the symposium

[gabe]

At the risk of being labeled "head sycophant," I just thought I would let the rest of you know that the symposium was great and I wish I could have met more of you there. Mark's lecture and slide show really expanded my knowledge--most interestingly with regard to short line railways and the likelihood of the continued existence of the routes they operate.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

At the risk of being labeled "head sycophant," I just thought I would let the rest of you know that the symposium was great and I wish I could have met more of you there. Mark's lecture and slide show really expanded my knowledge--most interestingly with regard to short line railways and the likelihood of the continued existence of the routes they operate.

Gabe

What in particular was covered?

What did you learn from Mark on short lines?

LC

[gabe]

I initially didn't give a thorough description of the symposium out of the fear that my relatively limited rail knowledge would preclude me from catching some of the nuisances that make up Mark's position and unintentionally misrepresent Mark's position. But, it was a quality symposium and the forum deserves at least my attempt. So, here are the top 10 things I found most interesting at the symposium:

(1) The Rock Island's old Memphis line (Sorry I don't know both ends of the line or the official name of the line) is still intact but getting it to the point it could run trains over it would be very difficult. However, BNSF REALLY wishes it had bought and maintained that line when it had the opportunity and they would not have to sink so much money into it.

I found this particularly interesting, because SF bought the TPW in the 80s when they had a chance to get the Rock Island's Memphis line. I wish I had enough money (or confident investors) to start a short line over the old Rock Island Memphis line. It sounds as though BNSF would be interested in buying it if you were able to bring it to a certain point of development.

(2) Mark's slides were nothing short of outstanding. They focused primarily on the Rio Grande (which I have always found a very photogenic railway). The night picture of a UP train going over the Salt Lake at night (giving the impression that it was rolling on water due to the subsidence of the ballast) was absolutely breathtaking.

(3) Mark discussed a lot of things about Rio Grande's branch lines (sorry hard to sum this up).

(4) One of the major thesis of Mark's presentation was that we (railroaders and the nation) are sitting on a legacy--if no railroads existed today, we could not afford to just build them. As this legacy ages and eventually has to be replaced there are going to be some major problems.

(5) The other half of Mark's major thesis is that we have to determine what we want our rail system to be: a utility or a profit-making venture. As the rail legacy ages and is in need of replacement, this question will become more important, because we can't have both.

(6) A lot of short line railroads exist with the idea that they are not trying to maintain the lines. The short line is just going to run trains on the line until the line breaks down, pulling as much money out of it as they can, and then abandon the line for scrap value.

(7) The 186,000lbs car is going to cause a great deal of abandonment in the near future.

(8) That the average Trains' reader is 70 years old = Gabe's age x 2.421.

(9) A lot of the actual interactive discussion centered on high-speed rail. I am going to post something on this soon.

(10) Santa Fe's sidings on double track main lines are being redesigned in a really cool way.

Gabe

[MP173]

I was really hoping to be there, particularly less than an hour from home, but other things were calling for my attention.

I just dont see how short lines can continue to survive, based on little or no investment in the property. The entire cycle of the line seems to be (and I use my hometown line as an example) that at one time the line is fairly well maintained, but with old rail and as the line falls more and more into disrepair, the service suffers, which is a never ending cycle. Traffic begins to dry up, meaning less money for on going maintennace, etc. Finally the railroad sells it to a short line...at which time the trains bounce along at 10mph till it is time to pull up the tracks. Sad.

Unless there is a strategic reason for lines, we will find more and more of this occuring.

I am amazed the average age of Trains subscribers is 70. Ouch.

ed

[gabe]

Ed,

I was thinking of the exact same line while Mark was making this point. I almost managed to smile as I pictured a pair of Illinois Central Geeps proudly pulling a freight through Olney and other small towns on its way to Newton.

I wi***his were not the way of things.

Gabe

[mloik]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe
(8) That the average Trains' reader is 70 years old

Gabe,

Thanks for the summary. Wish I could have been there.

As for point #8, what is the standard error on that average? I can't imagine that it's a normal distribution. Perhaps Mr. Hemphill will weigh in...

Michael

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mloik

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe
(8) That the average Trains' reader is 70 years old

Gabe,

Thanks for the summary. Wish I could have been there.

As for point #8, what is the standard error on that average? I can't imagine that it's a normal distribution. Perhaps Mr. Hemphill will weigh in...

Michael

It is always, of course, possible that I misunderstood something, but Mr. Hemphill was the person to whom I attribute this information.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

I initially didn't give a thorough description of the symposium out of the fear that my relatively limited rail knowledge would preclude me from catching some of the nuisances that make up Mark's position and unintentionally misrepresent Mark's position. But, it was a quality symposium and the forum deserves at least my attempt. So, here are the top 10 things I found most interesting at the symposium:

(1) The Rock Island's old Memphis line (Sorry I don't know both ends of the line or the official name of the line) is still intact but getting it to the point it could run trains over it would be very difficult. However, BNSF REALLY wishes it had bought and maintained that line when it had the opportunity and they would not have to sink so much money into it.

