EuclidLook at railroad rules. They are black and white.
Heh. That's a good one. Tell me another.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Euclid Heh. That's a good one. Tell me another.
Euclid
Never had to deal with the application of rules to the real world, has he?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Norm48327 Euclid Big surprise Norm. You know, Bucky, If I were the only one saying that you won't listen to reasoning other than your own I might concede I was picking on you. I'm NOT alone. Therefore it seems logical the fault lies with someone who can never admit he is wrong and twists things around seeking the answer he wants. Have you ever considered the other half of the world may have a valid point?
Euclid Big surprise Norm.
Big surprise Norm.
You know, Bucky, If I were the only one saying that you won't listen to reasoning other than your own I might concede I was picking on you. I'm NOT alone. Therefore it seems logical the fault lies with someone who can never admit he is wrong and twists things around seeking the answer he wants.
Have you ever considered the other half of the world may have a valid point?
I seriously doubt that he is capable of that degree of insight or awareness. His inability to understand simple, declarative sentences makes it obvious that a dialogue is nearly impossible. I suggest the rest of us just leave him to his internal arguments.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
As a bystander, my observation is that another horse has been flayed.
Johnny
BaltACD zugmann Euclid Heh. That's a good one. Tell me another. Never had to deal with the application of rules to the real world, has he?
Rules seem black and white until people become involved, and then the interpretation begins. Different people will give you different interpretations of the same rule, making this a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't world for us on the ground.
And boy was this thread worth the 45 minutes it took to read! Amazing what happens when I disappear for a week.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Deggesty As a bystander, my observation is that another horse has been flayed.
A somewhat lifeless one, at that.
Horse's lives matter.
Duckin' and runnin'.
Norm
schlimmI seriously doubt that he is capable of that degree of insight or awareness. His inability to understand simple, declarative sentences makes it obvious that a dialogue is nearly impossible. I suggest the rest of us just leave him to his internal arguments.
If I may take the liberty to add to that, a line from a Simon and Garfunkle song sums it up well. "The man hears what he wants to hear and he disregards the rest."
ChuckCobleigh Deggesty As a bystander, my observation is that another horse has been flayed. A somewhat lifeless one, at that.
Norm48327If I may take the liberty to add to that, a line from a Simon and Garfunkel song sums it up well.
If I may take the liberty to add to that, a line from a different song sums it up better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_47KVJV8DU
tree68 If you feel we're not giving you an answer to your question, then perhaps you are not asking the right question!
If you feel we're not giving you an answer to your question, then perhaps you are not asking the right question!
Okay, then what is the right question?
Euclid tree68 If you feel we're not giving you an answer to your question, then perhaps you are not asking the right question! Okay, then what is the right question?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingAnything you want it to be. Then provide your own anwser and I presume you'll be happy with the results.
And be willing to accept the answer you get from someone who works in the area of concern.
This is circuitous. Question. Wrong question. What's right question? Whatever you want. Just listen to response. I expect a question next....
selector This is circuitous. Question. Wrong question. What's right question? Whatever you want. Just listen to response. I expect a question next....
EuclidOkay, then what is the right question?
Go back and read my entire post.
You are insisting on black and white where it does not exist. If you go back and ask your original question, with information on all of the qualifying factors I listed (and more, actually) and you might get something resembling a firm answer.
Might. I'm sure that even with all the information I listed, no two crewmembers will provide exactly the same answer.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68I'm sure that even with all the information I listed, no two crewmembers will provide exactly the same answer.
Or one that fits in with Bucky's preconceived notions.
Posted by tree68 on Saturday, September 17, 2016 12:56 PM
Your question regarding reaction to an obstruction in a crossing (or elsewhere) needs to include not only the obstruction in the crossing, but the nature of the obstruction, distance to the crossing, visibility of the crossing, upgrade or downgrade, tangent or curve, wet rail or dry, time of year, time of day, speed of the train, makeup of the train (including type of cargo and the placement of loads and empties), traffic conditions at the crossing (ie, T intersections, parallel roads), and the nature of the neighborhood/area.
These are all factors that have an effect on the decision a crew will make when faced with a situation. And I'm sure others can add more.
Change any one of those factors and I'm sure the answers you get will also change.
Hence the "shades of gray."
tree68 Euclid Okay, then what is the right question? Go back and read my entire post. You are insisting on black and white where it does not exist. If you go back and ask your original question, with information on all of the qualifying factors I listed (and more, actually) and you might get something resembling a firm answer. Might. I'm sure that even with all the information I listed, no two crewmembers will provide exactly the same answer.
