I had the observation that many of the Conductors coming on the property were from the sect of the mechanically declined and didn't understand the basic mechanical principles that are involved in the construction and repairs of cars and equipment. The retiring group of T&E personnel were in many cases 'old farm boys', and had grown up around farm machienry and how to maintain and repair it - today's T&E have grown up around iPads, iPhones and computers and know virtually nothing about things mechanical.
BaltACD BigJim oltmannd Handling a train down that grade has to have all sorts of special instructions in the timetable, no? Not really. They brought loaded 150 -170 car coal trains without hand brakes straight down the 1.7% grade out of Bluefield, WVa. for years with very few problems. I'll let you guys fight it out for a few days. Now, I'm off to that one particular harbor. Fins up ~~~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~~~ CSX Baltimore Division Timetable - Keystone Sub SI 5559 STEEP GRADE (1% OR MORE) TRAIN HANDLING Brake Pipe Pressure – The brake pipe pressure on the rear of eastward loadedtrains must be 75lbs or higher prior to passing over summitat Sand Patch. A running release of the train brake will not be made oneastward freight trains operating in this territory. When the total brake pipe reduction exceeds 18lbs on anyeastward freight train operating Sand Patch to Hyndman, thetrain will be stopped. 30% hand brakes will be applied to thehead end of the train to hold it on the grade during the recharge procedure. If needed, hand brakes may be left on the train to supplement air brakes while descending the rest of the grade. Avoid leaving hand brakes on any empty cars. Use of pressure maintaining valves –The controlling unit of the lead locomotive consist must be equipped with an operative pressure maintaining feature. MPH. Then gradually reduce throttle and apply dynamic brake in such a manner to have speed between 25 and 30 MPH, passing BF 208.0. BF 191.1 to 202.0– Approaching BF 202.0, the grade becomes less severe and the speed restriction at BF 202.1 is reduced from 35 MPH to 30 MPH. Therefore, watch deceleration rate very closely, and apply power, if necessary, to keep speed between 25 and 30 MPH between BF 202.0 and BF 198.0. In the vicinity of BF 197.0, grade again increases and train speed will generally begin to increase. If this occurs, it may be necessary to apply dynamic brake or throttle to Hyndman BF 191.0. Then if conditions permit, release train brakes and handle the train in accordance with good train handling procedures. BF 202.1 to 208.0– In the vicinity of BF 207.0, train speed will gradually increase due to the heavier grade. When this occurs, make additional light brake applications, if necessary, modulating the dynamic brake to hold speed between 32 and 34 MPH, between BF 206.8 and BF 202.1. Eastward trains exceeding 19,001 tons must descend the grade from Sand Patch, BF 211.0 to Hyndman, BF 190.2 at speeds not exceeding 15 MPH. Dynamic brake requirements: When possible, eastward trains having to add additional power to the head end of their train in order to comply with dynamic brake axles requirements to descend a grade must do so prior to passing Yoder, BF 218.4. If power cannot be added west of Yoder, the train must be properly secured while air brake test is performed. Train handling – Stretch braking is permitted for Eastward Trains: Cresting grade at Sand Patch and stopping and starting train Continuous Movement – As train crests grade, continue to use power and make a minimum reduction between 20 to 22
BigJim oltmannd Handling a train down that grade has to have all sorts of special instructions in the timetable, no? Not really. They brought loaded 150 -170 car coal trains without hand brakes straight down the 1.7% grade out of Bluefield, WVa. for years with very few problems. I'll let you guys fight it out for a few days. Now, I'm off to that one particular harbor. Fins up ~~~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~~~
oltmannd Handling a train down that grade has to have all sorts of special instructions in the timetable, no?
Handling a train down that grade has to have all sorts of special instructions in the timetable, no?
Not really. They brought loaded 150 -170 car coal trains without hand brakes straight down the 1.7% grade out of Bluefield, WVa. for years with very few problems.
I'll let you guys fight it out for a few days.
