the symposium

[Anonymous]

"One last point, a fair amount of the soybeans used by the poultry integrators are already imported from South America and that trend is expected by the poultry industry to continue and grow. "

some importation of soy meal has occurred over the last several years. this is quite correct...and a new phenomenon. the rumors and threats of these arrivals have dramatic effect on market prices but the amounts are not significant as a precentage of national domestic usage. whether this will build in volume is an open question. in general, these shippments have been to feed the southeastern hog/poultry industry and part of their strategy to negotiate lower rail rates on soymeal from the railroads ( see recent discussions of "source monoply/competition"). the long term attractivenesss of importation to the main feed zones is questionable. basically, the meal needs to move "upstream" in the archetecture of domestic supply ,ie, the further inland it comes the more cheap, lower freight and competitive meal will be present by virtue of moving closer to the main midwestern processing sources.
anomally years can occur when domestic supplies of feed are in short supply and domestic prices rise to ration use and draw added grain. in 2001/2 english wheat was offloaded at wilmington and brunswick to help offset a short soft wheat crop in the eastern usa.

[MP173]

Mark:

Wanted to ask you this and forgot, hope I dont get taxed for "excess posts". Is there a book review on the good professor's latest book? If not, do you care to summarize it?

I read Richard Saunder's excellent volumes on the mergers in the 20th century and am looking for something like that to brighten my holiday season.

Thanks.

ed

[MP173]

Mark:

Perception is reality for many people. It is usually the hmmm fraud, no that is too strong a word, make that illusion of elections.

We WILL tax those rich Republicans....we WILL make those welfare mothers go back to work. We WILL...you get the picture.

Reality is that in order to get those agendas (would that be agendi?) in place, it must be tacked on to other legislation and OOPS, there goes the logic. Lets see, a little pork here, an Amtrak train in West Virginia for Senator Byrd, a new bridge for Illinois and before you can blink....we are running a deficit.

Business people need one tax season to figure out how to get around the latest round of wealth redistribution. Good accountants and trade organizations figure it out and lobby for an exemption.

ed

[Anonymous]

The small farmer is well woven into the fabric of our society including the law. There are many businesses built on the support for the small farmer. Take for example the major poultry producers such as Purdue, Tyson and others. These poultry integrators provide feed (feed mill), chicks (hatchery), medication (Vet services), chicken catching, transportation, and processing. They contract raising the chickens for 6 to 8 weeks to small farmers who receive subsidies for actually raising the chicks to full grown chickens in sophisticated chicken houses on the farms financed by the poultry company. Yes, they can grow full grown chickens (5lbs) in 6 weeks. Don't ask me how, I don't want to know...

My point is that these major companies rely on the small farmers for this critical part of their business to keep costs low by taking advantage of federal and state farm subsidies. So there is a lot more at stake than just small farmers when you dig below the surface.

BTW, these companies are major rail users. (required rail content)

One last point, a fair amount of the soybeans used by the poultry integrators are already imported from South America and that trend is expected by the poultry industry to continue and grow.

LC

[daveklepper]

I like this discussion. Incidentally, it is the December issue of the American Legion Magazine that has the Pipes article on Saudi Arabia. If the tax system were just skewed a bit to favor the railroads a bit more, maybe the life style would be improved. Possibly people would overall use cars less, and trucks less, but the truck driver would have less strain, and driving a car would usually be a great pleasure without congestion. And if done right, with a real national transportation system, the Saudi problem could be solved leading eventually to elimination of the pervaisive terrorist threat and thus restoration of freedoms that existed for Americans before 11.09.01. I think this is a worthwhile agenda. And if Congress and the President's office don't come up with a plan, how about the transit industry, Amtrak, the freight railroads, coming up with a plan that says: Hey, we can give you energy independence in six months for less than all your research programs?

[Anonymous]

" Remove these regulations first, then you and your kind can rant and rave about farming subsidies all you want."

you may be surprised to learn that "my kind" agree with you completely. farmers in iowa, illinois, indiana etc have spent the savings of generations developing the communities, ditches, tiled fields, paved roads, dams streams, etc. necessary to create a profitable and competitive agricutural industry, only to watch urban america pour cheap money and non recourse loans into the third world. these programs fund foreign agriculture in direct competition with our own producers at cost /return ratios that would bankrupt american farming. in short i agree with you in total... get rid of the "morass of regulation" and the taxes which support it.
(edited to drop an unnecessary aside)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

I think I see a penumbra of an argument in your statement Mark. Just to add to it: when I took the bar, there was a common adage for when you don't know the answer to a question. If the question involves a small-time farmer, always give an answer that favors the farmer; if the answer involves a common carrier always give an answer that . . . them.

