2013 video. I think the location is about 4:45 to 5:00, comparing from aerial video at link.
Murphy Siding Deggesty Yes, how do you manage to bend a rail when driving a truck? Bend a rail, or simply push the track and ties over enough to cause problems?
Deggesty Yes, how do you manage to bend a rail when driving a truck?
Yes, how do you manage to bend a rail when driving a truck?
Bend a rail, or simply push the track and ties over enough to cause problems?
To: Johnny and Murphy S.
I would make a somewhat 'educated guess" (?)
Most of the OTR truck bumpers are generally stamped from lighter gauges of steel.
Out here, you see large numbers of OTR units, on which have been installed what is sometimes locally referred to as "Bambie Bumpers". {Items made of steel and tubing]. Obviously, they are in-place to stop damage to a trucks front cap (Hood assembly), which is generally, moulded out of fiberglass. The repair or replacement of which, can run into numbers in excess of $1,500+ K.
Generally, trucks that get hung on crossings are due to an extremes of elevation between road/driving surface, and the elevation of the track(s). Landing gear 'feet/pads' are a usual culprite. Some drivers fail to retract them up as far as possible. The next is the low-riding trailer's frame rails- Low Boy- style are massive constructs, and with a little speed can really make' a hit' on a track structure. The 'possum bellys'[Van-style \-Moving vans, Drop frames,etc.] are another, but much lighter construction, except in their landing gear. The crossing with a raised elevation can cause these to get 'high centered', and may require a wrecker to move them off the offending crossing--or an approaching locomotive !
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I suspect that we have our answer.Johnny, I've watched section men straighten out track segments with the bucket end of a Speed-swing just by pushing against them. It would be no problem for a truck bumper like that, whacking either the ties or the rail, to cause the damage needed to derail the train.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Take a look at the front bumper - hitting something like track structure at 30-40 MPH or more could easily shift the track.
http://www.kmbc.com/news/ntsb-feed-truck-hit-shifted-tracks-before-amtrak-derailment/38531252?utm_source=Social&utm_medium=FBPAGE&utm_campaign=KMBC%209%20News%20Kansas%20City&Content%20Type=Story
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Johnny
So we cannot yet conclude that the rail that was bent by the truck in Kansas was the same bent rail that derailed the Amtrak train.
I would like to hear a little more about the truck driver, how he bent the rail, and what he did next.
T'warn't no car....
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
NTSB guy probably will speak again at 4:30 central time.
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/PR20160315.aspx
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/speeches/EWeener/Pages/bio_weener.aspx
In conjunction with the vehicle tracks they also menioned "damage". Specifically, they mentioned damage that did not appear to be intentional. I wonder if the damage is being associated with a cause of a vehicle strike, and what the damage looks like. If this track damage derailed the train, I would expect there to be track damage at that point that was caused by the derailment.
cefinkjrOh, yeah. I've seen that or similar a time or two, but an automobile and not at a crossing?
The reports only mention "tracks." Nothing about what type of vehicle that I've seen...
We'll see what they come up with.
tree68 cefinkjr ...but an automobile? We had a log truck bottom out on a trail crossing and take it out very definitively - and at a low speed. And it was on track that had just been rehabbed...
cefinkjr ...but an automobile?
We had a log truck bottom out on a trail crossing and take it out very definitively - and at a low speed.
And it was on track that had just been rehabbed...
Oh, yeah. I've seen that or similar a time or two, but an automobile and not at a crossing?
ChuckAllen, TX
tk48 Driven along this line many times on US 50 in a big truck, mostly flat ground with few obstructions, believe former AT&SF passenger line is still mostly jointed rail. This wreck will have political repercussions as BNSF has stated it wants to downgrade maintenance from 79 mph track and sell the line to states of Ks, Co, and NM. No military tanks in area but plenty of heavy ag and some oilfield trucks and private crossings. To kink a rail frame of truck would have to drag and hook something, driver would certainly be aware. I bottomed out once on former MP mainline in San Antonio, didn't hurt the rail but sure damaged reefer trailer. Called UP dispatcher and MOW was there fast, Texas Eagle was due in a few hrs.