I found this particularly interesting, because SF bought the TPW in the 80s when they had a chance to get the Rock Island's Memphis line. I wish I had enough money (or confident investors) to start a short line over the old Rock Island Memphis line. It sounds as though BNSF would be interested in buying it if you were able to bring it to a certain point of development.

(2) Mark's slides were nothing short of outstanding. They focused primarily on the Rio Grande (which I have always found a very photogenic railway). The night picture of a UP train going over the Salt Lake at night (giving the impression that it was rolling on water due to the subsidence of the ballast) was absolutely breathtaking.

(3) Mark discussed a lot of things about Rio Grande's branch lines (sorry hard to sum this up).

(4) One of the major thesis of Mark's presentation was that we (railroaders and the nation) are sitting on a legacy--if no railroads existed today, we could not afford to just build them. As this legacy ages and eventually has to be replaced there are going to be some major problems.

(5) The other half of Mark's major thesis is that we have to determine what we want our rail system to be: a utility or a profit-making venture. As the rail legacy ages and is in need of replacement, this question will become more important, because we can't have both.

(6) A lot of short line railroads exist with the idea that they are not trying to maintain the lines. The short line is just going to run trains on the line until the line breaks down, pulling as much money out of it as they can, and then abandon the line for scrap value.

(7) The 186,000lbs car is going to cause a great deal of abandonment in the near future.

(8) That the average Trains' reader is 70 years old = Gabe's age x 2.421.

(9) A lot of the actual interactive discussion centered on high-speed rail. I am going to post something on this soon.

(10) Santa Fe's sidings on double track main lines are being redesigned in a really cool way.

Gabe

Gabe-

Not taking a shot at you, but here's a little help and perhaps interpretation of your summary.

(1) Not familiar with the Memphis line of the CRIP. Where did it begin and end? Who owns the property now? BNSF?

(2) Slides sound great.

(3) No problem DRGW is an expertise of Mark's judging by some of the past TRAINS magazine articles.

(4) An excellent point. The time to roll up our sleeves (and the governments too) is now. Also, customers have to be stopped from their constant downward pressure on rates. This can actually cause abandonments where the traffic levels, if properly priced, could otherwise support rail service.

(5) Profit making venture from my standpoint. See #4 above also.

(6) This depends a great deal on the short lines involved. It was much more the case in past decades. The FRA and the public no longer puts up with this tactic as well and also, the Class 1s are more picky about who they will sell lines to nowadays with the understanding that if the line is truly let go by the new operator it will no longer contribute traffic to the Class 1.

(7) It is 286,000 lbs, not 186,000. Also, there will be abandonments of non-286K capable lines where there is insufficient will on the part of the railroads involved (Class , regional or short line) and the commmunities and shippers to keep the rail service. Also, not every railroad truly needs to be 286K capable. There are a number of lines that don't move those bulk commodities that must have 286K (coal, grain, plastics, etc) There will be abandonments in lines that either require too much funding to upgrade to 286K from their current situation (Patrticularly some of the old grainger lines with 90# rail or less) and inadequate traffic to justify the upgrade.

(8) There are quire a few of us here under 70, but the rail fraternity is graying, no doubt about it.

(9) Hi speed rail is great, but how can we afford it when we can't even fund Amtrak?

(10) Sidings sound interesting.

LC

[gabe]

Thanks for the clarification. My limited knowledge coupled with the fact that I am posting this information while doing other stuff causes some errors.

Gabe

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

Thanks for the clarification. My limited knowledge coupled with the fact that I am posting this information while doing other stuff causes some errors.

Gabe

Still working on that grade crossing suit, huh? [;)]

[gabe]

I sure hope not. If my living depended on collecting money from railroad crossing incidents would leave me starved in about a week. It is very difficult to get a grade crossing suit verdict.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Can you folks expand a little on these new sidings?

What's the new idea/way of doing it?

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by macguy

Can you folks expand a little on these new sidings?

What's the new idea/way of doing it?

It is so hard to describe in words, but I will try.

Old siding on double track main:
_________________________
____/__________________________\_____________
__X______________________________X___________

New siding on double track main:

_____________________________
_______/_____________________________\_____________
________X__________________________X______________

This way--by allowing the siding to go beyond the crossover switch, they can work on any one siding while keeping both mains clear. I think Mark said there was another maintenance advantage, but it escapes me at the moment.

Gabe

[gabe]

Sorry, the posting distorted my representation--try to picture the top line even with the crossover switch.

