Euclid- The photo's showing the appliance in question is further down the thread.
I am helping a writer friend on a mystery novel he is working on. It takes place in 1945 and the plot has the characters riding from Philadelphia to Buffalo on the Lehigh Valley's Maple Leaf. I know that LV had some streamlined Pacifics pulling the John Wilkes, did they use streamlined Pacifics on the Maple Leaf as well? Also I know the Philadelphia section ran over the Reading to Bethlehem. Was this run as a Reading train or did the LV have trackage rights over the Reading? Where were crew change points on the LV main line? I appreciate any help.
Charlie
Miningman If you go to the Steam and Preservation and scroll down to "Looking for Lehigh Valley steam info" thread, the last 3 or so postings, there is a discussion about an appliance near the stack on some Lehigh Valley steam locomotives. No one has been able to identify what it is. Any thoughts?
Can you post a link to that thread? I recall seeing a thread about Lehigh Valley RR locomotives, but can't find it there now.
NDG- yes it's a mystery that's for sure. Maybe its an air raid siren!
Turbogenerator? Some kind of lubricator? Cinder device? Some LV guy knows.
Thank You.
NDG- Very good descriptions and accounts of working on and along the boiler. These are things that many of us do not know. With all the hazards you describe it would seem you took a tumble on more than one occasion.
How on earth does an acorn nut get atop an actuating cylinder? Chipmunks? I guess so!
Things have sure changed since those times. No hard hats, gloves "sometimes", no high visibility vests, no lanyards, D-Rings, and everyone and their dog smoked anywhere and everywhere. Yet we survived, a lot of us anyway. Self preservation is a good motivating factor.
I spent decades working underground in several hard rock mines. There has been tremendous advancements in safety equipment and procedures to the point where fatalities are pretty rare, at least in North America. If you were a haywire kind of guy back in the day...well not so good likely.
You have very good knowledge of steam locomotives. Wondering if you could shed some light on a question. If you go to the Steam and Preservation and scroll down to "Looking for Lehigh Valley steam info" thread, the last 3 or so postings, there is a discussion about an appliance near the stack on some Lehigh Valley steam locomotives. No one has been able to identify what it is. Any thoughts?
Regarding preservation of locomotives - I'm sure at least a few folks were of the opinion that the sooner the steamers were gone, the better, because no one would care about them in the future.
Clearly we do, but in all too many cases it's too late...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
RME- Yes that is it without a doubt what happened. I recall at one time you alluded to a possible paper trail encouraging this very action.
Oh well, it's their company and their locomotives and their money and they could do as they wish. It still puts our accomplished mechanical engineer(s) in a hopeless situation. From riches to rags.
Understood that Northumberland was not going to happen, period. It would have been possible to just hide one in such a vast system and cook the books regarding its fate. It would require a small clandestine cabal of dedicated folks but it would still run into physical deterioration, Stewart Sauders and eventually Penn Central. On the other hand, the scrap value was well within the ability of a wealthier and willing patron but none materialized.
Also, without the Kaiser's nutty pretentions the other power mad maniac would have probably remained a failed artist of no reknown. Wilhelms actions set the stage for WWII. It's arguable but you can draw a line there.
My "story" was more of a broad based generalization, certainly not straight line connections to events. I know you have talked about the unnecessary early hasty demise of the Lackawanna 4-8-4's. Also the NYC Niagara's were allowed to fail, one at a time. The stories about "we thought the other roundhouse/division were ordered to save one" keep popping up in B&O, CPR, and NYC and others, almost to the point of urban legend status. Hence no Hudson and other famous steamers. Suppose we were lucky to have a Mohawk.
Reading through the captioned pictorial histories of all the New England roads, provided through a link from NDG on the String Lining thread, it seems that New England went virtually overnight to zip steam. Must have been quite the shock to the good citizens.
As we all age and move down the track ourselves we cannot help but think of the parallels between our own accomplishments and lives with the fate of steam, or entire mainlines. May we all endure yet.
Miningman <snipped> ... after years of toil, effort and sacrifice you finally get a chance to advance your dream of a "duplex drive", a next generation of steam power ... Decisions are made, the prototypes will go into production. Millions and millions of real dollars are invested ... Then half a world away, in a culture totally foreign to our way of life, in a system that is dark and evil, as far removed in every way from Broadway and Philadelphia as you can get, some sawed off mentally deranged power mad maniac creates a situation that is responsible for accelerating the scrapping of an entire much loved and iconic symbol of a society ...
