Where to start, where to start, where to start? Well, you really didn't refute any of my arguments - just threw out insults.
You ignored my last paragraph where I stated that lines that have value should be kept. But honestly, many rail-trails are built on lines that have no economic viability as a rail route. I'm not going to be pretend to be an expert on Canadian economic factors, but my state had a lot of redundant rail lines torn up over the past 100 years. De-industrialization, the rust belt, coal/oil/logging changes and all that. So they still get some use, even if it from "yuppies and millennials" as Dakotafred so laughingly generalizes.
I'm sorry (well, not really) if I don't fit the railfan mold that thinks rail trails are satan's work and rail lines must always be preserved, no matter how worthless. World is not black and white. Grey does exist.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Miningman Zugmann says
Zugmann says
Miningman, Zug is a good guy. Read these.
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/166102.aspx
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/176043.aspx
MiningmanThe line from Milwaukee to Fond Du Lac is hardly irrelevant. I cannot imagine its total contribution to the GDP of US since its initial construction. Once this is gone, so is an important and vital link and growth to the future that has now been forsaken. Go ahead and fiddle away, but know this...that is not how your great country was built nor is it in the spirit of free markets as Dakotafred well pointed out.
The old C&NW line served its purpose and is now repurposed. It was literally deadwood that needed to be cut away.
It's not as if Fond du Lac and the other Fox Valley communities don't have rail service. They do. FDL is on CN's main line. Supporting two rail routes when one will suffice would be a waste of economic resources. Wasting such scarce resources is not the way to enjoy a vibrant economy.
We can argue as to whether the land should be made in to a trail as opposed to being returned to productive farm land that would be on the tax roles. But the rail line that once used the land served its purpose and is no longer needed.
Zugmann says:
"Railfans putting fingers in their ears and stamping the ground crying how there should be choo-choos on those worthless tracks is not going to win any wide spread support."'
Now I have seen some pretty silly and ridiculous comments here and there, not too often, but this one is just plain idiotic, empty headed, even spiteful and hateful. What a load of nonsense. You posted this on Jan 3rd, and there is yet a whole year to go, but it would take some kind of super moronic effort on someone's part to top this.
The line from Milwaukee to Fond Du Lac is hardly irrelevant. I cannot imagine its total contribution to the GDP of US since its initial construction. Once this is gone, so is an important and vital link and growth to the future that has now been forsaken. Go ahead and fiddle away, but know this...that is not how your great country was built nor is it in the spirit of free markets as Dakotafred well pointed out.
MidlandMike dakotafred Don't forget, all, in New York state, as reported by Trains Newswire, some of these benign bikers are trying to shut down an operating tourist line in favor of a trail. There will always be abusers of a good thing. Nevertheless, without the rails-to-trails law, former lines would be fragmented and never have the possibility of re-railing.
dakotafred Don't forget, all, in New York state, as reported by Trains Newswire, some of these benign bikers are trying to shut down an operating tourist line in favor of a trail.
Don't forget, all, in New York state, as reported by Trains Newswire, some of these benign bikers are trying to shut down an operating tourist line in favor of a trail.
There will always be abusers of a good thing. Nevertheless, without the rails-to-trails law, former lines would be fragmented and never have the possibility of re-railing.
[quote user="schlimm"]
dakotafred Yes, railroad rights of way-to-bike paths is a travesty of economic justice. Just try to take them back for their original purpose, despite provisions for same! The bike riders are part of the Fanatical Green Lobby that should never be given the opening. If it were up to me, the rights of way would grow up in trees and weeds. That would pay as much in taxes and preserve the possibility of their return to usefulness. It is generally known as the free market. The RoW is preserved and if business conditions dictate, might become a rail line again. At least they now serve a useful social purpose, which is the entire point of rails and economics.
Yes, railroad rights of way-to-bike paths is a travesty of economic justice. Just try to take them back for their original purpose, despite provisions for same! The bike riders are part of the Fanatical Green Lobby that should never be given the opening.
If it were up to me, the rights of way would grow up in trees and weeds. That would pay as much in taxes and preserve the possibility of their return to usefulness.
It is generally known as the free market. The RoW is preserved and if business conditions dictate, might become a rail line again. At least they now serve a useful social purpose, which is the entire point of rails and economics.
Free market, give me a break. Once a political entity -- city or county park district -- owns a trail, the free market has nothing to do with it, only politics. With the bikers having the ability to turn out in superior numbers -- and half the board members usually being yuppies or millenials themselves -- the poor old free market doesn't stand a chance. "Useful social purpose" trumps useful economic activity every time.
schlimm Free market, give me a break. Once a political entity -- county or city park district -- owns a trail, the free market has nothing to do with it, only politics. With the bike riders having the ability to turn out in superior numbers -- and half the board members probably being yuppies or millenials themselves -- the poor old market doesn't have a chance. "Useful social purpose" trumps useful economic activity every time. dakotafred Yes, railroad rights of way-to-bike paths is a travesty of economic justice. Just try to take them back for their original purpose, despite provisions for same! The bike riders are part of the Fanatical Green Lobby that should never be given the opening. If it were up to me, the rights of way would grow up in trees and weeds. That would pay as much in taxes and preserve the possibility of their return to usefulness. It is generally known as the free market. The RoW is preserved and if business conditions dictate, might become a rail line again. At least they now serve a useful social purpose, which is the entire point of rails and economics.
