Activated the link...
http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/front_page_slider/20170418/bnsf_moves_forward_with_second_bridge
Also, here is an article from a Boise paper in 2014 where they discuss the initial design and permitting work and indicate that BNSF hopes to have the bridge built by approximately 2018, so it sounds like BNSF has been plugging away on this project for a number of years...
http://www.boiseweekly.com/CityDesk/archives/2014/08/28/bnsf-plans-new-rail-bridge-over-lake-pend-oreille-in-north-idaho
BNSF has announced that they are moving forward with second bridge over the lake at Sandpoint , ID.
Well, K.P., here is the best I can do on short notice in terms of finding what is out there...
The other thing I need to say is thank you for your outstanding reporting year in and year out! We all benefit from your comprehensive coverage and it is greatly appreciated!
A Severely Angled Tracks-New Overpass
Part “E” (of A-E)
A wider northeast view:
Above, Magnolia Ave. is separated with a path between traffic lanes. Decades ago the Pacific Electric trolley cars passed on the center area. They crossed the Santa Fe, not on a diamond, but switches because of the severe angle that needed to be crossed.
The Buchanan Street grade crossing:
Just above, when K.P. was a kid there was no flood control channel, nor houses here. And no crossing gates, just a wigwag.
In the heyday of San Fe passenger trains, most of them traversed the Second District, north of here. A few came this way, on the Third District. The Grand Canyon (Nos. 23 and 24) passed here.
When K.P. was a kid, he saw two warbonnet passenger trains zoom through here in rapid succession. The first one had PA’s on the point, with green flags. The second was right on its block, and had F’s. When one is a kid and young, things are eternal. K.P. found out the hard way that wasn’t true. The passenger trains are but a memory now.
While to the west, even farther than Corona, three tracks become two. There is an old signal bridge there instead of a new cantilever structure. Such often insinuates triple-track here may be in the future. But, the Metrolink commuter platforms are only for two-tracks, which could mean a number of things.
Anyway, K.P. was desirous of conveying to the forum about the new Magnolia Ave. overpass. The most significant, as mentioned at the outset, is the wide bridging, for five tracks. If nothing else, that will ensure BNSF will be able to add more tracks here if it so chooses.
This will end the series.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Part “D” (of A-E)
The meshing ends once the tracks are clear of unscrupulous people dropping things onto trains. The view also gives one a sense of the angle of the tracks in relation to Magnolia Ave.
Looking eastbound, an overview of the angle:
Magnolia Ave. looking northeast:
Continued in Part E
Part “C” (of A-E)
Over the tracks, the bridge’s rod-iron has meshing.
Believe it or not, trains are hard to see from up on the overpass.
Even on one’s knees, trains are hard to see on the opening under the fence.
Continued in Part D
Part “B” (of A-E)
From the north side of the grade crossing:
From the south side of Magnolia Ave, looking westbound:
The sidewalk:
Continued in Part C
Part “A” (of A-E)
This involves the far western “southern” Transcon, which was two-tracked about 25 years ago, and a very recent grade separation that is a little different from the run of the mill types. Magnolia Ave. severely angle-crossed the BNSF, so the new overpass had to have cross supports.
Its location is the border between Corona and Riverside (CA), and while only two-tracks are present presently, the right-of-way looks to be five-tracks wide. Looking westbound from the southwest side of the Buchanan Street grade crossing:
Continued in Part B
Great stuff, guys, on the whole configuration at Mulvane, KS and detailing how the operations work in the area where the two main tracks diverge between there and Ellinor. Thanks so much for sharing that great information with us. When one looks at it from Google Maps, it almost looks like something one would find on a model railroad, but it is real life in 1:1 scale. Great stuff and thanks!
KP of 11-25: The route of Amtrak 3 & 4 between Ellinor and Newton is single track except within Newton yard limits and is named the Newton Sub. The Emporia Sub (Emporia via El Dorado to Wellington ) is three main tracks to Ellinor, where the most northerly track continues on to Newton.
The Emporia Sub is a mixture of single and two main tracks with long sidings where there is single track. All switches are high speed except through cities like El Dorado, Augusta and Mulvane. I do not have TT's to provide specifics but Google Earth analysis should provide those interested with good info. The two 10 MPH switches in Mulvane shown in the 1995 TT are gone and what was then called the North track is now Main 1 as it continues parallel to the Ark City Sub and the crosses over it to continue SW to rejoin Main 2 after crossing the Arkansas River.