Really the whole mission for the Q2s was brought about by the previous power-mad maniac: the only justification for high-speed low-augment power that could pull 150-car consists at 65mph or better ... on a 50-mph-freight railroad ... was wartime service. In the postwar period the modified (70" driver diameter) 2-10-4s could do most anything required 'well enough' ... and remember that with 'two of everything' maintenance costs increased more than usual.
The T1 was the perfect answer for high-speed steam passenger power, designed in an era when diesel-electrics were still expensive niche power mostly for lightweight motor trains. The 'catch' was that the development of effective general passenger power in the E-unit series was reaching a 'sweet spot' just at the time the bugs were being worked out of the T1s, with no guarantee that all the bugs were even fully solvable at the time. And within just a couple years more, the overall cost to support big steam of any kind on PRR was "upside down" and now the double-Atlantic-under-one-boiler was rapidly running out of any service that could justify its advantages. It didn't help that they had sophisticated systems with special parts and maintenance procedures, or needed good fuel, lubricant, and chemicals to perform at all well.
The 'conspiracy theory' about the T1 retirement is that the equipment trusts on the large production runs of T1s had a very long time to run, and represented a substantial impediment to dieselization (and a threat to bottom-line profitability) that might not even have been outweighed had the locomotives performed perfectly. It wasn't likely that PRR would pay off the trusts prematurely, get the amounts reduced, or have much chance of getting extended financing on reasonable terms were it to default in any way. However ... if the engines were to be demonstrated failures as far as the bankers were concerned, and perhaps a certain amount of nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean action to establish the 'dog' status across the board were undertaken to facilitate this, there would be far more likelihood to bow to the fact of a "bad investment".
Just don't expect one to wind up in Northumberland. If you kept it for sentimental reasons, you'd have to expect to pay for it, right up through the term of the equipment trust...
RME and all- ..." Part of it, of course, is that the Korean War created a huge market for scrap steel."....Also references to the T1's and Q2's going to the scrap heap asap as the equipment trusts ran out.
So...one goes on to a higher education, not so easy back in the day, to pursue their dream and natural abilities of mechanical engineering ....then apprentices under the legendary names at Baldwin and learns much....after years of toil, effort and sacrifice you finally get a chance to advance your dream of a "duplex drive", a next generation of steam power. It is your time to shine and make your name. A famous industrial designer is brought in to make it look real good, a radical departure that points unmistakably to tomorrow. Many, many meetings. Decisions are made, the prototypes will go into production. Millions and millions of real dollars are invested. A highly skilled and incredibly dedicated devoted workforce assembles your vision. The future has arrived. The public is in awe. Youth is inspired beyond words.
Then half a world away, in a culture totally foreign to our way of life, in a system that is dark and evil, as far removed in every way from Broadway and Philadelphia as you can get, some sawed off mentally deranged power mad maniac creates a situation that is responsible for accelerating the scrapping of an entire much loved and iconic symbol of a society, and that young mechanical engineer that designed the future has to witness all that effort, education, time, dreams, knowledge get melted down in some blast furnace. Poof, gone, and fast.
Not since headstrong and hyperactive German emperor Wilhelm II, known as the Kaiser, challenged the supremacy of the British Navy in a mad attempt to upstage his uncle and cousin, Britian's Edward VII and George V ( Wilhelm's mother was Queen Victoria's daughter), thereby, ultimately in the end game, resulting in WWI, and thereby also WWII, has such a sad and pathetic outcome resulted from such unforeseen events and it's consequences.
RME Miningman Part of it, of course, is that the Korean War created a huge market for scrap steel. That is also the 'technical' reason why the German motor locomotive 19 1001 was scrapped (when it couldn't be sent back to the then-DB cost-effectively) instead of being preserved as the very interesting machine it was. Meanwhile, any comparatively recent steam still 'being paid for' might need to be gotten off the property as quickly as possible, particularly when (like the T1s and Q2s) the dominant reason for keeping them running had evaporated. Whenever you see industrial demand (or opportunity) for new iron-ore traffic being exploited, you can expect the demand for metallurgical scrap to be similarly high. Conversely, in depressed economic years there is lower payoff on largely-depreciated assets
Miningman
Part of it, of course, is that the Korean War created a huge market for scrap steel. That is also the 'technical' reason why the German motor locomotive 19 1001 was scrapped (when it couldn't be sent back to the then-DB cost-effectively) instead of being preserved as the very interesting machine it was. Meanwhile, any comparatively recent steam still 'being paid for' might need to be gotten off the property as quickly as possible, particularly when (like the T1s and Q2s) the dominant reason for keeping them running had evaporated.