While studying for the bar, I did somewhere between 3,500 and 3,600 practice questions, and that adage wasn’t' proven wrong once. I will leave to the forum to draw its own conclusions as to what that says about the structure of American law and what American law is designed to do.

I am not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing; I am just saying that is the way it is.

Gabe

Gabe-

Any law student or lawyer knows that the two biggest hose jobs in the law are the Innkeeper and the Common Carrier...lol...

LC

[Anonymous]

AHA!

A very wise old lawyer once told me that the practice of law when properly done was the process of getting perception to equal reality. For example in the context of a murder trail ghetting the finder of fact (jury) to perceive the circumstantial evidence as the reality of the guilt of the defendant.

So perhaps you are really arguing two sides of the same coin...

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

I have a wry smile, cbt141, because you already know the answer to that: none. Bulk commodities are low value. The stuff will hardly pay for the short-run variable costs of transportation even now. Coal will pay for some modest renewals, but not for enormous additions or renewals. If anyone needs more coal in the ocean trades that badly, they'll find plenty of it within a stone's throw of tidewater in Colombia and Australia. Grain will pay for almost nothing. For example, the total value of the U.S. wheat export in 2001 was $3.5 billion, which in trade terms is a pittance: how much of that could pay for rail investment above and beyond the current levels it's already paying, and still move to market without subsidy? Heck, it already IS moving to market with the aid of subsidy -- export credits, highway infrastructure, farm credits, etc., etc., etc., etc. But maybe "pay for infrastructure" is code word for "divert tax dollars to subsidize U.S. landowners whose hobby is farming." We could do that if we want, though it's depressing to think about.

I work for both the USDA and ISDA, and I can tell you that these so-called subsidies barely compensate for the morass of regulations that saddle the U.S. farmer with artificially high production and transportation costs, costs not borne by ag producers in other nations. Remove these regulations first, then you and your kind can rant and rave about farming subsidies all you want.

[gabe]

Toto, I think we are still in Kansas; and that is what is the matter.

[MP173]

Mark:

Do all people that believe that laws favor minorities fall into the category of bigots?
Thomas Sowell would not fall into that category, nor would Dr. Walt Williams.

Plenty of liberal "idle rich" out there. And plenty of us conservatives which are neither idle nor rich.

I have come to the conclusion, that each and every four years the elections stand for nothing more than redistribution of wealth in this great country. Who can we tax and how much pain can we extract. Funny tho, the smartest politician, in my opinion is not nearly as smart as the average businessman.

The entire tax code needs to be blown up and reconstructed. Easy for me to say, because I am not going to do it!

I do believe we are beginning to feast just a bit too much on the government table these days. With the importing of all those goods from Asia and other ports, I wonder....just how long can we maintain this standard of living. I will be fine in my lifetime, but it is my sons that I worry about.

ed

[Anonymous]

Gabe and Mark-

Did the Professor have copies of his new book available at the Symposium? I was able to order the older one from Barnes & Noble, but the new one is not available yet.

LC

[Anonymous]

"...government favors and protects the small independent American farmer, an occupation that couldn't possibly exist without this protection."

maybe, but...
current ag grain policy creates an environment of cronic glut, which needs the export market to clear supplies, which in turn, puts usa farmers into the pricing arena of the third world.
give less ag support to grain and there would be less excess production. market forces would determine a new supply demand curve. it is possible that internal usa grain prices would rise to a level where domestic supplies would be augmented by foreign imports in times of shortage and protected by ocean freight charges in times of surplus.
this is a novel idea: free market pricing of scarce resources. it works for legal fees, used car sales, private homes. why not farm products?

[jeaton]

NOTE: penumbra (pi num'bre) 3. Figurative. a partial shade or shadow.