Now further about current operations in the vicinity of Mulvane as compared with what was obtained from the 1995 TT.
I do not have a current TT but shall make this analysis by examining the Google Earth photos blown up so detail can be seen; and recognizing that the Emporia Sub is now (under normal conditions) a westward operation component of the Transcon.
The north track, Main 1, still intersects the Ark City Sub but without a switch. It is a continous track toward south Mulvane where it then blends to the right, with I assume high speed switches, continuing westward on the Transcon as Main 1. Main 2 continues to the south of Mulvane and the two rejoin SW of the Arkansas River.
Eastward Transcon trains are on Main 1 as they approach Mulvane and blend into the Ark City Sub; then continue (under normal conditions) through Wichita toward Newton and then east to Ellinor.
Trains from OK and TX continue through Mulvane on the Ark City Sub to Newton.
Westward trains for OK and TX depart the Emporia Sub at Augusta and join the Ark City Sub at Winfield.
Now I solicit any info that will further elaborate or correct the assumptions made from examining the current Google Earth photos.
Good morning KP,
First a reminder, the Mulvane info posted yesterday was from a 1995 timetable. On that topic the two 10 MPM switches connecting the NORTH track of the Emporia Sub to the Arkansas City Sub (Newton to Arkansas City) were there for two reasons. 1. To permit the then CTC dual directional Emporia Sub's North track to be used both eastward and westward, at the Dispatcher discreation, as a "siding" so that expedited Transcon trains could use the South track through Mulvane. 2. The northward "Texas-Oklahoma trains destined for Kansas City could exit the Ark City Sub with the 10 MPH switch onto the North Track of the Emporia Sub and continue toward KC without going to Newton.
I believe that there was no bias employed by dispatchers and they used whatever was at their disposal in CTC territory to expedite the movement of trains.
diningcar (11-24):
Your reply was quite informative. It raised questions, though, which you probably can answer.
For clarification, on the two Transcon routes north and east out of Mulvane, KS, are all the dual-control siding switches 40 M.P.H.? If so, the two routes are well suited for the ‘not so many trains’ like you mentioned in your November 18, 2016 post. The partial route of Amtrak Nos. 3 & 4 you said was the ‘North Track’ back in 1995. Is it still the ‘North Track’ or is it now identified as ‘Main 1’? Since you didn’t mention it in your post, is the less mileage route the ‘South Track,’ possibly now Main 2? And, what is the point of having TWO ‘South’ track routes for a few miles east out of Mulvane?
Those 10 M.P.H. switches you mentioned are presumed to be the ‘wye’ connection to the Oklahoma route as seen on aerials, and those aerials suggest those switches are unpowered and not dual-control, which implies they are not used much. In the Barstow-Lenwood area on the southern Transcon in Southern California, a similar situation existed since the Barstow Classification Yard was put in circa 1976. In the last few decades that track was made a lengthy ‘wye’ track and signaled.
That ‘wye’ type track doesn’t see much traffic. K.P. has never seen a train on it over the years. It is basically for trains going north-south in California and up to or from Oregon.
A source told me the highly trafficked single-track line out of Barstow (to Tehachapi and up north) uses 40 M.P.H. switches, and trains with LINED signals can enter and exit those sidings at 40 M.P.H. The two routes in Kansas that you, diningcar, mentioned probably have that running through the siding at 40 M.P.H. arrangements too.
Enough for now,
K.P.
KP and all: The grade separation at the south side of Mulvane is the Transcon crossing over the Newton-Wichita-Winfield and on to Oklahoma line and has been there for many years. The Transcon switches on the Wellington end are CTC and were 40MPH in 1995 TT's and the Transcon switches east of Mulvane are also 40 MPH.
In the 1995 TT the Transcon line that goes to the north of Mulvane and intersects the Newton- Okla. line is called the NORTH track and its intersection with the Newton-Okla line has a 10 MPH turnouts onto and exiting the Newton- Okla line as it continues west as the Transcon. So in 1995 the double track Transcon via El Dorado split east of Mulvane as described above and rejoined west of Mulvane. Rather than elaborate further about Mulvane at this time I will await responses to wehat I have just furnished.
[quote user="diningcar"]
samfp, you chose a very interesting location, Mulvane, KS. Rather than attempt to explain the several options BNSF has in Mulvane I suggest to those interested that they get Google Maps up and then look at Google Earth for details. Especially look for the double track and grade separation features.
