String Lining.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, September 22, 2019 5:23 AM

tree68
Natural gas will dissipate, given the chance.  It could still collect inside a well-sealed building.  While the NG will dissipate, the mercaptan (the odorant) won't - it's been known to fall out of the dissapating NG, causing people to think there is an explosion hazard when there isn't.  Better safe than sorry, though.

The problem for natural gas, though, is that above the rich limit the mixture can be ignited at an external point, and burn back into the rich mass with turbulent 'carburetion' and more-than-sufficient flame holding until the limit is reached, at which point the whole goes as a critical-mixture explosion.  This is greatly complicated if the propagation is compressed within a relatively hard-walled volume since shock waves can form and the pressure excursion accelerated the rate of burning, possibly to the point it becomes a detonation (as exploited for example in PDW engines).

You can get the same effects in the heavier fuel gases but it is less likely the 'pond' will fill the volume and therefore proceed to detonation.  (A major danger of LPG is a BLEVE-style acceleration of combustion, but this is massively different from either a 'puff' or an enclosed critical-mixture explosion)

There is more heat content when burning the 'heavier' hydrocarbons and I would expect this to have an influence on explosion severity, although I don't have direct experience in comparing the different 'results'.

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Sunday, September 22, 2019 1:05 AM

BaltACD
Your eye brows survived?  Normally they are the first thing go under such conditions.

Yep, eye brows survived but the hair on my arms did not. I felt dumb and lucky. Hopefully, it was as we used to say in the scouts, "A guided learning experience." 

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, September 21, 2019 10:04 PM

Electroliner 1935
I'm right behind you Larry. In fact I'm trying to run faster than I can. I was once trying to relight my gas water heater and did not wait long enough for the unburned pilot light gas to clear (I think I held the button down too long and let too much accumulate) and it puffed knocking me on my butt but fortunately the amount was not enough to damage me nor anything else. As the commercial used to say, "Gas does the big jobs better" 

Your eye brows survived?  Normally they are the first thing go under such conditions.

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Saturday, September 21, 2019 8:35 PM

I'm right behind you Larry. In fact I'm trying to run faster than I can. I was once trying to relight my gas water heater and did not wait long enough for the unburned pilot light gas to clear (I think I held the button down too long and let too much accumulate) and it puffed knocking me on my butt but fortunately the amount was not enough to damage me nor anything else. As the commercial used to say, "Gas does the big jobs better" 

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, September 21, 2019 7:36 PM

Electroliner 1935
Please remind me, which gas is heavier than air and which is lighter. My recollection is that Propane and Butane are heavier and will pool in the lower levels while natural (methane) is lighter and will diffuse into a room. All are explosive with air and ignition.

You have the right properties.

A problem with propane/LPG is that it will settle into low areas.  Collecting in a basement is pretty obvious.  Doing so outside may not seem as obvious, but it can happen if winds are light  or non-existant.  This could to lead to ignition from a source that hadn't been considered.

Natural gas will dissapate, given the chance.  It could still collect inside a well-sealed building.  While the NG will dissapate, the mercaptan (the odorant) won't - it's been known to fall out of the dissapating NG, causing people to think there is an explosion hazard when there isn't.  Better safe than sorry, though.

The concentration range where NG is explosive is between 5% and 15%.  Outside those concentrations the mix will be either too lean or too rich.  LPG is betwen 2.1 and 9.5%.

So, will LPG explode if the concentration is 10%?  I'm not hanging around to find out...

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Saturday, September 21, 2019 3:09 PM

tree68
Farmington, Maine.  

 

Larry, thanks. I had not heard of this. First responders face tough situations and too often pay dearly for their profession. We can't thank then enough for their service.

Please remind me, which gas is heavier than air and which is lighter. My recollection is that Propane and Butane are heavier and will pool in the lower levels while natural (methane) is lighter and will diffuse into a room. All are explosive with air and ignition.

 

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Saturday, September 21, 2019 2:34 PM

Lithonia Operator
I live in Maine, and that’s all people are talking about. A horrible tragedy. That building was reduced to powder in a split second. Shocking.

   I was puzzled by Larry's response, but I searched it after your response, and WOW, I'm surprised I don't remember hearing about it.

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Friday, September 20, 2019 8:51 PM

I live in Maine, and that’s all people are talking about. A horrible tragedy. That building was reduced to powder in a split second. Shocking.

We have propane on our boat. We are very careful. Even though we have a solenoid cutoff with a switch in the galley, we still also go aft and close the valve on the tank after every single use.