Driven along this line many times on US 50 in a big truck, mostly flat ground with few obstructions, believe former AT&SF passenger line is still mostly jointed rail. This wreck will have political repercussions as BNSF has stated it wants to downgrade maintenance from 79 mph track and sell the line to states of Ks, Co, and NM. No military tanks in area but plenty of heavy ag and some oilfield trucks and private crossings. To kink a rail frame of truck would have to drag and hook something, driver would certainly be aware. I bottomed out once on former MP mainline in San Antonio, didn't hurt the rail but sure damaged reefer trailer. Called UP dispatcher and MOW was there fast, Texas Eagle was due in a few hrs.
As many readers around here are aware the line, and the fate of the route of AMTRAK's SW Chief in question has been the subject of discussion off and on in Threads on this Forum. BNSF has alternately pushed to get the 'Chief' rerouted ( possibly to ultimately abandone the line (?) and pushed for the State's entities to provide funding to upgrade the line and provide other' enhancements' along the line in Kansas, Colorado, and new Mexico. The area of the most recent (Cimarron,Ks area) derailment of the SW Chief was apparently not in the plan for rehabilitation to-date. The first phase of the announced plan( in Oct. 2015) has been completed accrding to a media TV interview, no phase two is to be moved on.
One of the local TV stations has been providing coverage from the scene over yesterday and this morning. They showed some of RJ Corman's equipment re-railing a couple of the derailed passenger cars that had been laid over in the derailment. Five of the seven cars were envolved and showed some damage to their sides from 'sliding' when grounded.
The media is crediting the trains engineer with quick action after his observing a problem with the trck ahead, and making a timely emergency brake application.
There is also some 'conversation' in the media[ from unnamed sources] that the track may have been 'damaged' at some point by a previous incident involving a crossing and 'a truck'(?) No details have been provided in those statements.
CShaveRR BaltACD Your carrier has strange speed tables. On my railroad, a mile goes by in 45 seconds at 80. If you take up 48, you're doing 75. 50 is 72.
BaltACD
Your carrier has strange speed tables. On my railroad, a mile goes by in 45 seconds at 80. If you take up 48, you're doing 75. 50 is 72.
Fat fingers at work - I meant 75.
The track in question was apparently good for 75 (probably 80). Given that, it's hard to imagine how a rubber-tired automobile could leave a highway, cross a shallow depression (drainage ditch?), and have any effect on the parallel track. Maybe a heavily loaded truck, certainly an M1A1 tank with some effort (in a neutral steer*), but an automobile?
* For the non-tankers out there, a neutral steer is when a tank's transmission is put in neutral, the steering wheel (levers?) put hard over in either direction, and power is applied. The result is the tracks going in opposite directions; tearing up whatever the tank is sitting on at the time and possibly removing one or both tracks. To be honest, I'm not even sure an M1A1 is capable of this; the M48 and M60 of my day were.
BaltACDAt 80 MPH that is a mile every 48 seconds.
tree68 BaltACD Agreed. I was referring to the reported noise that had supposedly been going on for 20 minutes before the derailment. And the cotter key was just a placeholder for whatever changed that may have caused the noise. If, indeed, something came loose, it could have been any of a number of things. Until we hear further, though, the kink (or whatever it was) is probably the prime culprit, especially with reports of a possible vehicle hitting the tracks beforehand coming to light. Chicago Tribune The tracks run along Highway 50, which has no barrier that would prevent a vehicle from leaving the roadway and driving near or onto the tracks. The road and tracks are separated by a shallow depression. Authorities were examining tire tracks leading to the rails. The damage did not appear to be intentional, Gray County sheriff's Deputy J.G. Sharp said.
Agreed.
I was referring to the reported noise that had supposedly been going on for 20 minutes before the derailment. And the cotter key was just a placeholder for whatever changed that may have caused the noise. If, indeed, something came loose, it could have been any of a number of things.
Until we hear further, though, the kink (or whatever it was) is probably the prime culprit, especially with reports of a possible vehicle hitting the tracks beforehand coming to light.
Chicago Tribune The tracks run along Highway 50, which has no barrier that would prevent a vehicle from leaving the roadway and driving near or onto the tracks. The road and tracks are separated by a shallow depression. Authorities were examining tire tracks leading to the rails. The damage did not appear to be intentional, Gray County sheriff's Deputy J.G. Sharp said.
Authorities were examining tire tracks leading to the rails. The damage did not appear to be intentional, Gray County sheriff's Deputy J.G. Sharp said.