Now, I'm off to that one particular harbor. Fins up ~~~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~~~
CSX Baltimore Division Timetable - Keystone Sub SI 5559 STEEP GRADE (1% OR MORE) TRAIN HANDLING Brake Pipe Pressure – The brake pipe pressure on the rear of eastward loadedtrains must be 75lbs or higher prior to passing over summitat Sand Patch. A running release of the train brake will not be made oneastward freight trains operating in this territory. When the total brake pipe reduction exceeds 18lbs on anyeastward freight train operating Sand Patch to Hyndman, thetrain will be stopped. 30% hand brakes will be applied to thehead end of the train to hold it on the grade during the recharge procedure. If needed, hand brakes may be left on the train to supplement air brakes while descending the rest of the grade. Avoid leaving hand brakes on any empty cars. Use of pressure maintaining valves –The controlling unit of the lead locomotive consist must be equipped with an operative pressure maintaining feature. MPH. Then gradually reduce throttle and apply dynamic brake in such a manner to have speed between 25 and 30 MPH, passing BF 208.0. BF 191.1 to 202.0– Approaching BF 202.0, the grade becomes less severe and the speed restriction at BF 202.1 is reduced from 35 MPH to 30 MPH. Therefore, watch deceleration rate very closely, and apply power, if necessary, to keep speed between 25 and 30 MPH between BF 202.0 and BF 198.0. In the vicinity of BF 197.0, grade again increases and train speed will generally begin to increase. If this occurs, it may be necessary to apply dynamic brake or throttle to Hyndman BF 191.0. Then if conditions permit, release train brakes and handle the train in accordance with good train handling procedures. BF 202.1 to 208.0– In the vicinity of BF 207.0, train speed will gradually increase due to the heavier grade. When this occurs, make additional light brake applications, if necessary, modulating the dynamic brake to hold speed between 32 and 34 MPH, between BF 206.8 and BF 202.1. Eastward trains exceeding 19,001 tons must descend the grade from Sand Patch, BF 211.0 to Hyndman, BF 190.2 at speeds not exceeding 15 MPH. Dynamic brake requirements: When possible, eastward trains having to add additional power to the head end of their train in order to comply with dynamic brake axles requirements to descend a grade must do so prior to passing Yoder, BF 218.4. If power cannot be added west of Yoder, the train must be properly secured while air brake test is performed. Train handling – Stretch braking is permitted for Eastward Trains: Cresting grade at Sand Patch and stopping and starting train Continuous Movement – As train crests grade, continue to use power and make a minimum reduction between 20 to 22
5559 STEEP GRADE (1% OR MORE) TRAIN HANDLING
Brake Pipe Pressure –
The brake pipe pressure on the rear of eastward loadedtrains must be 75lbs or higher prior to passing over summitat Sand Patch.
A running release of the train brake will not be made oneastward freight trains operating in this territory.
When the total brake pipe reduction exceeds 18lbs on anyeastward freight train operating Sand Patch to Hyndman, thetrain will be stopped. 30% hand brakes will be applied to thehead end of the train to hold it on the grade during the recharge procedure.
If needed, hand brakes may be left on the train to supplement air brakes while descending the rest of the grade. Avoid leaving hand brakes on any empty cars.
Use of pressure maintaining valves –The controlling unit of the lead locomotive consist must be equipped with an operative pressure maintaining feature.
MPH. Then gradually reduce throttle and apply dynamic brake in such a manner to have speed between 25 and 30 MPH, passing BF 208.0. BF 191.1 to 202.0– Approaching BF 202.0, the grade becomes less severe and the speed restriction at BF 202.1 is reduced from 35 MPH to 30 MPH. Therefore, watch deceleration rate very closely, and apply power, if necessary, to keep speed between 25 and 30 MPH between BF 202.0 and BF 198.0. In the vicinity of BF 197.0, grade again increases and train speed will generally begin to increase. If this occurs, it may be necessary to apply dynamic brake or throttle to Hyndman BF 191.0. Then if conditions permit, release train brakes and handle the train in accordance with good train handling procedures.
BF 202.1 to 208.0– In the vicinity of BF 207.0, train speed will gradually increase due to the heavier grade. When this occurs, make additional light brake applications, if necessary, modulating the dynamic brake to hold speed between 32 and 34 MPH, between BF 206.8 and BF 202.1.
Eastward trains exceeding 19,001 tons must descend the grade from Sand Patch, BF 211.0 to Hyndman, BF 190.2 at speeds not exceeding 15 MPH.