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 7:18 AM

Paul of Covington

 

 
Overmod
One very significant point in favor of alcohol heaters and lamps on boats is exhaust in confined spaces. I cannot use a typical oil lamp indoors due to the fume smell, let alone any issue with cumulative monoxide poisoning. I am also not a fan of pressure burners for hydrocarbons, in part due to consequences of sudden leaks with the system under pressure when there is any chance of an ignition source nearby.

 

   I guess it's a personal thing.   I found the sickening, almost sweet smell of alcohol more objectionable than that of kerosene.   But I agree with you about pressure burners.

Farmington, Maine.  

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 7:02 AM

Around here, the issue of improperly vented kerosene heaters rears its ugly head every winter.  There are usually several cases of families being asphyxiated by carbon monoxide where multiple space heaters are used to heat the house.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Paul of Covington on Monday, September 16, 2019 6:52 PM

Overmod
One very significant point in favor of alcohol heaters and lamps on boats is exhaust in confined spaces. I cannot use a typical oil lamp indoors due to the fume smell, let alone any issue with cumulative monoxide poisoning. I am also not a fan of pressure burners for hydrocarbons, in part due to consequences of sudden leaks with the system under pressure when there is any chance of an ignition source nearby.

   I guess it's a personal thing.   I found the sickening, almost sweet smell of alcohol more objectionable than that of kerosene.   But I agree with you about pressure burners.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 16, 2019 3:17 PM

Miningman

Really don't know how you do it with all that relentless summertime heat. I suppose a person adapts eventually. 

Heres a good one... listening to the news this am and the last item is "Environment Canada has issued their prediction for this upcoming winter across Canada. It will be cold with snow."

Wow...like give these Einstein's a raise. 

 

Reminds me of the late George Carlin's "Al Sleet, the Hippy-Dippy Weatherman!"

"Tonight's forecast, dark!  Darkness will continue until tomorrow morning when it will be replaced by patches of scattered light!"

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Monday, September 16, 2019 11:54 AM

Deggesty
We just put up with what seemed to be necessary.

Remember going to my grandmothers farm home in central Indiana in the late 40's. A coal/corn cob cast iron stove in the kitchen and a coal stove in the parlor. No running water. Pump with windmill in the yard. Privy behind the house and a thundermug under the bed for night time. We are SO spoiled today. My thermostat turns up the heat in the morning and turns it down at night. Or manages the air conditioner. When I was growing up, we had a coal fired boiler to heat our house. Had to shovel the coal and haul out the ashes. Manage the dampers and the fire. So, Deggesty, you are so spot on when you say, "We just put up with what seemed to be necessary."

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, September 16, 2019 11:36 AM

Miningman
eres a good one... listening to the news this am and the last item is "Environment Canada has issued their prediction for this upcoming winter across Canada. It will be cold with snow."

I dunno - sounds like a little levity to me.  And these days, people complain if there was a 50% chance of showers and they were actually in the 50%...

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, September 16, 2019 10:15 AM

Back in the days of kerosene lamps and heaters, houses were seldom, if ever, air tight, and people accepted the smells as a part of living. Even with electric lighting, we kept kerosene lamps handy for use when the power failed

And, keeping a kerosene heater going in the bathroom during the night made a wonderful difference in the morning during winters.

We just put up with what seemed to be necessary.

Now, I have have my own heating and cooling in my two rooms. I do not know if they are connected to the emergency generator circuit in the building--one outlet is in my bedroom.

Johnny

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, September 16, 2019 8:43 AM

Really don't know how you do it with all that relentless summertime heat. I suppose a person adapts eventually. 

Heres a good one... listening to the news this am and the last item is "Environment Canada has issued their prediction for this upcoming winter across Canada. It will be cold with snow."

Wow...like give these Einstein's a raise. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 16, 2019 8:30 AM

Miningman

Oh geez Wayne... don't tell me you're one of those Americans that show up at the border in July with skis and winterwear, expecting that crossing an imaginary line it becomes winter. That actually happens. 

April 25th is the date on the pic... that is a bit late for snow but spring storms , especially in the East can bring a lot of wet heavy snow at times. 

 

Just kiddin' Vince!  Hence the emoticon!  

On the flip side, here in the American South when the temperature goes down to 99 degrees we consider that a cold snap!

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, September 16, 2019 6:45 AM

NDG
FWIW?
 
I suggest the license plate on Mack is 1962.
 

Haven't paid attention to other states - Maryland no longer issues new tags for car license plates on a yearly basis and haven't since at least 1994 and maybe several years before that - my daily driver changed from a car to SUV in 1994 and the plates were used a following SUV that lasted until early 2017 when I traded the SUV for a pick up truck.  Plates were renewed by getting and affixing a decal sticker with a serial number and year identifier. (normal renewal period is now two years).

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Sunday, September 15, 2019 11:52 PM
FWIW?
 
I suggest the license plate on Mack is 1962.
 
