Wasn't there a line in NW Wisconsin that returned to service in the last 2 years? I think it was near Cameron or Rice Lake?
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
I recall the Tshuletin RR in northern Quebec was acquired by the first nation group to maintain service on a idle iron ore rail line. Then a few years ago a Quebec pension fund wanted to finance the building of a new parallel railroad. South of there the proposed line would have paralleled 2 working ore hauling lines from the main iron mining region. It sounds likes it's either feast or famine.
SD70M-2 Dude- Its a number of different bands getting together to purchase it. Neglected to mention the Tshuietin Rail in Northern Quebec. These are very interesting developments and bode well for the North. The line to Churchill has to happen!
Interesting fact, which I'm certain you know of, but the others likely do not, is that in Churchill on Halloween, they have helicopters patrolling the skies above the kids watching out for and scaring off the Polar Bears, which can wander into town.
I've taken that VIA train up to Churchill from Winnipeg in the nineties..now that is a pretty demanding trip to take.
I know. Pressure is on. But those that know me, know that is a challenge I am up for.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Miningman If the rail line up to the Port of Churchill is lost it would signal a change in not only Canadian but a North American strategic philosophy and positioning. It is almost inconceivable that this would be allowed to occur and yet there it is happenening in plain sight. Several Native Indian bands are getting together and looking into picking it up, much the same way they did with the newly formed Keewatin Railway Company, (essentially) running from The Pas ( for our American cousins that would be pronounced The "Paw")-Flin Flon-Lynn Lake. That would be a very smart move on their part. The Keewatin Railway Company, as far as I know, is the only 100% Aboriginal owned and operated railway line in Nprth America, ever. It is going well from all accounts. The Port of Churchill would be rendered useless with out a rail line. The only other way to get across 800 miles of wilderness would be using airships, as in Zeppelins and such.
If the rail line up to the Port of Churchill is lost it would signal a change in not only Canadian but a North American strategic philosophy and positioning. It is almost inconceivable that this would be allowed to occur and yet there it is happenening in plain sight. Several Native Indian bands are getting together and looking into picking it up, much the same way they did with the newly formed Keewatin Railway Company, (essentially) running from The Pas ( for our American cousins that would be pronounced The "Paw")-Flin Flon-Lynn Lake. That would be a very smart move on their part. The Keewatin Railway Company, as far as I know, is the only 100% Aboriginal owned and operated railway line in Nprth America, ever. It is going well from all accounts.
The Port of Churchill would be rendered useless with out a rail line. The only other way to get across 800 miles of wilderness would be using airships, as in Zeppelins and such.
I did hear about the proposed sale of HBRY to the Natives (can't remember which band) and hopefully it goes through. Keewatin and Tshuietin Rail (the other Native-owned railway, in northern Quebec) both seem to have been doing quite well since they started.
Oh and you're down to 358 days Zug...
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70M-2Dude writes- "Also to provide a bit more perspective Miningman's local railroads (especially Omnitrax's Hudson Bay and Carlton Trail railways) have engaged in demarketing and stripping of the worst kind, to the point where an entire subdivision with a couple key anchor customers (20+ cars daily each) was abandoned; those customers now truck to CN at North Battleford, Sk. And more recently grain shipments to the port of Churchill, MB have stopped, partly a side-effect of Canadian grain policy decisions but also because Omnitrax failed to put any money into the line and the track now resembles a dirt trail for long stretches."
Well thank you for that SD70M-2Dude. If the rail line up to the Port of Churchill is lost it would signal a change in not only Canadian but a North American strategic philosophy and positioning. It is almost inconceivable that this would be allowed to occur and yet there it is happenening in plain sight. Several Native Indian bands are getting together and looking into picking it up, much the same way they did with the newly formed Keewatin Railway Company, (essentially) running from The Pas ( for our American cousins that would be pronounced The "Paw")-Flin Flon-Lynn Lake. That would be a very smart move on their part. The Keewatin Railway Company, as far as I know, is the only 100% Aboriginal owned and operated railway line in Nprth America, ever. It is going well from all accounts.
As for Carlton Trails Railway....I do check it out whenever I get to Prince Albert ( which most of us have to do up here for shopping and medical at times). The big yard in town seems to be relatively full, the roundhouse is in good shape but the level of activity is pretty modest, thats for sure. Caught one of their trains with a long line of grain hoppers behind 3 units in Hague. Watched them pick up more cars there but it was dark and could not make out the units too well. The centre one was marked "Kansas Central" with C&NW type paint scheme and it was really sounding very very rough. Extremely loud blasting type exhaust. It was not well.