Whenever you see industrial demand (or opportunity) for new iron-ore traffic being exploited, you can expect the demand for metallurgical scrap to be similarly high. Conversely, in depressed economic years there is lower payoff on largely-depreciated assets
There were also numbers of steam engines, that while they had been retired from service remained on the locomotive rosters for several years until the Equipment Trusts used for their purchase timed out and expired.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
MiningmanDoes anyone have any figures are how many steam locomotives were scrapped each year from say 1948 until 1956. The numbers would be huge.
Chicago City Railway Company was established in 1859 was one of the four underlying companies whose lines were operated by Chicago Surface Lines from 1913 to 1947, when CTA took over operation of Chicago Surface Lines and the Chicago Rapid Transit Co. Chicago Motor Coach operations were absorbed by CTA in 1953.
A turnaround loop probably existed at 63rd and State as a provision for emergency and scheduled short turns. CSL had turnaround loops throughout its system for just those reasons.
RME- Well of course you are, reluctantly, correct regarding the quick demise of the steam locomotives, the facilities and the specific employment that went along with all of that. The reasons for the disappearance are overwhelming.
The Diesel really didn't save the railroads in the East. I doubt if the end would have been any quicker without them..maybe it extended the railroads life and bottom line somewhat. Passenger was gone in any case regardless of motive power.
Does anyone have any figures are how many steam locomotives were scrapped each year from say 1948 until 1956. The numbers would be huge. I'm thinking 52-53 was not a good time for steam. New England disappeared steam entirely almost overnight.
The larger issue was the overall loss in employment and rail itself and to see that in todays terms. What I mean by that is why can't we have both in place...the main line huge systems of today serving transportation hubs/nodes AND a renewed vibrant local system everywhere serving industry and regions. They could cooperate and compete creating their own transportation nodes that could feed into the system or into larger regional markets. Perhaps the industry is no longer there.
With a renewed industry those scenes of 1948 would could reappear, of course sans steam, but lots of activity and employment nontheless. Big mountain to climb with everything from taxes and regulations to environmental and employment issues.
The thing is...it was all there in place and should not have been lost in the first place. Can it be restored?
NDG- terrific and very sad story that I vaguely recall reading about. Do we know if those rails were left behind as a memorial/reminder.
Wow. Today it looks very different. Thanks for this tidbit and all the other stories!
NDGAs mentioned on another thread today, NONE of this means JACK, and the cows may well be on their way over the next ridge.
The thread in question is over on Classic Trains, reflecting what happened to the Cincinnati facilities -- it's now a strip mall.
ALL the need for complex flue blowing, smoke and ash abatement, cinder removal, water and steam connections ... disappeared (at least at that location) with the advent of dieselization. Need to pay property tax and so forth on all that land with its 'improvements' (including those now no longer needed) wouldn't be far behind ... nor would any use of the land that others would find lucrative. Hence: sale and redevelopment.
This isn't really an 'employment' issue (although increasing costs, including the opportunity cost involved in burgeoning alternative careers for railroad employees, in the latter half of the Forties was an important part of the quick decline of steam in the East). It's more akin to where all the multiple-track railroads went in the absence of frequent higher-speed passenger movements and the increasing presence of signaling improvements like CTC.
More than that: if you want a more modern example, look at Orangeville enginehouse, which within what I think of as completely modern memory went from a facility even more full of action than Enola to ... nothing. Oh, wait, the Enola engine facility has gone the same way!
The first incident seems to have had 'speeding' attributed to it, as the linked paper article indicates that the 1956 boat was found with a log through it's hull.
2 Churches and a Funeral Home...hmmmm...I always take things like that as signposts so I would change my route pronto.
NDGCould that be a water feed pipe below the larger pipe btwn the two elbows? to introduce water only in the last few feet to the leftward end??
I don't see any water pipe at all, or indeed any 'fixed' swivel arrangement locating the pipe (only a sort of rigged cable arrangement at the hanging point, and a clevis for the pull rope up at the 'steep' end). On the other hand, we KNOW there's plenty of water under pressure ... there is a water crane on the far side.
I think you are right about the 'bidirectional' nature of the servicing. Could this be some kind of "ash abatement" system for locomotives on blower? Because I notice that the tender is full, absolutely full, of dirty slackish-looking coal -- you almost couldn't get one more lump in there. And there still appears to be fine sand around the dome filler and a couple of places 'down below' where it trickled (but would have blown off with even a little running?) That engine can't be going back in the roundhouse, or even standing for any length of time, with those details. The little C16 that's about to go to work has a similarly full tender, but the engine riding the table in the background has steam visible up top but very little if indeed any coal showing.
If the water mud mix was from the smokestack, it would eventually coat the inside of the big pipe and it would weigh TONS, and there would be drippage onto top of smokebox behind number boards which would run down, and drip onto motion or crossheads below???