Gabe

[MP173]

Gabe:

Yeah, I was thinking of those black geeps running up the Dundas grade with a long line of boxcars, while I was on my bike counting the cars. So, long ago.

There is a pretty good example of what can be done here in Northern Indiana. I am talking about the Ft Wayne - Chicago PRR mainline. When I moved up here, it was pretty busy with probably 25-30 Conrail trains per day. By 1982 or so, all those freights were moved over to the the NYC main.

To make a long story short, NS bought the line to allieviate congestion, it went to CSX as part of the Conrail settlement, and then went to Chicago Ft. Wayne and Eastern.

When NS purchased it, the track was upgraded to 40mph (no signals). There is still jointed rail. But the important thing is....THERE IS STILL RAIL in place.

Now, I maintain that someday this line may be an important railroad again. And I look at the shortline operators and wonder....is it possible that their lines could one day help with the coming infrastructure issue? Probably not, but they could piece lines together that could be come attractive.

Ditto the former Rock Island mainline from Chicago to Omaha. It is still in place. How valuable might that property be in 15 years as UP has to compete with BNSF's 2 mainlines across the midwest?

TPW? The former IC Omaha line?

There are many lines still left. Some are in shortline or regional's hands, no doubt waiting till the life support machine turns off. I dont know the answer to keeping those lines open in the near future, but believe it is something worth exploring, past the next quarter's shareholder's report.

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

I was really hoping to be there, particularly less than an hour from home, but other things were calling for my attention.

I just dont see how short lines can continue to survive, based on little or no investment in the property. The entire cycle of the line seems to be (and I use my hometown line as an example) that at one time the line is fairly well maintained, but with old rail and as the line falls more and more into disrepair, the service suffers, which is a never ending cycle. Traffic begins to dry up, meaning less money for on going maintennace, etc. Finally the railroad sells it to a short line...at which time the trains bounce along at 10mph till it is time to pull up the tracks. Sad.

Unless there is a strategic reason for lines, we will find more and more of this occuring.

I am amazed the average age of Trains subscribers is 70. Ouch.

ed

Ed-

Short lines operate in the way they do because that is what is required to make money. Short lines spun off from Class 1s almost always have traffic levels that are too low to support maintenance of the line as an ongoing concern. This requires the short line operator to grow the traffic to survive and often means that, at least initially, maintenance money (and all other funding) is very tight. Also, as the short line rarely receives the line in high quality condition.

On the other hand, short lines rarely need high speed track. Ten miles per hour is more than adequate to get the train from one end of the line to the other (and in some cases back to interchange) within the hours of service. As Class1s rarely service interchanges more than daily such a hurry would have no purpose.

The preservation of the line in operating condition, even at ten miles per hour preserves much of the operating assets including rail, crossties, OTM grade and subgrade and most importantly the legal continuation of the railroad ROW.

The growth of traffic and hopefully presence of competitive Class 1 interchanges coupled with some public assistance to account for at least some deferred maintenance (and hopefully 286K capacity in the future) assures more rail served areas for businesses to locate and to maintain the industrial base of our country.

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

Thanks for the clarification. My limited knowledge coupled with the fact that I am posting this information while doing other stuff causes some errors.

Gabe

No problem. That's why I hang around. Wish I could have been there myself. Might have made a few people uncomfortable...lol...of course I might have had them rolling...

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe


(8) That the average Trains' reader is 70 years old = Gabe's age x 2.421.

So by your calculations, you are 28.913672 years of age (at least at the time of this posting)! Do you have an atomic clock computer chip on your drivers liscense?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe



(4) One of the major thesis of Mark's presentation was that we (railroaders and the nation) are sitting on a legacy--if no railroads existed today, we could not afford to just build them. As this legacy ages and eventually has to be replaced there are going to be some major problems.

(5) The other half of Mark's major thesis is that we have to determine what we want our rail system to be: a utility or a profit-making venture. As the rail legacy ages and is in need of replacement, this question will become more important, because we can't have both.

On point #4 - Did he make any comparisons and contrasts between constructing highways and railroads today? The "legacy" as is stated was constructed at a time when no other viable alternatives existed, and any region that wanted economic growth just had to have a railroad or go belly up. Today, most economic desires related to transportation revolve around the need to be located near an interstate. Yet, with the growth in world trade the need for transporation of bulk commodities (or commodities in bulk) is the perfect storm for a revival of rail infrastructure additions. The real question is if the old model of the sole proprietary franchise is obsolete for the needs of the future.

On point #5 - Why do we have to have one or the other when we can have both?

Rail infrastructure - utilities
Train operations - profit making ventures

[daveklepper]

Mark, from what you know about economics, if the private car owner, the trucker, really had to pay the full cost of his/transportation to society in general (police traffic control, the traffic courts, traffic signals and maintenance, land removed from the tax rolls), could railroads earn a decent return on their capital, possibly even in the non-commuting long distance passenger business as well as car-load frieght and LCL?