The general picture seems everything up here is hanging on by a thread, which considering the vast distances and the incredible resources, ( potash, wheat, base metal concentrate, oil) makes little sense.
The Ontario Northland Railway is also faring quite poorly and is in grave danger of extinction. The line from Cochrane to Moosonee would be kept running by the Provincial Government as it is the only access to James Bay and the settlements on route.
Yes, I definitely live on the edge of the frontier here and our perspective on things is quite different. Railroads are essential.
I've been on a rails to trails line in the Black Hills of South Dakota. There, it worked out perfectly. You have nice scenery on an easy grade where a railroad would never again be economically feasible.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Getting back to the original post, the line in question, sometime referred to as the "Airline," was largely used for passenger trains, which were still abundant in the 1950s when I lived in the area. Outside of the usual grain elevators, canning companies, lumber yards, etc., there was never significant freight business on the Airline, at least not in my lifetime.
The through freights generally took the Janesville line (the original route to the Fox River Valley) from the junction at 9th St. in Fond du Lac and headed south-southwest to Clyman Junction where they joined the Milwaukee-Twin Cities main line and headed east towards Butler Yard. And vice-versa for Milwaukee-Fox River Valley freights.
As the need for the line lessened, it was downgraded. Ownership passed to a shortline, Fox River Valley Railroad, which eventually became part of WC and the pruning began.
John Timm
Miningman zardoz...you very conveniently left out what he said which is as follows: "Railfans putting fingers in their ears and stamping the ground crying how there should be choo-choos on those worthless tracks is not going to win any wide spread support."' I do not need any introspection on that load of crap.
zardoz...you very conveniently left out what he said which is as follows:
"Railfans putting fingers in their ears and stamping the ground crying how there should be choo-choos on those worthless tracks is not going to win any wide spread support."'
I do not need any introspection on that load of crap.
Well, I was going to give you some, but if you don't want it...
That's ok. All that I ask is that if you are going to insult me, do it with creativity. Makes it more fun.
359 days.
schlimmI'll second that. Zug makes creative, yet objective analyses, sometimes using colorful language. He knows what he's talking about and does not have a pre-conceived agenda.
Zug has no clue what he is talking about. Why anyone listens to him is beyond me.
There's several examples here in the upper Midwest where lines that SHOULD have been saved but were taken out but one that comes to my mind here in Minnesota was the ex-GN secondary mainline between Willmar and St. Cloud. A former BN/BNSF executive acquaintance of mine told me personally that they regretted that decision big-time.
n012944It is not a load of crap, it is the truth. It is something that some railfans post way to often on the interwebs.
Alas, it's been part of the strategy of the "trail advocates" in NY as well... The "rail fans" want to have a railroad to play with...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
zardoz Miningman Now I have seen some pretty silly and ridiculous comments here and there, not too often, but this one is just plain idiotic, empty headed, even spiteful and hateful. What a load of nonsense. You posted this on Jan 3rd, and there is yet a whole year to go, but it would take some kind of super moronic effort on someone's part to top this. Gee, who peed in your coffee? Zug is one of the most level-headed posters on this forum, and with his railroad experience he gives us a voice with a knowledge base. So as far as "loads of nonsense", perhaps some introspection is in order.
Miningman Now I have seen some pretty silly and ridiculous comments here and there, not too often, but this one is just plain idiotic, empty headed, even spiteful and hateful. What a load of nonsense. You posted this on Jan 3rd, and there is yet a whole year to go, but it would take some kind of super moronic effort on someone's part to top this.
Gee, who peed in your coffee?
Zug is one of the most level-headed posters on this forum, and with his railroad experience he gives us a voice with a knowledge base. So as far as "loads of nonsense", perhaps some introspection is in order.
I'll second that. Zug makes creative, yet objective analyses, sometimes using colorful language. He knows what he's talking about and does not have a pre-conceived agenda.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
It is not a load of crap, it is the truth. It is something that some railfans post way to often on the interwebs.
An "expensive model collector"
Zug is right, though. The same sort of behavior happened with the general public, political leaders, etc. when Penn Central's trustees proposed abandonment of money-losing branches and even secondary mains in the early 1970's.
MiningmanNow I have seen some pretty silly and ridiculous comments here and there, not too often, but this one is just plain idiotic, empty headed, even spiteful and hateful. What a load of nonsense. You posted this on Jan 3rd, and there is yet a whole year to go, but it would take some kind of super moronic effort on someone's part to top this.
dakotafred Don't forget, all, in New York state, as reported by Trains Newswire, some of these benign bikers are trying to shut down an operating tourist line in favor of a trail.
