Sad sights on my recent visit to Wisconsin.....
CP rail yard (former Milwaukee Road Muskego Yard) completely empty except for maybe 12 rail cars and three GP switcher locomotives.
ex-C&NW passenger main between Milwaukee and Fond Du Lac completely ripped up and now a bike path. That just leaves a more circuitous CP Rail to Duplainville then North on the former Soo Line (now CN) for those dreamers that still think Milwaukee - Fond Du Lac - Oshkosh - Green Bay passenger service is still possible in the state. Very sad.
The connection track at Duplainville between CP and CN while still in decent shape has a heavy layer of rust on the top of the rail.
Also noticed the former C&NW passenger connection to CP just South of the Amtrak station and also served as connection to Jones Island (Port of Milwaukee) Industrial area is also gone........ripped up by CP. Of course it will probably be $3-5 million to restore.
The last Chicago to Milwaukee EIS for expansion to 10 trains each way between Milwaukee and Chicago indicated that UP is only running 12-14 trains a day on the ex-C&NW C&M line. EIS stated that if Chicago to Milwaukee goes to 110 mph they would want to shift some or all of the CP Rail frieghts to the now UP C&M line to increase capacity. Good luck with that. Pretty sure UP will fight that proposal tooth and nail but we'll see when the time comes.
Sorry to hear about this...tearing up rail in 2016 /17 is short sighted. Period. Economics and the the "world" can change on a dime. The cost replacing is in the stratoshere and may not be possible to do once a right of way relinquished, but we all know that! C&NW Milwaukee to Fond Du Lac was the subject of many photos and articles in Trains...what a blow. A bike path, indeed.
Yes, railroad rights of way-to-bike paths is a travesty of economic justice. Just try to take them back for their original purpose, despite provisions for same! The bike riders are part of the Fanatical Green Lobby that should never be given the opening.
If it were up to me, the rights of way would grow up in trees and weeds. That would pay as much in taxes and preserve the possibility of their return to usefulness.
We have several rail-trails near me. Many of the ROWs were estbalished many decades ago when economic/transportation needs were completely different than today. Even in their last 10-20 years of rail use, they really weren't needed. So I have no issue with them being converted to a trail if there is no need for trains. At least it has some use. Letting it grow wild is kind of a waste for all the work done to establish that pathway. And it's not like it's all hippy-environ-beetle-driving-pot-smoking-bernie-donating-birkenstock-wearing-craft-beer-drinking-cylco-vegetarian people on them. It's people from all over. Old people, families, pet owners, guys jogging, etc.
The rail-trail lobby learned how to play the game quite well. Railfans putting fingers in their ears and stamping the ground crying how there should be choo-choos on those worthless tracks is not going to win any wide spread support.
Am I saying every single rail line that falls on a hard time should be converted? No. But I see no harm in converting lines that really have no chance in hell of being viable again.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmannAm I saying every single rail line that falls on a hard time should be converted? No. But I see no harm in converting lines that really have no chance in hell of being viable again.
And IF the need for the line resurfaces, the MONEY will see that the line is restored to a rail operation. Mom & Pop 2 car a week industries ARE NOT the money.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
How many rail-trails have seriously been considered for re-railing? I only know of one short segment, about 2 miles, in upper Michigan where rail was put back in to a new mine mill, without any apparent controversy. I appreciate the rail-trails for their historic and recreation value.
I think it's best to keep the lines that have value running and convert/drop the lines with the least or no value into bike paths or railtrails.
ATSFGuyI think it's best to keep the lines that have value running and convert/drop the lines with the least or no value into bike paths or railtrails.
Which is the current practice.
dakotafred Yes, railroad rights of way-to-bike paths is a travesty of economic justice. Just try to take them back for their original purpose, despite provisions for same! The bike riders are part of the Fanatical Green Lobby that should never be given the opening. If it were up to me, the rights of way would grow up in trees and weeds. That would pay as much in taxes and preserve the possibility of their return to usefulness.
It is generally known as the free market. The RoW is preserved and if business conditions dictate, might become a rail line again. At least they now serve a useful social purpose, which is the entire point of rails and economics.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Don't forget, all, in New York state, as reported by Trains Newswire, some of these benign bikers are trying to shut down an operating tourist line in favor of a trail.
dakotafred Don't forget, all, in New York state, as reported by Trains Newswire, some of these benign bikers are trying to shut down an operating tourist line in favor of a trail.