[/quote] Diningcar and kgbw49:
First, I really appreciate the information and the Google Map. Thanks !
NOT TOO SURE ON THE DATE OF THE MAP(?) I may be misreading iot, but trying to follow from Mulvane across the Arkansaw R towards Wellington, it seems to show all single track (?). Currently, that is all double track that is signaled for bi-directional running on both tracks. Not sure when that additional track was added [I suspect it was prior to 2000, but uncertain as to when it was improved. ] Just recently, the BNSF added a bridge enhancement to the bridge just to the NE of the N.Oliver crossing.
The line North from Mulvane towards Wichita is signaled for bi-directional running, and has some double track, but also some segments of single track {Through the Derby,Ks. area] For urban running, the trackspeed seems to get about 50 mph, give or take, for traffic through there. Even the Watco, and B.N trackage right trains move through there as well.
K.P. You asked about an elevated line on the south end of Mulvane [The Ark City sub leaves the main route just south of the former Mulvane Station (nee: Santa Fe type brick structure], as it[Ark City sub] heads Southeast towards Udall and Winfield} It is elevated to the point that a road crossing under it has approx. a 20' clearance from the lower road surface, to the bottom of the bridge]. it is single track and signaled for running in both directions.
The line from the East switch towards the Mulvane-Wellington line swings around the East side and joins that line South, just North of the Arkansas River Bridge. It too, is single tracked, and signaled for bi-directional running.
Northbound [and Eastbound] traffic off the Ark City sub from Winfield must go to the West side of Mulvane, and either go North to Wichita and Newton, or take Fhe Ellinor sub towards the Northeast towards Gardner, Ks. and on to K.C. [BNSF has a large Intermodal facility, and Industrial Park at Gardner .]
Question Related to Mulvane, KS
In studying the Mulvane, KS movable aerial (and others) off and on for some days now, it has been noted that BNSF has one track going over the other (apparently a non-Transcon BNSF track). It is presumed that arrangement came about close to a century ago, or at least three quarters on a century ago. Obviously, the one track going over the other mentality has changed, such as with the present 1959-60 line relocation related biases shift at Window, AZ – right running to the west now becomes left running to the east (generally) -- where switches semi-accomplish the same thing as a flyover. Did AT&SF, predecessor to BNSF, many decades ago convert to switches in lieu of flyovers / fly-unders because of the great reduction of time sensitive passenger trains, or was it purely for cost reasons?
Here you go..Go Mulvane Wildcats!
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mulvane,+KS+67110/@37.4771691,-97.2454662,2801m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x87baf240008b7987:0x1e0a9c4a541bbfb8!8m2!3d37.474464!4d-97.2439325
samfp, you chose a very interesting location, Mulvbane, KS. Rather than attempt to explain the several options BNSF has in Mulvane I suggest to those interested that they get Google Maps up and then look at Google Earth for details. Especially look for the double track and grade separation features.
diningcar Pete, your question is easily answered - your item 1 is the best. However the options for BNSF in Kansas dictated use of the line you call 2. Both of these lines have been in existance for many decades so no new ROW acquistion was necessary. Adjustments could be made relatively inexpensively. The business to and from Oklahoma and Texas was what dictated this very old arrangement and the more recent developement of the "Transcon Business" only necessitated modifications - to high speed switches when desireable, upgraded signal systems and modifications in Wichita and Newton where additional trains now travel. I am sure some finer points can be made by those with more recent knowledge as I have been retired from predecessor Santa Fe since 1990.
Pete, your question is easily answered - your item 1 is the best.
However the options for BNSF in Kansas dictated use of the line you call 2. Both of these lines have been in existance for many decades so no new ROW acquistion was necessary. Adjustments could be made relatively inexpensively.
The business to and from Oklahoma and Texas was what dictated this very old arrangement and the more recent developement of the "Transcon Business" only necessitated modifications - to high speed switches when desireable, upgraded signal systems and modifications in Wichita and Newton where additional trains now travel.