Don't forget, all, in New York state, as reported by Trains Newswire, some of these benign bikers are trying to shut down an operating tourist line in favor of a trail.
As MC notes, this one has nothing to with the traditional rails-to-trails. It's not even the hikers, bikers, and snowmobilers. It's a bunch of rich folks who want everyone out of their woods. The rails have to come up before they can work on getting everyone else out.
You'll probably never see a trail there. That's not their true goal.
To my knowledge, the national rails-to-trails organization has effectively disavowed the efforts in the Adirondacks.
There are a number of abandoned rail routes in this area - some have been gone since at least the 1960's, their economic viability long since having vanished. Two I can think of within 15 miles of me had as their rationale transloading for ships on the St Lawrence River - a practice that made sense in the 1800's, but doesn't even come close now.
One of those lines is now an ATV trail. The other has a regional water line now installed under it.
zugmann Miningman Zugmann- If Wanswheel says you're a good guy then so be it, good enough for me. Thanks for the links Wanswheel. Wanswheel is pulling your leg. Besides, I still have 360 days to top that post.
Miningman Zugmann- If Wanswheel says you're a good guy then so be it, good enough for me. Thanks for the links Wanswheel.
Zugmann- If Wanswheel says you're a good guy then so be it, good enough for me. Thanks for the links Wanswheel.
Wanswheel is pulling your leg. Besides, I still have 360 days to top that post.
Don't shorthaul yourself Zug, but I do look forward to reading your future efforts.
Also to provide a bit more perspective Miningman's local railroads (especially Omnitrax's Hudson Bay and Carlton Trail railways) have engaged in demarketing and stripping of the worst kind, to the point where an entire subdivision with a couple key anchor customers (20+ cars daily each) was abandoned; those customers now truck to CN at North Battleford, Sk. And more recently grain shipments to the port of Churchill, MB have stopped, partly a side-effect of Canadian grain policy decisions but also because Omnitrax failed to put any money into the line and the track now resembles a dirt trail for long stretches.
Many other Canadian lines that truly were worthless have been abandoned, and some have been converted to trails but most have not, and there have been several key routes ripped up that should have been kept.
I participated in much of the rail destruction referred to. I was on the WC when the CNW Fond Du Lac line was torn out from Eden South. There was really no justification to have the line unless the WC wanted to short haul itself. No local business at all. I worked in the Menomenee Valley when there was still business in the valley, its mostly gone now. At one time the city of Milwaukee amounted to 20% of the overall railroad business. Large manufacturers were disappearing at an alarming rate in the area. We knew it was a matter of time before it was all gone. I started right after the Milwaukee hump was closed, they were just starting to remove the tracks. They tore out the airline yard about that time as well.
I was there when the equipment in the wheel shop was sold and removed.
I've been gone from the Midwest now for 15 years and I feel like my home in the Midwest is gone. Many of the people I worked with over the years are dead. I cannot go home anymore because I don't recognize it.
Randy
dakotafredFree market, give me a break. Once a political entity -- city or county park district -- owns a trail, the free market has nothing to do with it, only politics. With the bikers having the ability to turn out in superior numbers -- and half the board members usually being yuppies or millenials themselves -- the poor old free market doesn't stand a chance. "Useful social purpose" trumps useful economic activity every time.
I suggest you read an elementary econ text and maybe an intro poli sci text as well. You clearly ignore the free market decisions made by railroads to abandon poorly-performing lines, which in the case of the Fond du Lac line, no other operator sought, as railroaders Greyhounds and Balt and zugmann make clear.
Fred: See if you can get your widdle mind around this:
(1) The line abandoned two years prior to the Rails to Trails legislation (poorly structured as it is) was put through congress.
(2) The line has no NITU/CITU status or protection,
(3) Common Carrier status ended at abandonment.
(4) New York bought the line after abandonment and never re-applied for common carrier status. The Olympic trains operated under a temporary FRA waiver that expired with the Olympics.
(5) New York owns a piece of property that happens to have rail on parts of it. They are under no obligation to operate a railroad or a trail. It's just another piece of real estate.
Like Zugs, I'm not exactly thrilled with either side when the "expert at everything, proficient at none" dimestore lawyers stick their noses into discussions and pontificate where they are clearly in the dark with regards to reality. Some of the folks pushing removal of the rail are in for a rude shock if the rail comes up; abandoned rail property does NOT automatically revert to the adjoiners once trail use is not possible or never happened in the first place. Trail status is hardly automatic either.