Building a new line on an old roadbed is hardly new. For those with rail-trail NITU/CITU status, the railroad has to buy back the line and the rail trail owner with NITU status must sell if buyer meets or exceeds the law's requirements. There are at least 9 cases of re-conversion and 16 applications that I know of. There are at least two cases (IN & GA) where the railroad was rebuilt and abandoned again.
During the last STB Ex Parte review of the rail trail process, there were enough stupid comments made to choke a horse by trail proponents, detractors (NARPO/NIMBY's/BANANA's) and attorneys operating way outside their area of expertise. The Florida Law School Professor ripping the NARPO attorney to shreds is a classic audio-bite in that last Ex Parte proceeding.
...And I have witnessed several infractions by rail-trail owners that will result in the loss of significant portions of rail trails if the infractions are ever discovered by the other side. There is a case here in Colorado that even the STB screwed-up on.
schlimm Free market, give me a break. Once a political entity -- county or city park district -- owns a trail, the free market has nothing to do with it, only politics. With the bike riders having the ability to turn out in superior numbers -- and half the board members probably being yuppies or millenials themselves -- the poor old market doesn't have a chance. "Useful social purpose" trumps useful economic activity every time. dakotafred Yes, railroad rights of way-to-bike paths is a travesty of economic justice. Just try to take them back for their original purpose, despite provisions for same! The bike riders are part of the Fanatical Green Lobby that should never be given the opening. If it were up to me, the rights of way would grow up in trees and weeds. That would pay as much in taxes and preserve the possibility of their return to usefulness. It is generally known as the free market. The RoW is preserved and if business conditions dictate, might become a rail line again. At least they now serve a useful social purpose, which is the entire point of rails and economics.
Free market, give me a break. Once a political entity -- county or city park district -- owns a trail, the free market has nothing to do with it, only politics. With the bike riders having the ability to turn out in superior numbers -- and half the board members probably being yuppies or millenials themselves -- the poor old market doesn't have a chance. "Useful social purpose" trumps useful economic activity every time.
[quote user="schlimm"]
dakotafred Yes, railroad rights of way-to-bike paths is a travesty of economic justice. Just try to take them back for their original purpose, despite provisions for same! The bike riders are part of the Fanatical Green Lobby that should never be given the opening. If it were up to me, the rights of way would grow up in trees and weeds. That would pay as much in taxes and preserve the possibility of their return to usefulness. It is generally known as the free market. The RoW is preserved and if business conditions dictate, might become a rail line again. At least they now serve a useful social purpose, which is the entire point of rails and economics.
Free market, give me a break. Once a political entity -- city or county park district -- owns a trail, the free market has nothing to do with it, only politics. With the bikers having the ability to turn out in superior numbers -- and half the board members usually being yuppies or millenials themselves -- the poor old free market doesn't stand a chance. "Useful social purpose" trumps useful economic activity every time.
There will always be abusers of a good thing. Nevertheless, without the rails-to-trails law, former lines would be fragmented and never have the possibility of re-railing.
MidlandMike dakotafred Don't forget, all, in New York state, as reported by Trains Newswire, some of these benign bikers are trying to shut down an operating tourist line in favor of a trail. There will always be abusers of a good thing. Nevertheless, without the rails-to-trails law, former lines would be fragmented and never have the possibility of re-railing.
Zugmann says:
"Railfans putting fingers in their ears and stamping the ground crying how there should be choo-choos on those worthless tracks is not going to win any wide spread support."'
Now I have seen some pretty silly and ridiculous comments here and there, not too often, but this one is just plain idiotic, empty headed, even spiteful and hateful. What a load of nonsense. You posted this on Jan 3rd, and there is yet a whole year to go, but it would take some kind of super moronic effort on someone's part to top this.
The line from Milwaukee to Fond Du Lac is hardly irrelevant. I cannot imagine its total contribution to the GDP of US since its initial construction. Once this is gone, so is an important and vital link and growth to the future that has now been forsaken. Go ahead and fiddle away, but know this...that is not how your great country was built nor is it in the spirit of free markets as Dakotafred well pointed out.
MiningmanThe line from Milwaukee to Fond Du Lac is hardly irrelevant. I cannot imagine its total contribution to the GDP of US since its initial construction. Once this is gone, so is an important and vital link and growth to the future that has now been forsaken. Go ahead and fiddle away, but know this...that is not how your great country was built nor is it in the spirit of free markets as Dakotafred well pointed out.
The old C&NW line served its purpose and is now repurposed. It was literally deadwood that needed to be cut away.