Dynamic brake requirements: When possible, eastward trains having to add additional power to the head end of their train in order to comply with dynamic brake axles requirements to descend a grade must do so prior to passing Yoder, BF 218.4. If power cannot be added west of Yoder, the train must be properly secured while air brake test is performed.
Thanks. That's the kind of stuff I was expecting would be there. Very strange (to me, anyway) that handbrakes would be used rather than retainers after being stopped. Turn up the right number of retainers, apply the brakes, knock off the handbrakes, release and go....
Randy Stahl RME Be interesting to see if there are other methods, perhaps using handheld gauging equipment, to accomplish setting handbrake pressure to the required level and confirming it had been done -- those methods would have to work for one man, and have high assurance and relative haptic simplicity in operation. This is exactly what retainers do and the do it so simply. Was this train DP'ed ? Randy
RME Be interesting to see if there are other methods, perhaps using handheld gauging equipment, to accomplish setting handbrake pressure to the required level and confirming it had been done -- those methods would have to work for one man, and have high assurance and relative haptic simplicity in operation.
Be interesting to see if there are other methods, perhaps using handheld gauging equipment, to accomplish setting handbrake pressure to the required level and confirming it had been done -- those methods would have to work for one man, and have high assurance and relative haptic simplicity in operation.
This is exactly what retainers do and the do it so simply.
Was this train DP'ed ?
Randy
Not to my knowledge - communications on the Keystone Sub had not been upgraded for DP operation when I retired in December and I had heard of no plans for doing it at that time. The geography of the Keystone Sub has many radio dead spots for normal radio communications - which I suspect could become catastrophic with 'missed communications' between Master and Slave(s).
BaltACDWhen retainers are not a part of your training - you don't know how to use them. There are very, very few conductors on any part of CSX that EVER experienced railroading and the use of retainers in their working experience.
Do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts on why CSX decided to abandon retainers? Apparently, (from other posts here), most or all cars have them, and other railroads use them. Even if they are very rarely needed, it seems to me it should be an option available to the crews.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Euclid The interesting thing about the reference to procedures posted by Balt is that it gives no reason why the train may proceed with the handbrakes unreleased after being set for securement. From reading the NTSB report, I jumped to the conclusion that leaving handbrakes set after re-starting was a safety measure because there was perhaps some worry that the air brake problem had not been fully remedied. So the handbrakes were just added insurance. This would mean that hand brakes were being used for the same purpose as retainers. Yet according to information supplied by mvlandsw, there is another reason to leave handbrakes applied after re-starting. That is to prevent the need to go out and reset them all again if the train happens to have a second episode of brake problems and stops because of them. It is a common attribute of these brake problems to reoccur in a short time, and a lot of work to set enough handbrakes for securement on a steep grade. If this is one of the reasons for keeping the handbrakes applied after restarting, I wonder if it may be the only reason. In other words, maybe it is never done simply to act as retainers in getting a train down the hill. It would be helpful if there was some reference from the railroad instructions that says why handbrakes would be left applied after restarting.
The interesting thing about the reference to procedures posted by Balt is that it gives no reason why the train may proceed with the handbrakes unreleased after being set for securement. From reading the NTSB report, I jumped to the conclusion that leaving handbrakes set after re-starting was a safety measure because there was perhaps some worry that the air brake problem had not been fully remedied. So the handbrakes were just added insurance. This would mean that hand brakes were being used for the same purpose as retainers.
Yet according to information supplied by mvlandsw, there is another reason to leave handbrakes applied after re-starting. That is to prevent the need to go out and reset them all again if the train happens to have a second episode of brake problems and stops because of them. It is a common attribute of these brake problems to reoccur in a short time, and a lot of work to set enough handbrakes for securement on a steep grade.
If this is one of the reasons for keeping the handbrakes applied after restarting, I wonder if it may be the only reason. In other words, maybe it is never done simply to act as retainers in getting a train down the hill. It would be helpful if there was some reference from the railroad instructions that says why handbrakes would be left applied after restarting.
