BANG! DING! OW!
schlimm Maybe more (passenger & commuter) trains need an auto-pilot as well as PTC?
Maybe more (passenger & commuter) trains need an auto-pilot as well as PTC?
Maybe it goes further than that , we still gotta share the road with this guy.
Dec. 30, 1939
tree68 Euclid Doesn’t “restricted speed” require stopping short of an obstruction?
Euclid Doesn’t “restricted speed” require stopping short of an obstruction?
zugmann Euclid n012944, Here is what I am wondering about. If that rear event recorder had been not working for say a week or more, is it likely that it was leading a train at some point during that time? For this train that crashed, would it be likely that they moved the working event recorder to the leading end of the train every time they changed directions? Not how event recorders work. It's not like there's an "event recorder working" gauge in a locomotive. I've had engines where the roadforemen tried to get a download and they couldn't. Files get corrupted, CF cards don't work, etc.
Euclid n012944, Here is what I am wondering about. If that rear event recorder had been not working for say a week or more, is it likely that it was leading a train at some point during that time? For this train that crashed, would it be likely that they moved the working event recorder to the leading end of the train every time they changed directions?
Not how event recorders work. It's not like there's an "event recorder working" gauge in a locomotive. I've had engines where the roadforemen tried to get a download and they couldn't. Files get corrupted, CF cards don't work, etc.
I would think that it would be considered very important for an event recorder to be working, considering its role to capture critical information that is only availble during an event. While it may not be necessary to have an "event recorder operating" indicator, having such an indicator does not seem like overkill.
Short of that, however, would be a requirement to check the event recorder for operation at the start of a work shift. I understand the point that they can fail any time for several different reasons, and that this one that failed was not legally required for the operation underway during the crash.
But it raises a few questions when they first tell us that they will get information from the two event recorders, and then tell us that one of them was not operating with the apparent explanation that it was too old. The question that this raises was asked at a NTSB news conference, and it seemed clear to me that they dodged the question because it was a hot potato.
Within half the distance to the obstruction. Using that parameter, a train could never actually reach the bumper.
In this particular situation, we also have to question the resolution of whatever is being used to determine the position of the train. If it's GPS, the resolution can sometimes be to tens of feet, not to mention this incident occurred inside the train shed (from what I've seen), which is going to affect the GPS signal.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
News articles seem to report nothing not said by Ms. D-Z at the briefings, which of course are on NTSB youtube channel. Most recent video is generally first in the second row, ‘uploads.’
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe5dWbxxvQqDAHmyMrEF7Kw
schlimmExperts have disputed that. The programming can enforce stops, not just speed limits.
Would that entail having everything signalled right up to the bumping block? I think that's the problem - some of these stations are so full of swithces and tracks it would be a hell of a job to signal everything. Or can you have a sea of restricting with a stop signal at the end?
I honestly don't know.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Euclidn012944, Here is what I am wondering about. If that rear event recorder had been not working for say a week or more, is it likely that it was leading a train at some point during that time? For this train that crashed, would it be likely that they moved the working event recorder to the leading end of the train every time they changed directions?
As I understand this, the only means available with PTC for controlling trains pulling up to the bumper post, as this one was doing; would be to enforce the concept of “restricted speed.” Why would this not result in stopping the train before it hit the bumper post? Doesn’t “restricted speed” require stopping short of an obstruction?
BaltACD schlimm CMStPnP Euclid So, the engineer says that he entered the station at 10 mph, but he does not remember the crash. The one black box recovered was not working during the trip because it was old. They can’t get to the other black box because it is too hard with all the wreckage, and there might be asbestos. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/n-j-train-crash-one-data-recorder-wasn-t-working-n658256 Sounds like Sleep Apnea and he passed out. Just like the Amtrak crash earlier. Maybe they should start testing Locomotive Engineers for Sleep Apnea. Better still, equip all commuter train lines with PTC. Metro-North did. NJT could have. They still can once they get rid of Christie. PTC enforces response to Signal Indications. The Signal Indication into a dead end station track would be 'Restricting' - proceed at restricted speed (with all the other requirements restricted speed entails). IF train was proceeding at 10 MPH as the engineer asserts, it was moving in accordance within the limits that PTC would allow. The fact that the train did not stop short of the track blockage (bumping block) indicates man failure that PTC would not prevent.
schlimm CMStPnP Euclid So, the engineer says that he entered the station at 10 mph, but he does not remember the crash. The one black box recovered was not working during the trip because it was old. They can’t get to the other black box because it is too hard with all the wreckage, and there might be asbestos. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/n-j-train-crash-one-data-recorder-wasn-t-working-n658256 Sounds like Sleep Apnea and he passed out. Just like the Amtrak crash earlier. Maybe they should start testing Locomotive Engineers for Sleep Apnea. Better still, equip all commuter train lines with PTC. Metro-North did. NJT could have. They still can once they get rid of Christie.