It's not as if Fond du Lac and the other Fox Valley communities don't have rail service. They do. FDL is on CN's main line. Supporting two rail routes when one will suffice would be a waste of economic resources. Wasting such scarce resources is not the way to enjoy a vibrant economy.
We can argue as to whether the land should be made in to a trail as opposed to being returned to productive farm land that would be on the tax roles. But the rail line that once used the land served its purpose and is no longer needed.
Miningman Zugmann says
Zugmann says
Miningman, Zug is a good guy. Read these.
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/166102.aspx
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/176043.aspx
Where to start, where to start, where to start? Well, you really didn't refute any of my arguments - just threw out insults.
You ignored my last paragraph where I stated that lines that have value should be kept. But honestly, many rail-trails are built on lines that have no economic viability as a rail route. I'm not going to be pretend to be an expert on Canadian economic factors, but my state had a lot of redundant rail lines torn up over the past 100 years. De-industrialization, the rust belt, coal/oil/logging changes and all that. So they still get some use, even if it from "yuppies and millennials" as Dakotafred so laughingly generalizes.
I'm sorry (well, not really) if I don't fit the railfan mold that thinks rail trails are satan's work and rail lines must always be preserved, no matter how worthless. World is not black and white. Grey does exist.
Old men squaking about returning to the world of their youth....
Mergers, the Interstate and Staggers ended the need for five lines into every podunk town, the mines are played out, and pulp got clobbered by the Internet. CN planted their flag on the pieces they wanted to get to Chicago, and the abandoned lines got turned over to that damned snowmobile lobby.
Many railfans refuse to understand the economics of scale that are required to keep rail line viable and operating. Volume, Volume, Volume. The lines that are being abandoned don't handle a sufficient volume of traffic to at least cover the costs of the maintenance to keep the line operating - this isn't just short term downswing in traffic but a minimal level of traffic over a sustained period of time, with no prospects of ever obtaining a sufficient level of traffic to warrent continuing the line in operation.
mudchicken MidlandMike dakotafred Don't forget, all, in New York state, as reported by Trains Newswire, some of these benign bikers are trying to shut down an operating tourist line in favor of a trail. There will always be abusers of a good thing. Nevertheless, without the rails-to-trails law, former lines would be fragmented and never have the possibility of re-railing. The New York Case has absolutely nothing to do with the rails-to-trails law. Different ballgame, different set of rules. Nothing to do with 16USC1247(d).
The New York Case has absolutely nothing to do with the rails-to-trails law. Different ballgame, different set of rules. Nothing to do with 16USC1247(d).
Tell us how different, do.
Zugmann- If Wanswheel says you're a good guy then so be it, good enough for me. Thanks for the links Wanswheel.
BaltACD Many railfans refuse to understand the economics of scale that are required to keep rail line viable and operating. Volume, Volume, Volume. The lines that are being abandoned don't handle a sufficient volume of traffic to at least cover the costs of the maintenance to keep the line operating - this isn't just short term downswing in traffic but a minimal level of traffic over a sustained period of time, with no prospects of ever obtaining a sufficient level of traffic to warrent continuing the line in operation.
Not necessarily buying into this argument. I agree railfans can be unrealistic at times but rail line abandonment in a LOT OF CASES has to due with lack of marketing or care by railroad management vs a real dearth of available business to keep the line open. Case in point, look at the Wisconsin and Southern which pasted together a bunch of abandoned or soon to be abandoned rail lines and used their inherited Milwaukee Road marketing finesse to bring significant traffic back to some of those lines. You have to wonder why the former Class one that owned the same line prior to sale or abandonment didn't really lift a finger or applied a business killing and large per car SURCHARGE to use the line in rail traffic routings.
I have mentioned CP in a lot of my pasts posts because I have seen CP abandon lines that could have been sold to another entity for money but instead were abandoned for no money. Likewise seen CP abandon rail lines that with some marketing attention could have been brought back from the abyss. CP doesn't at the moment seem to care about traffic in Wisconsin but rather sees it's line as just a through route in which to minimize all costs related to maintenance. So you have a situation with UP, W&S and BNSF picking off what should be CP traffic opportunities. Sad to watch but when you have a rail management distracted or focused on who knows what else......online business declines over time and eventually disappears.
Did CP offer to sell it's airline to W&S prior to abandonment as W&S already has trackage rights to reach it? What about the sharing of Muskego Yard with W&S instead of just letting all business evaporate that supports it? What about attempting to sell the Beer Line to W&S prior to abandonment since it also is reached via W&S traffic rights? Things that make you wonder.