Thing is, if this is happening to the engine post-coaling (and perhaps post-watering, too ... no activity around the water column) there can't be a great deal of accumulation there, which leads me to wonder exactly what would be involved with 'that amount' of water blowing up into the pipe with none of it running back down over the smokebox where we'd surely see it. To say nothing of
Water would pool in smokebox and make a real mess w/ cinders and netting, and, eventually run back thru tubes to firebox end = a corrosive damp goop. Acidic corrosion against front tube sheet at bottom would weaken same, and bottom of smoke box on saddle and through out superheater colony.
If anything were being done with 'cinders and ashes' that also involved water flow (or even backflow of condensation) I'd expect some visible sign that the smokebox door or front had been opened; there isn't anything like that, or even a sign the door was recently cleaned (look at the soot pattern on the top) -- on the other hand, the door is measurably cleaner than the whole bottom of the smokebox front.
My opinion is that any time water is being pushed through for cleaning, the smokebox temperature would be kept well above the dew point for sulfuric acid/sulfur oxides; to do this effectively with the front tube sheet might involve pressure on the boiler sufficient to keep the boiler water above that temperature (I am too lazy to work out how many psi this is, although I ought to remember it.) Most of the other corrosion points that don't involve wet ash or corrosive solutions would be helped by the gas path drying out quickly with this happening. And that door would be open if any wet stuff in the bottom of the smokebox were even likely...
If engine under steam, I am surprised there is no steam leakage w articulation, steam joints, relief valves and cylinder cocks, nor pools of water beneath re condensate.
This bothered me, too. Especially since dropping the fire in that ashpit with a full tender makes so little sense to me. Perhaps they have a direct-steam system of some kind installed
The pressure to move debris into hood tube would have to come from inside locomotive ... I assumed workers were in firebox helping debris along inside tubes and from around Superheaters with pressure wands steel rods and scrapers on sheets, the air quality improved by draft, and fire dumped or it would start to burn harder under draft.
If in fact the locomotive is getting blown out. With everything you say being likely, I have to wonder if 'more' or something different is involved.
Maybe we are reading too much into this? and it was done every arrival as ashes dumped as they exploded in water below??, and no cleaning is being done inside by workers at all. Should be steam from below ash pan??
Precisely. On the other hand, I'd be willing to bet that there isn't a lot of 'water' in that ashpit, as the absolute minimum of quenching is wanted with a skip-cart system going into a gondola of doubtless corrosion-prone condition. The question remains why an engine with a full tender would be receiving flue cleanouts (and probably with a Mallet-length boiler it would need the same hose at the back end that NYC engines did when the firebox was too short to contain the full rigid length of lance or rod needed to reach past the front tubeplate...)
Any C&O guys here with an interest in postwar Cincy facilities?
NDGHere is large photo of above scene. http://www.jjakucyk.com/transit/coi/large-44.html
More in this picture that may deserve notice.
Note the rails for the skip car from the ashpit, and the very different contents of the 'second' hopper car (clinkers and such). The 'rear' pipe arrangement doesn't have an ashpit, which would indicate that the pipe blowing arrangement was more common for standing locomotives than cleaning the fire was.
I clearly see water emerging from the end of the stack pipe, more of it following the 'outside radius', which tells me there either is steam and not just compressed air at work here, or that water (perhaps hot water?) being used to clean flues/tubes is being ejected through the front end at considerable velocity. I don't see any way dry ash/soot would have this appearance even in a time exposure.
Note the 'traveler' arrangement that allows the pipe to be winched fore-and-aft on its beam, similar to barn-door rollers, to make the alignment with the stack easier (without damaging those number boards). Presumably it is suspended close to its balance point so it can be pulled up with what appears to be a rudimentary rope arrangement but stay down over the stack under whatever pressure is being developed -- but that pressure can't be too much, could it, without some much more positive location or even tie-down at the locomotive, which I don't see... I also note (with a perhaps-unjustified chuckle) the dents on both pipe flares corresponding to the left-side number boards, which seem to tell me the flare is made of light-gauge sheet metal ... or there can be a substantial bang when someone isn't paying full attention while lining the pipe up.
Note the provision of strong lights at both ends of the beam, telling us that this blowing was often performed at night.
NDGBTW. There was a place named Tie/Wellington? on GNRy where a snow slide pushed several trains and a Rotary down the bank.
Tye. Indeed odd that it has the same name as the wreck you mentioned; someone will know more about the name. At the portal of the old Cascade Tunnel; the accident seems to have been a few miles from that point:
http://www.historylink.org/File/10713
Thank You..
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.