 
Autobus on side street, left, may be a 1959 GM New Look. Not common, Yet.
 
 
Montreal liked their Macks.  Building in distance is The Montreal Forum as per Les Habs comme Monsieur MM.
 
 
And their Can Car Brills.
 
 
The Chauffeur is using a key to log his time into Register. This had a clock inside that one could read for the time.
 
These Can Car New Looks were not a success, and are all but extinct. One known as hot dog stand in Ontario.
 
 
Thank You.

 

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, September 15, 2019 10:04 PM

Paul_D_North_Jr
Caption says April 25, 2010, but the buses look a lot older than that - also the storefronts and briefcase the the guy in front is holding.  I'd say 1950's - 1960's.

Note, too, that many of the men are wearing fedoras, or the like.

It appears to be a Brill, which Montreal bought from about 1945 to 1960.  The site I found didn't include that number.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Sunday, September 15, 2019 9:02 PM

Caption says April 25, 2010, but the buses look a lot older than that - also the storefronts and briefcase the the guy in front is holding.  I'd say 1950's - 1960's.

- PDN. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, September 15, 2019 2:36 PM

Oh geez Wayne... don't tell me you're one of those Americans that show up at the border in July with skis and winterwear, expecting that crossing an imaginary line it becomes winter. That actually happens. 

April 25th is the date on the pic... that is a bit late for snow but spring storms , especially in the East can bring a lot of wet heavy snow at times. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, September 15, 2019 1:25 PM

I thought snow in July was typical for Montreal.  Wink

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, September 15, 2019 11:30 AM

Not sure what you mean by July. The photo has a lot of snow and the caption states the month is April. 

Quite the lineup! Habs game? 

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, September 15, 2019 9:49 AM

One very significant point in favor of alcohol heaters and lamps on boats is exhaust in confined spaces.  I cannot use a typical oil lamp indoors due to the fume smell, let alone any issue with cumulative monoxide poisoning.  I am also not a fan of pressure burners for hydrocarbons, in part due to consequences of sudden leaks with the system under pressure when there is any chance of an ignition source nearby.

One thing to note about flame jetting is to avoid a container that looks like a rocket motor!  But the important precaution, as indicated, is to put wire gauze over some part of the flow path when pouring -- that applies to gasoline jerrycans as well as to stove fuel, and of course one of the first applications of the idea was to shield flames in  miners' lamps from firedamp.

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Sunday, September 15, 2019 7:06 AM
OT.
 
MTC Autobus Mack. Montreal, July.
 
 
A Droit, Autobus Can Car/Brill, Autobus GM Old Look.
 
Merci.

 

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Posted by NDG on Sunday, September 15, 2019 1:46 AM
I do not frequent Timmy's.
 
First time I had seen those ' Lamps ' and refueling same when lit.
 
Big warning should be INCLUDED inside product when shipped.
 
I have experienced ' Flame Jetting ' when adding fuel to fire, but opening was facing sideways to me and no one else around.
 
Those Propane deep fryers when folks toss in frozen Turkeys are another bomb.
 
 
OT, but, Safety First. 
 
FWIW.
 
When fire goes out on an Oil Burning locomotive, Atomiser shut off, and if oil admited and boils on bricks creating oil vapour, THEN ignites from glowing carbon, a large explosion can occur.
 
A real scare and violent.
 
Can damage Brick Arch if locomotive so equipped.
 
A lit rag should be tossed in BEFORE new oil admited which ignites oil vapour as produced.
 
You only make this mistake ONCE.
 
More Fun to watch someone else do it from afar.
 
Thank You.

 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Sunday, September 15, 2019 12:01 AM

BaltACD
NDG
FYI. 
 
Danger!  Safety First!
 
Flame Jetting.
 
Hazards refueling Methanol Lamps. 
As here. 
Thank You.

Never seen anything like those in the USA.  Do you get them at Tim Horton's or Canadian Tire?

Timmy's uses them to make coffee.

Seriously though, I've never seen one before (although I do not frequent the patio section at Canadian Tire).

The only alcohol-fired heaters I have seen were for railcars, specifically insulated boxcars and reefers.  They used alcohol because the fumes were odourless and did not contaminate the product.

I have read that the portable alcohol heaters (some were built into cars) were sometimes also used for heating cabooses.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Saturday, September 14, 2019 10:42 PM
Alcohol Lamps.
 
I have never seen one of those lamps, and do not know where they would be obtained.
 
Was aware of Flame Jetting, and it involves more than Patio Lamps, and Alcohol.
 
as here.
 
 
 
 
Google Flame Jetting.
 
It was placed here as it could save someone's life, some day.
 
Horrible way to go.
 
Safety First. Always.
 
Thank You.

 

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