Airline abandonment:
http://www.abandonedrails.com/Elm_Grove_Wisconsin
Abandoned former C&NW right of way that this thread is referring to. Most of it is rurual and traverses farmland but there were online businesses along the way that shifted to trucks and as well plenty of future land where a sizeable new rail based business could locate. One wonders what marketing was done to assess the line for either recovery method?
http://www.abandonedrails.com/West_Bend_to_Fond_du_Lac
Read the comments left by railroaders below the linked route map above.
Fred: See if you can get your widdle mind around this:
(1) The line abandoned two years prior to the Rails to Trails legislation (poorly structured as it is) was put through congress.
(2) The line has no NITU/CITU status or protection,
(3) Common Carrier status ended at abandonment.
(4) New York bought the line after abandonment and never re-applied for common carrier status. The Olympic trains operated under a temporary FRA waiver that expired with the Olympics.
(5) New York owns a piece of property that happens to have rail on parts of it. They are under no obligation to operate a railroad or a trail. It's just another piece of real estate.
Like Zugs, I'm not exactly thrilled with either side when the "expert at everything, proficient at none" dimestore lawyers stick their noses into discussions and pontificate where they are clearly in the dark with regards to reality. Some of the folks pushing removal of the rail are in for a rude shock if the rail comes up; abandoned rail property does NOT automatically revert to the adjoiners once trail use is not possible or never happened in the first place. Trail status is hardly automatic either.
Try to understand the fine line that Tree and the Adirondack folks are walking here. (They are trying to avoid a similar fate as the Peoria Heights line and several others.)
I'm away from my reference material, but the Wisconsin MILW line at the center of this thread may or may not have NITU/CITU status. Putting something back into service requires considerable $$$ and demands solid a return on investment. Woulda-Coulda-Shoulda doesn't pass the basic smell test. If it is a rail trail under the NITU/CITU status, better hope the trail owner has its act together. Many have no clue on what they've signed on for.
dakotafredFree market, give me a break. Once a political entity -- city or county park district -- owns a trail, the free market has nothing to do with it, only politics. With the bikers having the ability to turn out in superior numbers -- and half the board members usually being yuppies or millenials themselves -- the poor old free market doesn't stand a chance. "Useful social purpose" trumps useful economic activity every time.
I suggest you read an elementary econ text and maybe an intro poli sci text as well. You clearly ignore the free market decisions made by railroads to abandon poorly-performing lines, which in the case of the Fond du Lac line, no other operator sought, as railroaders Greyhounds and Balt and zugmann make clear.
I participated in much of the rail destruction referred to. I was on the WC when the CNW Fond Du Lac line was torn out from Eden South. There was really no justification to have the line unless the WC wanted to short haul itself. No local business at all. I worked in the Menomenee Valley when there was still business in the valley, its mostly gone now. At one time the city of Milwaukee amounted to 20% of the overall railroad business. Large manufacturers were disappearing at an alarming rate in the area. We knew it was a matter of time before it was all gone. I started right after the Milwaukee hump was closed, they were just starting to remove the tracks. They tore out the airline yard about that time as well.
I was there when the equipment in the wheel shop was sold and removed.
I've been gone from the Midwest now for 15 years and I feel like my home in the Midwest is gone. Many of the people I worked with over the years are dead. I cannot go home anymore because I don't recognize it.
Randy
Miningman Zugmann- If Wanswheel says you're a good guy then so be it, good enough for me. Thanks for the links Wanswheel.
Wanswheel is pulling your leg. Besides, I still have 360 days to top that post.
zugmann Miningman Zugmann- If Wanswheel says you're a good guy then so be it, good enough for me. Thanks for the links Wanswheel. Wanswheel is pulling your leg. Besides, I still have 360 days to top that post.
Don't shorthaul yourself Zug, but I do look forward to reading your future efforts.
Also to provide a bit more perspective Miningman's local railroads (especially Omnitrax's Hudson Bay and Carlton Trail railways) have engaged in demarketing and stripping of the worst kind, to the point where an entire subdivision with a couple key anchor customers (20+ cars daily each) was abandoned; those customers now truck to CN at North Battleford, Sk. And more recently grain shipments to the port of Churchill, MB have stopped, partly a side-effect of Canadian grain policy decisions but also because Omnitrax failed to put any money into the line and the track now resembles a dirt trail for long stretches.
Many other Canadian lines that truly were worthless have been abandoned, and some have been converted to trails but most have not, and there have been several key routes ripped up that should have been kept.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
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