We can only 'second guess' what the relief crew thought was the best option and that is comparable to asking what the pilot of a small aircraft was thinking and doing prior to the accident. While the NTSB tries to dig up 'facts' their answers are not always 'on target'. I've witnessed aviation accidents the NTSB got totally wrong in their final analysis.
Norm
RME Euclid However, in these type of situations, the handbrakes are applied with the setting level required for maximum securement reliability. As we have seen, that level of handbrake tightness causes wheel damage which itself is capable of causing a derailment. An interesting thing here is that it is 'technically' possible to arrange a handbrake rigging so it approximates what 'retainers' do on an air-brake system: apply a presettable amount of shoe pressure (perhaps calibrated to be comparable to 15psi brake cylinder air on a given car) instead of being winched on as tightly as a brake club can manage. It would be interesting to see what the "HMI" for such a setup would be: it should be strictly mechanical, not interfere with full application and release, and not under any circumstances cause a release if it sticks or fails. My initial thinking is that it should resemble a torque wrench in clicking or showing a visible indicator when the 'design pressure' has been applied; the indicator should then change (or disappear again) when more 'brake' is wound on. This would at least in theory give a conductor a visible indication of (a) application and (b) number of retainer brakes that have been set. Fancy electronic blah blah blah and ECP integration could be easily arranged, of course. Be interesting to see if there are other methods, perhaps using handheld gauging equipment, to accomplish setting handbrake pressure to the required level and confirming it had been done -- those methods would have to work for one man, and have high assurance and relative haptic simplicity in operation.
Euclid However, in these type of situations, the handbrakes are applied with the setting level required for maximum securement reliability. As we have seen, that level of handbrake tightness causes wheel damage which itself is capable of causing a derailment.
An interesting thing here is that it is 'technically' possible to arrange a handbrake rigging so it approximates what 'retainers' do on an air-brake system: apply a presettable amount of shoe pressure (perhaps calibrated to be comparable to 15psi brake cylinder air on a given car) instead of being winched on as tightly as a brake club can manage.
It would be interesting to see what the "HMI" for such a setup would be: it should be strictly mechanical, not interfere with full application and release, and not under any circumstances cause a release if it sticks or fails. My initial thinking is that it should resemble a torque wrench in clicking or showing a visible indicator when the 'design pressure' has been applied; the indicator should then change (or disappear again) when more 'brake' is wound on. This would at least in theory give a conductor a visible indication of (a) application and (b) number of retainer brakes that have been set.
Fancy electronic blah blah blah and ECP integration could be easily arranged, of course.
Or one could just set retainers. You know, the old K.I.S.S. theory. Every car already has one, and they are still there for a reason.
If you set enough retainers they will hold the train stationary on the grade (been there, done that). But that requires a lot more walking and time (and they can leak off over time, just like anything air-related) so handbrakes are better for holding a train still, especially for a long period of time.
Like I posted over on the other thread, approximately 3-4 retainers set to the "High Pressure" position are considered equivalent to one handbrake. CN still teaches the use of retainers, and though it is rare to see them used this Q388 scenario is the exact time they would be needed.
I see that CSX's rules allow for leaving handbrakes applied (on loads only) while descending Sand Patch and that it was not a uncommon occurrence. Our rules (at least in Canada) do not allow for handbrakes to be left on a moving train anywhere. Period. Perhaps that is why the use of retainers has not been forgotten by the Company here.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
EuclidHowever, in these type of situations, the handbrakes are applied with the setting level required for maximum securement reliability. As we have seen, that level of handbrake tightness causes wheel damage which itself is capable of causing a derailment.
Euclid RME Euclid I trust you have observed that your answer can be found in the material that BaltACD posted at 9:49. Yes, I have the answer in what Balt posted and the explanation provided by Mvlandsw above. I am surprised at the acceptance of coming down the hill with handbrakes applied. It would seem reasonable if the handbrakes were applied with the setting level compatible with running without damage. However, in these type of situations, the handbrakes are applied with the setting level required for maximum securement reliability. As we have seen, that level of handbrake tightness causes wheel damage which itself is capable of causing a derailment. I note that in the material Balt posted, you cannot run with the handbrakes applied to empties. Overall, I think this was a very interesting set of circumstances involved with this wreck, and I look forward to the conclusion by the NTSB, plus any further comments here.