If you have not seen the Pipes article in the American Legion Magazine, please read it. The tell me, doesn't the USA need a national public transportation system based on a robust well-maintained and operated Amtrak supplimented by all the necessary bus feeders so every town with a P. O. has at least a daily connection to the national system, plus a robust freight network with the subsidization necessary so at least what we have is kept?

The USA sold scrap iron from the 9th Avenue elevated to Japan just before Pearl Harbor. The Bush energy and transportation program looks to me like continuing to sell the steel after Pear Harbor. (With the FBI accusing Billy Mitchell of dual loyalties for flying for Chiang Kei Chek!)

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe


(8) That the average Trains' reader is 70 years old = Gabe's age x 2.421.

So by your calculations, you are 28.913672 years of age (at least at the time of this posting)! Do you have an atomic clock computer chip on your drivers liscense?

No, I dropped the last seven digits of my calculation. I just didn’t think the millionth of a percentage was that important to a reader. I will endeavor to be more precise in the future.

Gabe

[mikeyuhas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

2. Average age of Trains readers is probably around 54-55. You could verify this by asking Mike Yuhas. My apologies if I confused you.

Yes, that's about right.

[Modelcar]

....Hmmmm, atomic clock computer chip on dr. lisc....I come close to that, I have one in my wrist watch....At least it's reg. by the atomic clock structure in Boulder.

[Anonymous]

"Yet, with the growth in world trade the need for transporation of bulk commodities (or commodities in bulk) is the perfect storm for a revival of rail infrastructure additions."

what bulk commodities does the usa import or export via rail support in enough quantity to support rebuilding the rail infrastructure?

[gabe]

I think I see a penumbra of an argument in your statement Mark. Just to add to it: when I took the bar, there was a common adage for when you don't know the answer to a question. If the question involves a small-time farmer, always give an answer that favors the farmer; if the answer involves a common carrier always give an answer that . . . them.

While studying for the bar, I did somewhere between 3,500 and 3,600 practice questions, and that adage wasn’t' proven wrong once. I will leave to the forum to draw its own conclusions as to what that says about the structure of American law and what American law is designed to do.

I am not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing; I am just saying that is the way it is.

Gabe

[gabe]

My contention is that the law, subsidies, and the general structure of American government favors and protects the small independent American farmer, an occupation that couldn't possibly exist without this protection.

I think my contention is very commensurate with the later part of your paragraph. It is not that people woke up one day and said lets randomly favor the independent farmer. Rather, the ideology embodied in the American small farmer is what causes the small farmer to be favored. The small self-sufficient unit of the American farmer is considered the very embodiment of Jeffersonian ideals of democracy and considered, by Jefferson, to be the type of person that made the ideal democrat (small "d").

I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. I am just saying that Jeffersonian ideals of democracy have caused a favorable light to shine on those who were born into farming.

Gabe

P.S. Penumbra was my favorite word until you recently taught me "Panglossian." Though an eponym, a priceless one.

[jeaton]

NOTE: penumbra (pi num'bre) 3. Figurative. a partial shade or shadow.


Jay[:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

"...government favors and protects the small independent American farmer, an occupation that couldn't possibly exist without this protection."

maybe, but...
current ag grain policy creates an environment of cronic glut, which needs the export market to clear supplies, which in turn, puts usa farmers into the pricing arena of the third world.
give less ag support to grain and there would be less excess production. market forces would determine a new supply demand curve. it is possible that internal usa grain prices would rise to a level where domestic supplies would be augmented by foreign imports in times of shortage and protected by ocean freight charges in times of surplus.
this is a novel idea: free market pricing of scarce resources. it works for legal fees, used car sales, private homes. why not farm products?

[Anonymous]

Gabe and Mark-

Did the Professor have copies of his new book available at the Symposium? I was able to order the older one from Barnes & Noble, but the new one is not available yet.

LC

[MP173]

Mark:

Do all people that believe that laws favor minorities fall into the category of bigots?
Thomas Sowell would not fall into that category, nor would Dr. Walt Williams.

Plenty of liberal "idle rich" out there. And plenty of us conservatives which are neither idle nor rich.

I have come to the conclusion, that each and every four years the elections stand for nothing more than redistribution of wealth in this great country. Who can we tax and how much pain can we extract. Funny tho, the smartest politician, in my opinion is not nearly as smart as the average businessman.

The entire tax code needs to be blown up and reconstructed. Easy for me to say, because I am not going to do it!

I do believe we are beginning to feast just a bit too much on the government table these days. With the importing of all those goods from Asia and other ports, I wonder....just how long can we maintain this standard of living. I will be fine in my lifetime, but it is my sons that I worry about.

ed