Jay[:D][:D]

[gabe]

My contention is that the law, subsidies, and the general structure of American government favors and protects the small independent American farmer, an occupation that couldn't possibly exist without this protection.

I think my contention is very commensurate with the later part of your paragraph. It is not that people woke up one day and said lets randomly favor the independent farmer. Rather, the ideology embodied in the American small farmer is what causes the small farmer to be favored. The small self-sufficient unit of the American farmer is considered the very embodiment of Jeffersonian ideals of democracy and considered, by Jefferson, to be the type of person that made the ideal democrat (small "d").

I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. I am just saying that Jeffersonian ideals of democracy have caused a favorable light to shine on those who were born into farming.

Gabe

P.S. Penumbra was my favorite word until you recently taught me "Panglossian." Though an eponym, a priceless one.

[gabe]

I think I see a penumbra of an argument in your statement Mark. Just to add to it: when I took the bar, there was a common adage for when you don't know the answer to a question. If the question involves a small-time farmer, always give an answer that favors the farmer; if the answer involves a common carrier always give an answer that . . . them.

While studying for the bar, I did somewhere between 3,500 and 3,600 practice questions, and that adage wasn’t' proven wrong once. I will leave to the forum to draw its own conclusions as to what that says about the structure of American law and what American law is designed to do.

I am not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing; I am just saying that is the way it is.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

"Yet, with the growth in world trade the need for transporation of bulk commodities (or commodities in bulk) is the perfect storm for a revival of rail infrastructure additions."

what bulk commodities does the usa import or export via rail support in enough quantity to support rebuilding the rail infrastructure?

[Modelcar]

....Hmmmm, atomic clock computer chip on dr. lisc....I come close to that, I have one in my wrist watch....At least it's reg. by the atomic clock structure in Boulder.

[mikeyuhas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

2. Average age of Trains readers is probably around 54-55. You could verify this by asking Mike Yuhas. My apologies if I confused you.

Yes, that's about right.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe


(8) That the average Trains' reader is 70 years old = Gabe's age x 2.421.

So by your calculations, you are 28.913672 years of age (at least at the time of this posting)! Do you have an atomic clock computer chip on your drivers liscense?

No, I dropped the last seven digits of my calculation. I just didn’t think the millionth of a percentage was that important to a reader. I will endeavor to be more precise in the future.

Gabe

[daveklepper]

Mark, from what you know about economics, if the private car owner, the trucker, really had to pay the full cost of his/transportation to society in general (police traffic control, the traffic courts, traffic signals and maintenance, land removed from the tax rolls), could railroads earn a decent return on their capital, possibly even in the non-commuting long distance passenger business as well as car-load frieght and LCL?

If you have not seen the Pipes article in the American Legion Magazine, please read it. The tell me, doesn't the USA need a national public transportation system based on a robust well-maintained and operated Amtrak supplimented by all the necessary bus feeders so every town with a P. O. has at least a daily connection to the national system, plus a robust freight network with the subsidization necessary so at least what we have is kept?

The USA sold scrap iron from the 9th Avenue elevated to Japan just before Pearl Harbor. The Bush energy and transportation program looks to me like continuing to sell the steel after Pear Harbor. (With the FBI accusing Billy Mitchell of dual loyalties for flying for Chiang Kei Chek!)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe



(4) One of the major thesis of Mark's presentation was that we (railroaders and the nation) are sitting on a legacy--if no railroads existed today, we could not afford to just build them. As this legacy ages and eventually has to be replaced there are going to be some major problems.

(5) The other half of Mark's major thesis is that we have to determine what we want our rail system to be: a utility or a profit-making venture. As the rail legacy ages and is in need of replacement, this question will become more important, because we can't have both.

On point #4 - Did he make any comparisons and contrasts between constructing highways and railroads today? The "legacy" as is stated was constructed at a time when no other viable alternatives existed, and any region that wanted economic growth just had to have a railroad or go belly up. Today, most economic desires related to transportation revolve around the need to be located near an interstate. Yet, with the growth in world trade the need for transporation of bulk commodities (or commodities in bulk) is the perfect storm for a revival of rail infrastructure additions. The real question is if the old model of the sole proprietary franchise is obsolete for the needs of the future.

On point #5 - Why do we have to have one or the other when we can have both?