Euclid Okay, then what is the right question?
Okay. I had read your entire post. Since you said I might be asking the wrong question, I thought you might know what the right question is.
Overall, it sounds like you are saying there can be no right question unless it weaves through all of the countless variables and establishes a conditional relationship with each one. And then the answer would have to calculate the outcome of all those conditions. I suspect that nobody would ever agree on the answer. They probably would not even agree on the question.
So, there can be no question, if those are the terms. And if there can’t be a question, there can’t be an answer.
EuclidOverall, it sounds like you are saying there can be no right question unless it weaves through all of the countless variables and establishes a conditional relationship with each one. And then the answer would have to calculate the outcome of all those conditions. I suspect that nobody would ever agree on the answer. They probably would not even agree on the question.
Bingo! Give the man a cigar! He finally figured out what we've been trying to tell him all along!
Nice one Larry. But we await his response.
Electroliner 1935But we await his response.
tree68 Euclid Overall, it sounds like you are saying there can be no right question unless it weaves through all of the countless variables and establishes a conditional relationship with each one. And then the answer would have to calculate the outcome of all those conditions. I suspect that nobody would ever agree on the answer. They probably would not even agree on the question. Bingo! Give the man a cigar! He finally figured out what we've been trying to tell him all along!
Euclid Overall, it sounds like you are saying there can be no right question unless it weaves through all of the countless variables and establishes a conditional relationship with each one. And then the answer would have to calculate the outcome of all those conditions. I suspect that nobody would ever agree on the answer. They probably would not even agree on the question.
You have not been saying the same thing all along. Earlier, you answered Paul North’s hypothetical question about train operation based on only nine variable factors. I can think of at least twelve more variables that Paul either did not include or could be stated more explicitly. Since then, you have also introduced several new variables that need to be accounted for, yet you ignored them when you described your response to Paul North’s scenario. How could you come up with that specific answer so easily when so few variables were accounted for? Your answer seemed pretty black and white back then.
EuclidYou have not been saying the same thing all along. Earlier, you answered Paul North’s hypothetical question about train operation based on only nine variable factors. I can think of at least twelve more variables that Paul either did not include or could be stated more explicitly. Since then, you have also introduced several new variables that need to be accounted for, yet you ignored them when you described your response to Paul North’s scenario. How could you come up with that specific answer so easily when so few variables were accounted for? Your answer seemed pretty black and white back then.
The only thing black and white about any of our answers has been that there is no black and white. The fact that other variables have been introduced should be an indication that there are a lot of variables to consider - as you note yourself. So we're up to over 20 factors that affect the decision a crew has to make. I'm sure if we tried, we could come up with more.
So, craft your question about how an engineer would react including those 20+ variables and we'll see what we can do for you.
I expect the subject of this question to be fully addressed with an automatic system working with PTC. Sensors will monitor the approach of vehicles at grade crossings and make the appropriate train brake response as needed. The program will instantly account for the thousands of variables.
When this is implemented, we will finally know whether the variable of train consist and danger of the cargo will be a factor in the automatic decision. Sarah Feinberg says the FRA is looking at everything that can be done to reduce the grade crossing hazard in this country. She seems particularly interested in improving train braking, and has spoken frequently about the derails.
Bucky's theme song.
tree68So, craft your question about how an engineer would react including those 20+ variables and we'll see what we can do for you.
Yeah, I'll maybe start a new thread about it. It's kind of buried and off topic for this thread.
tree68The fact that other variables have been introduced should be an indication that there are a lot of variables to consider - as you note yourself. So we're up to over 20 factors that affect the decision a crew has to make. I'm sure if we tried, we could come up with more. So, craft your question about how an engineer would react including those 20+ variables and we'll see what we can do for you.
Yeah, 20+ variables. Let's see the list, Euclid.
20+ variables? Make that 2,000+ variables at a conservative estimate. For example, you should take into consideration the make-up of the train, with the length and weight of each freight car, its commodity and its placement. Is there a DPU, and where is it located in the train, perhaps a second DPU in another location? Now consider the track, such things as profile, curve geometry, cross level, gauge, and relate that to the position of each car. I'm sure the hogheads on this forum can add a multitude more variables relating to how the train they are running is actually behaving.
This just scratches the surface of the variables that will need to be defined. And even if all variables are identified the answer will, at best, lie in a narrower band of gray between black and white.
EuclidYeah, I'll maybe start a new thread about it. It's kind of buried and off topic for this thread.
A new thread won't change the answers much, if at all. As CX500 notes, providing all of the possible factors that might have an effect simply narrows the area of gray.
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