CMStPnP Euclid So, the engineer says that he entered the station at 10 mph, but he does not remember the crash. The one black box recovered was not working during the trip because it was old. They can’t get to the other black box because it is too hard with all the wreckage, and there might be asbestos. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/n-j-train-crash-one-data-recorder-wasn-t-working-n658256 Sounds like Sleep Apnea and he passed out. Just like the Amtrak crash earlier. Maybe they should start testing Locomotive Engineers for Sleep Apnea.
Euclid So, the engineer says that he entered the station at 10 mph, but he does not remember the crash. The one black box recovered was not working during the trip because it was old. They can’t get to the other black box because it is too hard with all the wreckage, and there might be asbestos. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/n-j-train-crash-one-data-recorder-wasn-t-working-n658256
So, the engineer says that he entered the station at 10 mph, but he does not remember the crash. The one black box recovered was not working during the trip because it was old. They can’t get to the other black box because it is too hard with all the wreckage, and there might be asbestos.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/n-j-train-crash-one-data-recorder-wasn-t-working-n658256
Sounds like Sleep Apnea and he passed out. Just like the Amtrak crash earlier. Maybe they should start testing Locomotive Engineers for Sleep Apnea.
Better still, equip all commuter train lines with PTC. Metro-North did. NJT could have. They still can once they get rid of Christie.
PTC enforces response to Signal Indications. The Signal Indication into a dead end station track would be 'Restricting' - proceed at restricted speed (with all the other requirements restricted speed entails). IF train was proceeding at 10 MPH as the engineer asserts, it was moving in accordance within the limits that PTC would allow. The fact that the train did not stop short of the track blockage (bumping block) indicates man failure that PTC would not prevent.
Experts have disputed that. The programming can enforce stops, not just speed limits.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
n012944,
Here is what I am wondering about. If that rear event recorder had been not working for say a week or more, is it likely that it was leading a train at some point during that time? For this train that crashed, would it be likely that they moved the working event recorder to the leading end of the train every time they changed directions?
I think that was the basic point of a question asked at the NTSB press conference. It was whether a failed event recorder on a train suggested a violation, assuming that it had been bad order for some significant period of time.
Euclid And if that is so, doesn’t that mean that a failed event recorder on the trailing locomotive going into the station was a violation?
And if that is so, doesn’t that mean that a failed event recorder on the trailing locomotive going into the station was a violation?
It wouldn't be a violation until the outbound actually left.
An "expensive model collector"
tree68 Niles - who cares about some stabbings?
Niles - who cares about some stabbings?
I think he was talking about the 2012 derailment, not the stabbings.
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RAB1306.pdf
They have clarified the rule on event recorders saying that the leading end of the train must have one that is working. This was in response to a question as to whether the one that was not working on the trailing end was required to have been working. The answer was left at “no” because only the lead end requires one to be working.
I am not familiar with this operation, but doesn’t either end of the train lead at various times? And if that is so, doesn’t that mean that a failed event recorder on the trailing locomotive going into the station was a violation?
Somehow, I get the feeling that when they finally get the debris cleared away and recover the second event recorder, that will not be working either.
7j43k...Chester, PA. <snip> Niles, MI...
Probably because they didn't get quite the major press coverage. A fair amount was heard about Chester in the trade press, but it still didn't get the general coverage that the incidents involving large numbers of people did. Niles - who cares about some stabbings? Everyday news... (I know, people do care about the stabbings, especially the victims, but in the 24 hour news cycle, it's pfft... Chester was "just" an industrial accident.)
We care about these incidents because we are interested in railroads. The general public, not so much. How much coverage have you seen about Chief Fahey?
Hoboken Terminal reopening is very much undecided.
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2016/09/when_will_hoboken_terminal_reopen_experts_say_that.html#incart_river_indexp
Euclid So, the NTSB responsibly addresses the public desire to know what happened while an accident is fresh in the peoples’ minds. They don’t withhold every detail until the last stone has been turned over. However, with this Hoboken crash, I sense a reversal of that NTSB policy about generously informing the public. I see indications that they have adopted precisely the attitude that they should not be expected to tell us anything until their work is finished.
So, the NTSB responsibly addresses the public desire to know what happened while an accident is fresh in the peoples’ minds. They don’t withhold every detail until the last stone has been turned over.
However, with this Hoboken crash, I sense a reversal of that NTSB policy about generously informing the public. I see indications that they have adopted precisely the attitude that they should not be expected to tell us anything until their work is finished.
NTSB has been incredibly unsharing about the crash at Chester, PA. In my opinion. There was information they had early on that they COULD have shared, but didn't.
Niles, MI was another one. They knew stuff within a few days, and didn't tell until the final report. In my opinion.
The one in Midland, Texas (veterans, parade, flatbed) was a bit different. There was, what, 4 daily news conferences before they left. THAT was pretty sharing. In my opinion.