I am sure some finer points can be made by those with more recent knowledge as I have been retired from predecessor Santa Fe since 1990.
alittle information on the BNSF Ellinor sub and a little about the origin of "TRANSCON"
diningcar and Pete: I have been reading back in this Thread, and find the information posted by diningcar to be really interesting. I happen to live at about the 217.5 MP on the Ellinor sub ( BNSF lists this part as Main 3). The West Switch is on the Northend of Mulvane,Ks. from there it's mostly double track, bi-directional to Wellington. Wellington to Amarillo (?). It seems that most of the track segments around here are' pieces' that have been cobbled together, and engineered to get the capacity they currently have; this has been done through various abandonments, and re-alignments of the remnants of those towns where service had been discontinued, and segments pulled up(?)
Last summer, BNSF and its Contractors re-worked the signals with LED lighting, and laid fiber-optic cabling along the ROW between Wichita and Wellington.
The traffic on thissegment of the Ellinor sub seems to be quite a bit westbound, less eastbound. ( Purely, unscientific observations of mine). From the East switch at Mulvane( about MP215/216(?) the track swings south to make to the ArkCity sub on the East side of town/ That traffic comes from Ark City via Winfield, and is single track but bi-directional running. The Ark City sub joins the T-con on the SW side of town. Traffic can go North towards Wichita or SW towards Wellington, or it can go towards Ellinor via the East switch towards Rose Hill and Augusta. ( Augusta to Winfield is single track bi-directional running.)
And a note to KP Harrier and others. There have been some mentions here about the origins of the term "TRANSCON". WE all pretty much the term as it relates to the current BNSF line to the East/West and its traffic. But the photo of the 'Transcon' Road sign, I would think was mostly in reference to the long-gone Transcon Freight Lines that disappeared in the 1990's when it was merged into the former Ryder-PIE Freight Line. Having worked for Ryder-PIE in Memphis, I was one of the ones who was caught in the mess...The whole thing was like a whirlpool sucking companies and money down...Transcon/PIE/ and eventually IU Trucking Corp (of which Landstar was involved)
See links @ http://articles.latimes.com/1990-05-01/business/fi-203_1_transcon-lines
and this, as well: @http://www.tenfourmagazine.com/2015/06/waynes-world/the-demise-of-transcon-lines-in-1990/
MidlandMike I remember looking at Google Earth, and noticing that the north end of the shorter line thru El Dorado had started out as double track for quite a while. I wonder if the eventual plan is to double track the entire segment.
I remember looking at Google Earth, and noticing that the north end of the shorter line thru El Dorado had started out as double track for quite a while. I wonder if the eventual plan is to double track the entire segment.
Because BNSF now uses two parallel unidirectional tracks for east-west traffic here, and because train counts along this segment, reflecting a lot of Chicago and Kansas City traffic diverting off the Transcon to Texas, are lower than through, say, Abo Canyon or across the Sibley (MO) bridge, thereby significantly lowering the urgency for second-tracking this segment, and because there remain significant stretches urgently needing more second track elsewhere in the system (particularly the Northern Transcon), then I'd wager, speaking as a bumpkin (formerly) from Virginia, that that track work is a long, long way off.
Diningcar/Deggesty, thanks for the replies. I suppose the next question would be which arrangement would have the greater capacity and/or flexibility:
1. An adjacent double track line, CTC, signaled in both directions or
2. A split line like Ellinor to Wellington, with sidings. Certainly, the addition of bi-directional CTC on each line would make a significant difference in the comparison as would the number and lenght of sidings. Of course, I have no idea what the situation is on that stretch of railroad.
I realize that the 2 routes serve different towns/cities, are different in length and that a perfect comparison is not really possible. I guess the question that I have is whether the BNSF considers the current arrangement an advantage or disadvantage (tolerable or not) versus adjacent 2-track CTC bi-directional mains?
Just an idle musing.
Pete
Working from SFe System ETT #4 (4/10/94), I found that Elinor-Wellington via El Dorado is 101.0 miles; via Newton it is 119.0 miles.
I have discovered that some roads' ETT's do not show the exact distances by the mileposts, and you have to add the miles between individual stations to get the exact distance. The SFe was such a road. Determining the exact mileage is further complicated by the fact that in locations with split track operation, the north or west track mileage and the south or east track mileage can be different.
Johnny
Pete, the approximate RR distance from Wellington to Ellinor via El Dorado is 101 miles and the approximat distance via Wichita and Newton is 124 miles. Someone with a former Santa Fe Middle Division TT or Track charts can get it exactly.