RME Euclid I trust you have observed that your answer can be found in the material that BaltACD posted at 9:49.
Euclid
I trust you have observed that your answer can be found in the material that BaltACD posted at 9:49.
Yes, I have the answer in what Balt posted and the explanation provided by Mvlandsw above. I am surprised at the acceptance of coming down the hill with handbrakes applied. It would seem reasonable if the handbrakes were applied with the setting level compatible with running without damage.
However, in these type of situations, the handbrakes are applied with the setting level required for maximum securement reliability. As we have seen, that level of handbrake tightness causes wheel damage which itself is capable of causing a derailment. I note that in the material Balt posted, you cannot run with the handbrakes applied to empties.
Overall, I think this was a very interesting set of circumstances involved with this wreck, and I look forward to the conclusion by the NTSB, plus any further comments here.
I admit to knowing nothing about stopped trains that have gone into emergency while on a downgrade but it seems to me a rather simplisitc answer would be to attach more locomotives with dynamic braking to the rear of the train to help control the descent of the grade prior to the release of the train brakes. It may be an over-simplication but makes sense to me were there more braking power on the back end of the train. Harrison, being wanton to provide helpers on either up grades or down grades may have some relevance.
Where were the army stationed at the fort when the Indians attacked? Seems relevant to me that some roadmaster should have provided some help to that train.
RME Euclid In the middle, I ask one question, and am still waiting for the answer. I trust you have observed that your answer can be found in the material that BaltACD posted at 9:49.
Euclid In the middle, I ask one question, and am still waiting for the answer.
Could it be that train weight and length, especially in mountain districts, is reaching/surpassing the practical limits of brake equipment as it is currently?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
EuclidIn the middle, I ask one question, and am still waiting for the answer.
mvlandsw When I worked this division it was common practice to leave handbrakes applied after an emergency stop occurred. I think people did not want to have to release them and then reapply them if a second stop was made. Sometimes you cannot find the cause of an emergency application of the brakes. I once had a train go into emergency three times going down the hill before a parted hose was found. The first two times it must have bounced up on a crossing or switch enough to trigger the brakes without parting completely. I never thought it was good to leave the handbrakes applied. Unless you put the hand brakes on lightly the wheels will overheat or slide. It also makes it hard to handle the train smoothly. The grade on Sandpatch is not constant. With a given amount of braking the train will slow or even stop unless power is applied to pull it through certain areas. In other areas dynamic braking must be added to control the speed. Switching from power to dynamics is hard to do smoothly with a large block of handbrakes applied on the headend. When you reduce power the handbakes will slow the headend, causing the rearend to bunch up,perhaps roughly enough to derail something. When a train is stopped on the grade and the brake system needs to be recharged handbrakes must be applied to hold it. Once the brake system is fully charged a minimum reduction plus the independent engine brake will hold most trains while the handbrakes are released. The train can usually be started by releasing the engine brake and applying power. If not then retainers would be good to use, but as has been mentioned almost nobody knows how to use them.
When I worked this division it was common practice to leave handbrakes applied after an emergency stop occurred. I think people did not want to have to release them and then reapply them if a second stop was made. Sometimes you cannot find the cause of an emergency application of the brakes. I once had a train go into emergency three times going down the hill before a parted hose was found. The first two times it must have bounced up on a crossing or switch enough to trigger the brakes without parting completely.
I never thought it was good to leave the handbrakes applied. Unless you put the hand brakes on lightly the wheels will overheat or slide. It also makes it hard to handle the train smoothly. The grade on Sandpatch is not constant. With a given amount of braking the train will slow or even stop unless power is applied to pull it through certain areas. In other areas dynamic braking must be added to control the speed. Switching from power to dynamics is hard to do smoothly with a large block of handbrakes applied on the headend. When you reduce power the handbakes will slow the headend, causing the rearend to bunch up,perhaps roughly enough to derail something.
When a train is stopped on the grade and the brake system needs to be recharged handbrakes must be applied to hold it. Once the brake system is fully charged a minimum reduction plus the independent engine brake will hold most trains while the handbrakes are released. The train can usually be started by releasing the engine brake and applying power. If not then retainers would be good to use, but as has been mentioned almost nobody knows how to use them.