Now, perhaps there were regrets because of the "over" sharing at Midland. Because the locals dearly wanted to blame the UP, and the more the NTSB talked, the worse it looked for the city and the police. And perhaps those two groups cause political unhappiness outwards.
In my opinion.
Ed
I have sometimes wondered why the NTSB tells us anything until they finish their investigation and release the final report. I would tend to expect that as a natural consequence of the gravity of their official process taking precedence.
But, traditionally, that has not been the way they have handled it. Instead, they move fast and tell us what they find as they go. I think the reason is that they realize that the public has an interest in the safety in the public sector, and they are naturally anxious for explanations of a big accident. If an investigative agency came off as defensive, lawyerly, and tight lipped, it would antagonize the public; and a public agency needs public support.
RME the system we use and have used is at Zero pressure the valve closes in less than 1/2 of a second and that is the industry standard on the emergency shutoff valves. They are a pump up to open and the total system volume of fluid in the trailer is less than 2 cups of fluid. The PSI required to open the valve is less than 200 PSI and if the pressure is removed it drops the valve to closed. This system is used by all Haz Mat OTR tanker trailers and has been for 40 years. The emergency releases are a breakable bolt looking device on every corner of the trailer and if there is an issue anywhere all you have to do is grab twist and snap. That releases the pressure and closes the valve. We have hauled acid for 30+ years and never had an issue like this until this week. In fact the only other issue we have ever had was where the valve refused to open on the trailer when pumped up for opening 20+ years ago. That we traced to a cracked emergancy release bolt.
I've been following this on www.NorthJersey.com and www.NJ.com. The event recorder's been recovered from the locomotive, but not the event recorder from the cab car, it's still too dangerous to go in there.
The engineer's 48 years old. He might have had a health issue but we don't know yet. From the other NJT stories I'm suspecting there may have been a mechanical failure of some kind but that's just speculation on my part.
For a good photo tour and history of the NJT Lackawanna Terminal in Hoboken go to www.subwaynut.com and follow the New Jersey Transit Rail headings. It's pretty interesting.
Excerpt from Hoboken Terminal's 100th anniversary newsletter, February 2007
http://www.njtransit.com/pdf/nn_EnRouteSpclEdtn.pdf
In a small, corner office above the concourse of Hoboken Terminal, NJ TRANSIT staff works behind the darkened glass to coordinate the movement of customers and trains in and out of Hoboken Terminal.
Overlooking Tracks 1-17, the only hint that they are there comes from the glow of the computer monitors that link them to the core of their mission, which is to make sure our customers move through the terminal safely and on time. Customers exiting a train or pursuing their next destination might glance upward and wonder what actually goes on in the small, bustling workspace affectionately called the “dugout.”
“We closely monitor every train that comes and goes, using the Train Management and Control (TMAC) system,” said Chief Trainmaster, Hoboken Rita Whitley. “We can see the whole railroad just as a train dispatcher does.” NJ TRANSIT uses TMAC to track and control all of the railmovements on its system.
The dugout houses the chief trainmaster, senior trainmaster and others who coordinate all train and crew movements into and out of Hoboken Terminal. The room is open about 20 hours a day, coordinated with the rail schedules of the Hoboken Division. The Hoboken Division includes all trains on the Morris & Essex, Main/Bergen County, Pascack Valley, Montclair-Boonton and Port Jervis lines, and some trains on the North Jersey Coast and Raritan Valley lines.
“We are in charge if there is any kind of problem with the trains, be it mechanical, crew or passenger,” Rita said. “We have to get that train moving and make sure all the customers get on their way.”
The room originally was positioned above the newspaper stand, overlooking the tracks. After the recent renovation of the terminal’s waiting area, the dugout can now be found in the corner of the main building, across from the entrance to NY Waterway...
seppburgh2I have worked over 35 years in IT, from key-coder to now Project Manager. The rule used to determine risk and mitigation plans is simple, "if an error is possible, someone will find the trigger."
And it only took 107 years to find it.
BaltACD MidlandMike TV news reports showed a number of people saying they would not be riding the trains in the foreseeable future. The future will end Monday when the alternative takes twice as long, gives multiple life threatening thrills each way and if they want to park a vehicle in New York, can the find a Mortgage to finance the parking spot.
MidlandMike TV news reports showed a number of people saying they would not be riding the trains in the foreseeable future.
TV news reports showed a number of people saying they would not be riding the trains in the foreseeable future.
The future will end Monday when the alternative takes twice as long, gives multiple life threatening thrills each way and if they want to park a vehicle in New York, can the find a Mortgage to finance the parking spot.
It's been a while since I lived in the NY area, but there are other alternatives such as carpool, rideshare, buses, and shuttle vans. NJT rail would be ill advised to think that people did not have options.
I have worked over 35 years in IT, from key-coder to now Project Manager. The rule used to determine risk and mitigation plans is simple, "if an error is possible, someone will find the trigger."
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