Reminds me of the Bayou Canot bridge and the Sunset Limited. The barge didn't hit the bridge intentionally. But it did knock the rail out of line.
BaltACDA missing cotter key wouldn't cause the engineer to apply the brakes in emergency for something he viewed ahead of him.
Chicago TribuneThe tracks run along Highway 50, which has no barrier that would prevent a vehicle from leaving the roadway and driving near or onto the tracks. The road and tracks are separated by a shallow depression. Authorities were examining tire tracks leading to the rails. The damage did not appear to be intentional, Gray County sheriff's Deputy J.G. Sharp said.
I understand that the locomotive had a forward facing camera. It will be interesting to see what the engineer saw. Hope it gets released soon.
tree68 BaltACD tree68 Reports of a possible kink in a rail and "noises" for 20 minutes before the wreck... Of course, if it's the "ubiquitous 20 minutes" we encounter in the fire service, it could be five, but, still... At 80 MPH that is a mile every 48 seconds. I should note that the story didn't tie the two together, and I didn't intend to. What I read (and Euclid quoted) indicated that the engineer saw the deformity and dumped the train. The noises were reportedly heard by a passenger for ~20 minutes before the wreck. As you note, though, even five minutes at almost 80 MPH makes for a substantial distance to search for clues. Just as a f'rinstance, if a cotter key turned up missing, and the noise really did start 20 minutes earlier, it could be laying on the roadbed 25-30 miles away. Needle in a haystack time...
BaltACD tree68 Reports of a possible kink in a rail and "noises" for 20 minutes before the wreck... Of course, if it's the "ubiquitous 20 minutes" we encounter in the fire service, it could be five, but, still... At 80 MPH that is a mile every 48 seconds.
tree68 Reports of a possible kink in a rail and "noises" for 20 minutes before the wreck... Of course, if it's the "ubiquitous 20 minutes" we encounter in the fire service, it could be five, but, still...
Reports of a possible kink in a rail and "noises" for 20 minutes before the wreck...
Of course, if it's the "ubiquitous 20 minutes" we encounter in the fire service, it could be five, but, still...
At 80 MPH that is a mile every 48 seconds.
I should note that the story didn't tie the two together, and I didn't intend to. What I read (and Euclid quoted) indicated that the engineer saw the deformity and dumped the train. The noises were reportedly heard by a passenger for ~20 minutes before the wreck.
As you note, though, even five minutes at almost 80 MPH makes for a substantial distance to search for clues. Just as a f'rinstance, if a cotter key turned up missing, and the noise really did start 20 minutes earlier, it could be laying on the roadbed 25-30 miles away. Needle in a haystack time...
A missing cotter key wouldn't cause the engineer to apply the brakes in emergency for something he viewed ahead of him.
Guarantee you the track department is walking or riding the corridor...local news video was showing them measuring from the POD back or looking for the POD to determine how things came to rest. Looking for cuts, nicks, pattern wear, disturbed ties and ballast locations....anything that looks out of whack. Track supervisor is probably looking from last known stop and hi-railing into POD looking for anything of note. Mechanical guys and operating folks are running their own audits, usually closer to the POD and all three groups are staying in touch and passing data to wreckmaster/EIC for the railroad who is then working with the outside agencies.
Chuck: you expect the "newsworkers" to even get "just the facts" correct before they embellish the crap out of things?
tomikawaTT What I (don't) like about the original link (aside from the obvious 'break' in spelling) was that the whole second half was 'human interest heartwrench.' No facts, no details about the actual physical event, but we now know that some female passenger called her mother... Then the comments section immediately degenerated into a political flame war. Bah, humbug. Let me know when an official accident report is released. Chuck (Southern Nevada spectator)
What I (don't) like about the original link (aside from the obvious 'break' in spelling) was that the whole second half was 'human interest heartwrench.' No facts, no details about the actual physical event, but we now know that some female passenger called her mother...
Then the comments section immediately degenerated into a political flame war.
Bah, humbug. Let me know when an official accident report is released.
Chuck (Southern Nevada spectator)
That's typical of today's media. Don't be concerned with facts, make some up and interview all the neighbors and make sure they cry when you do. It's nothing less than pure unadulterated garbage reporting.
Norm
mudchicken........MP 373 to MP 375 out there are getting a serious going ........
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