Mvlandsw,
Thanks for that clear and thoughtful explanation, including the procedure of starting the train on this type of down grade and also the practice of leaving handbrakes applied after restarting. Particularly interesting is your explanation that the apparent reasoning was that if you had air trouble once, you might have it again; and leaving the handbrakes applied after the first trouble will save the effort needed to set them all over again for the second trouble. I had never considered that as being the reason, but it makes perfect sense. Although, as you say, it can cause trouble if the brakes are applied too tightly.
But that raises a question. If the handbrakes are loose enough to leave set while pulling, are they tight enough for the securement when the train was stopped?
I recall some discussion within the TSB of Canada about the variation in securement effectiveness of handbrakes depending on how tight they were set, and also the condition of the brake. I have never seen any sort of specification for tightness regarding a requirement to set a handbrake.
It might be time for mandatory retainer training for all railroaders on the Sandpatch after this one. If you think the NTSB is not going to look at how the trains were being operated aka with handbrakes applied to even make it down the grade your nuts. Look for massive changes Nationwide on how heavy trains are run down major passes and possibly FRA requirements on training.
BigJim Euclid The problem that has been suggested is that to start, you have to release the automatic brake, so every car goes to full release. You can't just partially release the brakes until the train starts to roll. So when the brakes fully release, the train quickly starts to roll. As it accelerates without any braking, it is heading toward the speed where air braking will not be able to slow it down. At that point, it is running away. So the question is this: After the brakes release on the stopped train, what is the procedure for quickly getting braking back into effect before the speed rises too far? This is what has been suggested here to deal with this: Before releasing the automatic brake, you have enough handbrakes set to hold the train. Then the engineer releases the automatic brake, and the conductor moves from car to car releasing handbrakes until the train starts to move. That way, when the train starts to move, it still has a lot of braking force applied with the handbrakes. I have never heard of such a procedure until discussions about this wreck on this forum. As usual, you have absolutely NO IDEA what the hell you are talking about!!! And, at this point in time I do not have the time to explain it to you. Suffice it say, there was a way to get this train down the said hill in one piece and not derailed. Proper training would have gone a long way!!!
Euclid The problem that has been suggested is that to start, you have to release the automatic brake, so every car goes to full release. You can't just partially release the brakes until the train starts to roll. So when the brakes fully release, the train quickly starts to roll. As it accelerates without any braking, it is heading toward the speed where air braking will not be able to slow it down. At that point, it is running away. So the question is this: After the brakes release on the stopped train, what is the procedure for quickly getting braking back into effect before the speed rises too far? This is what has been suggested here to deal with this: Before releasing the automatic brake, you have enough handbrakes set to hold the train. Then the engineer releases the automatic brake, and the conductor moves from car to car releasing handbrakes until the train starts to move. That way, when the train starts to move, it still has a lot of braking force applied with the handbrakes. I have never heard of such a procedure until discussions about this wreck on this forum.
The problem that has been suggested is that to start, you have to release the automatic brake, so every car goes to full release. You can't just partially release the brakes until the train starts to roll. So when the brakes fully release, the train quickly starts to roll. As it accelerates without any braking, it is heading toward the speed where air braking will not be able to slow it down.
At that point, it is running away. So the question is this: After the brakes release on the stopped train, what is the procedure for quickly getting braking back into effect before the speed rises too far?
This is what has been suggested here to deal with this: Before releasing the automatic brake, you have enough handbrakes set to hold the train. Then the engineer releases the automatic brake, and the conductor moves from car to car releasing handbrakes until the train starts to move.
That way, when the train starts to move, it still has a lot of braking force applied with the handbrakes. I have never heard of such a procedure until discussions about this wreck on this forum.
As usual, you have absolutely NO IDEA what the hell you are talking about!!! And, at this point in time I do not have the time to explain it to you.
Suffice it say, there was a way to get this train down the said hill in one piece and not derailed. Proper training would have gone a long way!!!
I think you must be misunderstanding what I said. I have not made any assertion here. That entire statement is only my summation of what others have said about the reason for how the train was handled. In the middle, I ask one question, and am still waiting for the answer. At the end, I say I have never heard of the procedure until this wreck being discussed here.
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