Rail infrastructure - utilities
Train operations - profit making ventures

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe


(8) That the average Trains' reader is 70 years old = Gabe's age x 2.421.

So by your calculations, you are 28.913672 years of age (at least at the time of this posting)! Do you have an atomic clock computer chip on your drivers liscense?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

Thanks for the clarification. My limited knowledge coupled with the fact that I am posting this information while doing other stuff causes some errors.

Gabe

No problem. That's why I hang around. Wish I could have been there myself. Might have made a few people uncomfortable...lol...of course I might have had them rolling...

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

I was really hoping to be there, particularly less than an hour from home, but other things were calling for my attention.

I just dont see how short lines can continue to survive, based on little or no investment in the property. The entire cycle of the line seems to be (and I use my hometown line as an example) that at one time the line is fairly well maintained, but with old rail and as the line falls more and more into disrepair, the service suffers, which is a never ending cycle. Traffic begins to dry up, meaning less money for on going maintennace, etc. Finally the railroad sells it to a short line...at which time the trains bounce along at 10mph till it is time to pull up the tracks. Sad.

Unless there is a strategic reason for lines, we will find more and more of this occuring.

I am amazed the average age of Trains subscribers is 70. Ouch.

ed

Ed-

Short lines operate in the way they do because that is what is required to make money. Short lines spun off from Class 1s almost always have traffic levels that are too low to support maintenance of the line as an ongoing concern. This requires the short line operator to grow the traffic to survive and often means that, at least initially, maintenance money (and all other funding) is very tight. Also, as the short line rarely receives the line in high quality condition.

On the other hand, short lines rarely need high speed track. Ten miles per hour is more than adequate to get the train from one end of the line to the other (and in some cases back to interchange) within the hours of service. As Class1s rarely service interchanges more than daily such a hurry would have no purpose.

The preservation of the line in operating condition, even at ten miles per hour preserves much of the operating assets including rail, crossties, OTM grade and subgrade and most importantly the legal continuation of the railroad ROW.

The growth of traffic and hopefully presence of competitive Class 1 interchanges coupled with some public assistance to account for at least some deferred maintenance (and hopefully 286K capacity in the future) assures more rail served areas for businesses to locate and to maintain the industrial base of our country.

LC

[MP173]

Gabe:

Yeah, I was thinking of those black geeps running up the Dundas grade with a long line of boxcars, while I was on my bike counting the cars. So, long ago.

There is a pretty good example of what can be done here in Northern Indiana. I am talking about the Ft Wayne - Chicago PRR mainline. When I moved up here, it was pretty busy with probably 25-30 Conrail trains per day. By 1982 or so, all those freights were moved over to the the NYC main.

To make a long story short, NS bought the line to allieviate congestion, it went to CSX as part of the Conrail settlement, and then went to Chicago Ft. Wayne and Eastern.

When NS purchased it, the track was upgraded to 40mph (no signals). There is still jointed rail. But the important thing is....THERE IS STILL RAIL in place.

Now, I maintain that someday this line may be an important railroad again. And I look at the shortline operators and wonder....is it possible that their lines could one day help with the coming infrastructure issue? Probably not, but they could piece lines together that could be come attractive.

Ditto the former Rock Island mainline from Chicago to Omaha. It is still in place. How valuable might that property be in 15 years as UP has to compete with BNSF's 2 mainlines across the midwest?

TPW? The former IC Omaha line?

There are many lines still left. Some are in shortline or regional's hands, no doubt waiting till the life support machine turns off. I dont know the answer to keeping those lines open in the near future, but believe it is something worth exploring, past the next quarter's shareholder's report.

ed

[gabe]

Sorry, the posting distorted my representation--try to picture the top line even with the crossover switch.

Gabe

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by macguy

Can you folks expand a little on these new sidings?

What's the new idea/way of doing it?

It is so hard to describe in words, but I will try.

Old siding on double track main:
_________________________
____/__________________________\_____________
__X______________________________X___________

New siding on double track main:

_____________________________
_______/_____________________________\_____________
________X__________________________X______________

This way--by allowing the siding to go beyond the crossover switch, they can work on any one siding while keeping both mains clear. I think Mark said there was another maintenance advantage, but it escapes me at the moment.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Can you folks expand a little on these new sidings?

What's the new idea/way of doing it?