Try to understand the fine line that Tree and the Adirondack folks are walking here. (They are trying to avoid a similar fate as the Peoria Heights line and several others.)
I'm away from my reference material, but the Wisconsin MILW line at the center of this thread may or may not have NITU/CITU status. Putting something back into service requires considerable $$$ and demands solid a return on investment. Woulda-Coulda-Shoulda doesn't pass the basic smell test. If it is a rail trail under the NITU/CITU status, better hope the trail owner has its act together. Many have no clue on what they've signed on for.
Abandoned former C&NW right of way that this thread is referring to. Most of it is rurual and traverses farmland but there were online businesses along the way that shifted to trucks and as well plenty of future land where a sizeable new rail based business could locate. One wonders what marketing was done to assess the line for either recovery method?
http://www.abandonedrails.com/West_Bend_to_Fond_du_Lac
Read the comments left by railroaders below the linked route map above.
BaltACD Many railfans refuse to understand the economics of scale that are required to keep rail line viable and operating. Volume, Volume, Volume. The lines that are being abandoned don't handle a sufficient volume of traffic to at least cover the costs of the maintenance to keep the line operating - this isn't just short term downswing in traffic but a minimal level of traffic over a sustained period of time, with no prospects of ever obtaining a sufficient level of traffic to warrent continuing the line in operation.
Many railfans refuse to understand the economics of scale that are required to keep rail line viable and operating. Volume, Volume, Volume. The lines that are being abandoned don't handle a sufficient volume of traffic to at least cover the costs of the maintenance to keep the line operating - this isn't just short term downswing in traffic but a minimal level of traffic over a sustained period of time, with no prospects of ever obtaining a sufficient level of traffic to warrent continuing the line in operation.
Not necessarily buying into this argument. I agree railfans can be unrealistic at times but rail line abandonment in a LOT OF CASES has to due with lack of marketing or care by railroad management vs a real dearth of available business to keep the line open. Case in point, look at the Wisconsin and Southern which pasted together a bunch of abandoned or soon to be abandoned rail lines and used their inherited Milwaukee Road marketing finesse to bring significant traffic back to some of those lines. You have to wonder why the former Class one that owned the same line prior to sale or abandonment didn't really lift a finger or applied a business killing and large per car SURCHARGE to use the line in rail traffic routings.
I have mentioned CP in a lot of my pasts posts because I have seen CP abandon lines that could have been sold to another entity for money but instead were abandoned for no money. Likewise seen CP abandon rail lines that with some marketing attention could have been brought back from the abyss. CP doesn't at the moment seem to care about traffic in Wisconsin but rather sees it's line as just a through route in which to minimize all costs related to maintenance. So you have a situation with UP, W&S and BNSF picking off what should be CP traffic opportunities. Sad to watch but when you have a rail management distracted or focused on who knows what else......online business declines over time and eventually disappears.
Did CP offer to sell it's airline to W&S prior to abandonment as W&S already has trackage rights to reach it? What about the sharing of Muskego Yard with W&S instead of just letting all business evaporate that supports it? What about attempting to sell the Beer Line to W&S prior to abandonment since it also is reached via W&S traffic rights? Things that make you wonder.
Airline abandonment:
http://www.abandonedrails.com/Elm_Grove_Wisconsin
mudchicken MidlandMike dakotafred Don't forget, all, in New York state, as reported by Trains Newswire, some of these benign bikers are trying to shut down an operating tourist line in favor of a trail. There will always be abusers of a good thing. Nevertheless, without the rails-to-trails law, former lines would be fragmented and never have the possibility of re-railing. The New York Case has absolutely nothing to do with the rails-to-trails law. Different ballgame, different set of rules. Nothing to do with 16USC1247(d).
MidlandMike dakotafred Don't forget, all, in New York state, as reported by Trains Newswire, some of these benign bikers are trying to shut down an operating tourist line in favor of a trail. There will always be abusers of a good thing. Nevertheless, without the rails-to-trails law, former lines would be fragmented and never have the possibility of re-railing.
There will always be abusers of a good thing. Nevertheless, without the rails-to-trails law, former lines would be fragmented and never have the possibility of re-railing.
The New York Case has absolutely nothing to do with the rails-to-trails law. Different ballgame, different set of rules. Nothing to do with 16USC1247(d).
Tell us how different, do.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Old men squaking about returning to the world of their youth....
Mergers, the Interstate and Staggers ended the need for five lines into every podunk town, the mines are played out, and pulp got clobbered by the Internet. CN planted their flag on the pieces they wanted to get to Chicago, and the abandoned lines got turned over to that damned snowmobile lobby.
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