the symposium

[gabe]

Toto, I think we are still in Kansas; and that is what is the matter.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

I have a wry smile, cbt141, because you already know the answer to that: none. Bulk commodities are low value. The stuff will hardly pay for the short-run variable costs of transportation even now. Coal will pay for some modest renewals, but not for enormous additions or renewals. If anyone needs more coal in the ocean trades that badly, they'll find plenty of it within a stone's throw of tidewater in Colombia and Australia. Grain will pay for almost nothing. For example, the total value of the U.S. wheat export in 2001 was $3.5 billion, which in trade terms is a pittance: how much of that could pay for rail investment above and beyond the current levels it's already paying, and still move to market without subsidy? Heck, it already IS moving to market with the aid of subsidy -- export credits, highway infrastructure, farm credits, etc., etc., etc., etc. But maybe "pay for infrastructure" is code word for "divert tax dollars to subsidize U.S. landowners whose hobby is farming." We could do that if we want, though it's depressing to think about.

I work for both the USDA and ISDA, and I can tell you that these so-called subsidies barely compensate for the morass of regulations that saddle the U.S. farmer with artificially high production and transportation costs, costs not borne by ag producers in other nations. Remove these regulations first, then you and your kind can rant and rave about farming subsidies all you want.

[Anonymous]

AHA!

A very wise old lawyer once told me that the practice of law when properly done was the process of getting perception to equal reality. For example in the context of a murder trail ghetting the finder of fact (jury) to perceive the circumstantial evidence as the reality of the guilt of the defendant.

So perhaps you are really arguing two sides of the same coin...

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

I think I see a penumbra of an argument in your statement Mark. Just to add to it: when I took the bar, there was a common adage for when you don't know the answer to a question. If the question involves a small-time farmer, always give an answer that favors the farmer; if the answer involves a common carrier always give an answer that . . . them.

While studying for the bar, I did somewhere between 3,500 and 3,600 practice questions, and that adage wasn’t' proven wrong once. I will leave to the forum to draw its own conclusions as to what that says about the structure of American law and what American law is designed to do.

I am not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing; I am just saying that is the way it is.

Gabe

Gabe-

Any law student or lawyer knows that the two biggest hose jobs in the law are the Innkeeper and the Common Carrier...lol...

LC

[Anonymous]

" Remove these regulations first, then you and your kind can rant and rave about farming subsidies all you want."

you may be surprised to learn that "my kind" agree with you completely. farmers in iowa, illinois, indiana etc have spent the savings of generations developing the communities, ditches, tiled fields, paved roads, dams streams, etc. necessary to create a profitable and competitive agricutural industry, only to watch urban america pour cheap money and non recourse loans into the third world. these programs fund foreign agriculture in direct competition with our own producers at cost /return ratios that would bankrupt american farming. in short i agree with you in total... get rid of the "morass of regulation" and the taxes which support it.
(edited to drop an unnecessary aside)

[daveklepper]

I like this discussion. Incidentally, it is the December issue of the American Legion Magazine that has the Pipes article on Saudi Arabia. If the tax system were just skewed a bit to favor the railroads a bit more, maybe the life style would be improved. Possibly people would overall use cars less, and trucks less, but the truck driver would have less strain, and driving a car would usually be a great pleasure without congestion. And if done right, with a real national transportation system, the Saudi problem could be solved leading eventually to elimination of the pervaisive terrorist threat and thus restoration of freedoms that existed for Americans before 11.09.01. I think this is a worthwhile agenda. And if Congress and the President's office don't come up with a plan, how about the transit industry, Amtrak, the freight railroads, coming up with a plan that says: Hey, we can give you energy independence in six months for less than all your research programs?

[Anonymous]

The small farmer is well woven into the fabric of our society including the law. There are many businesses built on the support for the small farmer. Take for example the major poultry producers such as Purdue, Tyson and others. These poultry integrators provide feed (feed mill), chicks (hatchery), medication (Vet services), chicken catching, transportation, and processing. They contract raising the chickens for 6 to 8 weeks to small farmers who receive subsidies for actually raising the chicks to full grown chickens in sophisticated chicken houses on the farms financed by the poultry company. Yes, they can grow full grown chickens (5lbs) in 6 weeks. Don't ask me how, I don't want to know...

My point is that these major companies rely on the small farmers for this critical part of their business to keep costs low by taking advantage of federal and state farm subsidies. So there is a lot more at stake than just small farmers when you dig below the surface.

BTW, these companies are major rail users. (required rail content)

One last point, a fair amount of the soybeans used by the poultry integrators are already imported from South America and that trend is expected by the poultry industry to continue and grow.

LC

[MP173]

Mark:

Perception is reality for many people. It is usually the hmmm fraud, no that is too strong a word, make that illusion of elections.

We WILL tax those rich Republicans....we WILL make those welfare mothers go back to work. We WILL...you get the picture.

Reality is that in order to get those agendas (would that be agendi?) in place, it must be tacked on to other legislation and OOPS, there goes the logic. Lets see, a little pork here, an Amtrak train in West Virginia for Senator Byrd, a new bridge for Illinois and before you can blink....we are running a deficit.

Business people need one tax season to figure out how to get around the latest round of wealth redistribution. Good accountants and trade organizations figure it out and lobby for an exemption.

ed

[MP173]

Mark:

Wanted to ask you this and forgot, hope I dont get taxed for "excess posts". Is there a book review on the good professor's latest book? If not, do you care to summarize it?

I read Richard Saunder's excellent volumes on the mergers in the 20th century and am looking for something like that to brighten my holiday season.

Thanks.

ed

[Anonymous]

"One last point, a fair amount of the soybeans used by the poultry integrators are already imported from South America and that trend is expected by the poultry industry to continue and grow. "

some importation of soy meal has occurred over the last several years. this is quite correct...and a new phenomenon. the rumors and threats of these arrivals have dramatic effect on market prices but the amounts are not significant as a precentage of national domestic usage. whether this will build in volume is an open question. in general, these shippments have been to feed the southeastern hog/poultry industry and part of their strategy to negotiate lower rail rates on soymeal from the railroads ( see recent discussions of "source monoply/competition"). the long term attractivenesss of importation to the main feed zones is questionable. basically, the meal needs to move "upstream" in the archetecture of domestic supply ,ie, the further inland it comes the more cheap, lower freight and competitive meal will be present by virtue of moving closer to the main midwestern processing sources.
anomally years can occur when domestic supplies of feed are in short supply and domestic prices rise to ration use and draw added grain. in 2001/2 english wheat was offloaded at wilmington and brunswick to help offset a short soft wheat crop in the eastern usa.