Interestingly, "Ellinor, Kansas" today appears to be more of a CP on the railroad than anything else. According to Wikipedia "Ellinor is an unincorporated community in Chase County, Kansas, in the United States. History[edit]. Ellinor (or Elinor) had a post office from 1871 until 1881." Not only is there no post office today, but no other buildings that I could see from the Google arial view. This search all started when I tried to approximate the railroad mileage between Ellinor and Wellington (the split trackage) with Google Maps. On Google arial view, the nearest "community" to the probable location of Ellinor is Saffordville, which appears to consist of some sort of railroad-served business, but no residences.
[/quote]
The three main tracks west from the KC Argentine Yard are all former Santa Fe. They split at Holliday where the line through Topeka to Emporia begins. The two main track Transcon line through Olathe and Ottawa to Emporia diverts south at Holliday.
Your quiry about a comparison of the Barstow - Mohave line with the sepatated paired tracks between Ellinor and Mulvane calls for two different responses. 1. the Ellinor - El Dorado - Mulvane segment where under normal conditions westward trains operate has high speed turnouts for most sidings but perhaps not through the city of El Doraro and at Augusta where the Texas traffic diverts (someone who knows more may correct me about this). 2. The Mulvane - Wichita - Newton - Ellinor line where under normal conditions eastward trains operate has more restrictive speeds through Wichita and Newton but high speed turnouts between Newton and Ellinor (where Amtrak uses operates in both directions. The Northward Texas traffic merges with the eastward Transcon at Mulvane
Anyonw with more specific or more corret info please correct me.
kgbw49 and diningcar (11-18):
Thanks and Further Kansas Questions
Great explanations by both of you!
On aerials, three-tracks go west out of Kansas City. It looks like three came from paralleling railroads, a double-track one and a single-track one. Did that arrangement come about with the merger of AT&SF and BN?
It is wondered if the less density ‘paired track’ (but separated by miles apart) between Wellington and Ellinor (KS) is like the single-track offshoot from the southern Transcon at Barstow, CA northwest, to Mojave, Tehachapi, and the Central Valley to Richmond in the Bay Area near San Francisco?
Though quite a bit shorter than the Kansas paired track, the Barstow-Mojave line is a speedy one. It uses 40 M.P.H. CTC turnouts. While trains have to enter sidings at 30 M.P.H., they can exit at 40 M.P.H. Because of that the line hosts a tremendous amount of trains per day. That Barstow-Mojave line basically is straight track with mild, swooping curves with high speed desert running.
K.P. on Saturday (yesterday, November 19, 2016) had to be in the Barstow (CA) area, which he found most timely, as he was able to photograph the east switch of the Hinkley siding for this reply.
Looking eastbound towards the 40 M.P.H. east switch:
Looking westbound:
An aerials of the above Hinkley Road / BNSF grade crossing and the 40 M.P.H. switch:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hinkley,+CA+92347/@34.9329408,-117.1890214,197m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c387de7ad5daf5:0x7c75725212bad77e!8m2!3d34.9344769!4d-117.1993469
As seen in the above photos the situation was an abnormal one with much cloud cover. Usually it is sunny, and oftentimes hot.
So, with that west of Barstow example, is that paired track in Kansas with higher speed turnouts too?
Take care,
I agree with kgbw49. I have recently seen the two 'separated main tracks' in Kansas in operation. The usual proceedure is - westward trains take the route through El Dorado and the eastward trains take the route through Wichita and Newton. Amtrak takes the route from Ellenor through Newton which is shared with the eastward trains.
We should understand that here the density of traffic from the west is much less than on the Barstow-Clovis segment of the Transcon; but the northward traffic from OK and Texas now shares these two 'separated' main tracks.
K.P., those segments are operated as paired track between Wellington and Ellinor in Kansas - think of them as two tracks with really wide space in between!
The linked map gives one an idea of how that can work as they are not all that far apart:
http://bnsf.com/customers/pdf/maps/intermodal-map-large.pdf
This is similar to the Northern Transcon between Fargo and Minot in North Dakota.
Up there, some trains take the straight route between Fargo and Minot, and others are routed from Fargo up to Grand Forks and thence to Minot.
In both cases one route is a little longer than the other (and serves a population center) but gives them de facto "two tracks" along with the dispatching optionality of two main tracks just as if they were side by side.
Here is a link to a more detailed BNSF system map for reference also:
http://bnsf.com/customers/pdf/maps/carload_map.pdf
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