Free market, give me a break. Once a political entity -- county or city park district -- owns a trail, the free market has nothing to do with it, only politics. With the bike riders having the ability to turn out in superior numbers -- and half the board members probably being yuppies or millenials themselves -- the poor old market doesn't have a chance. "Useful social purpose" trumps useful economic activity every time.
dakotafred Yes, railroad rights of way-to-bike paths is a travesty of economic justice. Just try to take them back for their original purpose, despite provisions for same! The bike riders are part of the Fanatical Green Lobby that should never be given the opening. If it were up to me, the rights of way would grow up in trees and weeds. That would pay as much in taxes and preserve the possibility of their return to usefulness.
Building a new line on an old roadbed is hardly new. For those with rail-trail NITU/CITU status, the railroad has to buy back the line and the rail trail owner with NITU status must sell if buyer meets or exceeds the law's requirements. There are at least 9 cases of re-conversion and 16 applications that I know of. There are at least two cases (IN & GA) where the railroad was rebuilt and abandoned again.
During the last STB Ex Parte review of the rail trail process, there were enough stupid comments made to choke a horse by trail proponents, detractors (NARPO/NIMBY's/BANANA's) and attorneys operating way outside their area of expertise. The Florida Law School Professor ripping the NARPO attorney to shreds is a classic audio-bite in that last Ex Parte proceeding.
...And I have witnessed several infractions by rail-trail owners that will result in the loss of significant portions of rail trails if the infractions are ever discovered by the other side. There is a case here in Colorado that even the STB screwed-up on.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
ATSFGuyI think it's best to keep the lines that have value running and convert/drop the lines with the least or no value into bike paths or railtrails.
Which is the current practice.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I think it's best to keep the lines that have value running and convert/drop the lines with the least or no value into bike paths or railtrails.
How many rail-trails have seriously been considered for re-railing? I only know of one short segment, about 2 miles, in upper Michigan where rail was put back in to a new mine mill, without any apparent controversy. I appreciate the rail-trails for their historic and recreation value.
zugmannAm I saying every single rail line that falls on a hard time should be converted? No. But I see no harm in converting lines that really have no chance in hell of being viable again.
And IF the need for the line resurfaces, the MONEY will see that the line is restored to a rail operation. Mom & Pop 2 car a week industries ARE NOT the money.
We have several rail-trails near me. Many of the ROWs were estbalished many decades ago when economic/transportation needs were completely different than today. Even in their last 10-20 years of rail use, they really weren't needed. So I have no issue with them being converted to a trail if there is no need for trains. At least it has some use. Letting it grow wild is kind of a waste for all the work done to establish that pathway. And it's not like it's all hippy-environ-beetle-driving-pot-smoking-bernie-donating-birkenstock-wearing-craft-beer-drinking-cylco-vegetarian people on them. It's people from all over. Old people, families, pet owners, guys jogging, etc.
The rail-trail lobby learned how to play the game quite well. Railfans putting fingers in their ears and stamping the ground crying how there should be choo-choos on those worthless tracks is not going to win any wide spread support.
Am I saying every single rail line that falls on a hard time should be converted? No. But I see no harm in converting lines that really have no chance in hell of being viable again.
Sorry to hear about this...tearing up rail in 2016 /17 is short sighted. Period. Economics and the the "world" can change on a dime. The cost replacing is in the stratoshere and may not be possible to do once a right of way relinquished, but we all know that! C&NW Milwaukee to Fond Du Lac was the subject of many photos and articles in Trains...what a blow. A bike path, indeed.
Sad sights on my recent visit to Wisconsin.....
CP rail yard (former Milwaukee Road Muskego Yard) completely empty except for maybe 12 rail cars and three GP switcher locomotives.
ex-C&NW passenger main between Milwaukee and Fond Du Lac completely ripped up and now a bike path. That just leaves a more circuitous CP Rail to Duplainville then North on the former Soo Line (now CN) for those dreamers that still think Milwaukee - Fond Du Lac - Oshkosh - Green Bay passenger service is still possible in the state. Very sad.
The connection track at Duplainville between CP and CN while still in decent shape has a heavy layer of rust on the top of the rail.
Also noticed the former C&NW passenger connection to CP just South of the Amtrak station and also served as connection to Jones Island (Port of Milwaukee) Industrial area is also gone........ripped up by CP. Of course it will probably be $3-5 million to restore.
The last Chicago to Milwaukee EIS for expansion to 10 trains each way between Milwaukee and Chicago indicated that UP is only running 12-14 trains a day on the ex-C&NW C&M line. EIS stated that if Chicago to Milwaukee goes to 110 mph they would want to shift some or all of the CP Rail frieghts to the now UP C&M line to increase capacity. Good luck with that. Pretty sure UP will fight that proposal tooth and nail but we'll see when the time comes.
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