There has been much discussion about not reporting hitting the tracks. "IF" this was a runaway truck it may be the reported truck ran down a hill crossed the road and ran up the ROW embankment. Unattended it may have rolled back down ROW embankment ? If so how far the feed company found the truck away from track may indicate why no one saw that the track or even ROW embankment was hit ? Night time runaway truck ? Also was the steering wheel locked or free wheeling which may affect how truck ended up ? We need a first hand report from someone to give us some measurements. Davews ?
Remember the opposite Limited also crossed the derailment area at night.
narig01 For those of you who subscribe: http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/03/22-sw-chief-truck For those that do not according to an article in the Trains Newswire the truck was "a driverless runaway" according to local law enforcement.
For those of you who subscribe:
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/03/22-sw-chief-truck
For those that do not according to an article in the Trains Newswire the truck was "a driverless runaway" according to local law enforcement.
And if the truck was not there when the SWC came through, those that removed the truck must have seen the damage that was done to the track and still failed to report the happening to the railroad or the local authorities.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
One other comment,
When I looked to see who else had this, I could not find any other mention.
A couple of points.
[1] Even when the cause is very clear and well known, the NTSB will still not release a cause or finding until every potential cause is investigated and studied. The NTSB examines things like this in detail, often holds a hearing, and then releases a full report before they state the full cause. This can take days, months, or even years. For this, I would expect a month or so.
[2] Track can easily be moved to the side by almost any vehicle strike. A simple car can move the track over, something often found at grade crossing accidents where a car misses the crossing. I have also cleaned up behind a tractor with a disc striking the track, a number of car and truck strikes, and even from small 4-wheelers bouncing over the tracks.
[3] Initial reports from the NTSB and others is that the track had an alinement deviation of 12"-14" at the location. The maximum for a passenger train going 60 mph (FRA track class 3) is 1-3/4" in 62'. The alinement deviation reported certainly seems to be more than sufficient to cause the derailment.
Norm48327 Thanks for the info. The powers that be seem to be rather close mouthed regarding this one. Perhaps they don't want the media crucifying the train crew or others like was done with Amtrak 188. OTOH, this one wasn't as bad so the media has lost interest quickly.
Thanks for the info. The powers that be seem to be rather close mouthed regarding this one. Perhaps they don't want the media crucifying the train crew or others like was done with Amtrak 188. OTOH, this one wasn't as bad so the media has lost interest quickly.
Media Rule 1 - If it bleeds it leads.
Very little blood, nobody died, railroad not visibly culpable of creating the incident. Let it die out of the 'news cycle'.
Norm
Don't know how much help this is, but I live 20 mi from the scene and was out with camera the following morning. The feed lot north of hwy 50 and tracks sits atop a veeerry steep hill and would generate tons of energy in a runaway truck scenario. Law enforcement have interviewed the driver, but the resulting information won't become public for some time (unless there is a leak).
Norm48327 Euclid I am not sure about the runaway part. It could have been a loss of control on the highway. I see the bent bumper sort of. I don't see it as being a particularly obvious irregularity in the photo. There is some distortion from the wide angle lens of the camera. But even if the bumper is damaged, I don't believe it is from impact as the truck collided with the track. To get the energy to move the track at the speed of a collision would have done more damage. But to get the force at a slow, even pull of a winch, it would have been much easier to move the track without causing damage to the corresponding part of the truck. As I mention the most likely way to get a firm connection between the truck and track would be the frame or axles. That would also have been possible with the bumper, but frame or axle on top of the track seems like a more likely way to get a solid lock on the rail. So I am betting that a tow truck moved the rail as it pulled on the snagged grain truck. Ya know, I simply threw out the possibility of the truck rolling down the hill. Without more information from the NTSB there is no need to disect it.
Euclid I am not sure about the runaway part. It could have been a loss of control on the highway. I see the bent bumper sort of. I don't see it as being a particularly obvious irregularity in the photo. There is some distortion from the wide angle lens of the camera. But even if the bumper is damaged, I don't believe it is from impact as the truck collided with the track. To get the energy to move the track at the speed of a collision would have done more damage. But to get the force at a slow, even pull of a winch, it would have been much easier to move the track without causing damage to the corresponding part of the truck. As I mention the most likely way to get a firm connection between the truck and track would be the frame or axles. That would also have been possible with the bumper, but frame or axle on top of the track seems like a more likely way to get a solid lock on the rail. So I am betting that a tow truck moved the rail as it pulled on the snagged grain truck.
I am not sure about the runaway part. It could have been a loss of control on the highway. I see the bent bumper sort of. I don't see it as being a particularly obvious irregularity in the photo. There is some distortion from the wide angle lens of the camera.
But even if the bumper is damaged, I don't believe it is from impact as the truck collided with the track. To get the energy to move the track at the speed of a collision would have done more damage. But to get the force at a slow, even pull of a winch, it would have been much easier to move the track without causing damage to the corresponding part of the truck.
As I mention the most likely way to get a firm connection between the truck and track would be the frame or axles. That would also have been possible with the bumper, but frame or axle on top of the track seems like a more likely way to get a solid lock on the rail. So I am betting that a tow truck moved the rail as it pulled on the snagged grain truck.
Ya know, I simply threw out the possibility of the truck rolling down the hill. Without more information from the NTSB there is no need to disect it.
Norm,
I just threw out some possibilities too. Others may read them if they want to, and they may choose to respond. Here is an interesting video that seems to fit the general theme of this derailment, although this one was lucky:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LoXgN1QWZM
I see that there is a gravel road alonside of the track, quite close, on the side opposite of Hwy. 50. I have not heard of which road the truck may have approached from.
tree68 Euclid So I am betting that a tow truck moved the rail as it pulled on the snagged grain truck. 1. Look at Balt's picture of the coal truck again. That truck dislodged two rails and moved the track structure on the center track. No tow truck involved. 2. Any incident involving a commercial tow vehicle removing a truck from the tracks would have also involved law enforcement.
Euclid So I am betting that a tow truck moved the rail as it pulled on the snagged grain truck.
1. Look at Balt's picture of the coal truck again. That truck dislodged two rails and moved the track structure on the center track. No tow truck involved.
2. Any incident involving a commercial tow vehicle removing a truck from the tracks would have also involved law enforcement.
Oh, I have no problem believing that the truck would be capable of moving the track with no tow truck. The picture of the coal truck, besides moving the track considerably, also shows massive damage to the truck.
I suppose the truck in this case could have moved the tracks by impacting them, and not suffered much damage. But it seems like that would require a perpendicular hit in order to direct the force into the track without producing a glancing manner of deflection. And yet that kind of oblique or glancing angle strike is what I would expect in the case of a vehicle losing control and leaving the roadway at speed.
I just sense that there is more to this story than what meets the eye. The way the NTSB is dancing around the truck involvement strikes me as odd. How long does it take to get to the truck driver and ask him what happened, assuming that the truck owner is cooperating as they say?
Maybe someone was in the habit of carefully driving over the tracks without the aid of a crossing to get access to fields when necessary. And maybe they were not so careful this time.
EuclidSo I am betting that a tow truck moved the rail as it pulled on the snagged grain truck.
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EuclidThere was no damge to the truck because there was no impact.
As noted by Bob Withorn, there is damage to the truck, specifically the front bumper.
And as I noted, with the usual profile of the ballast, etc, the ties and rails would be right about bumper level.
If I'm looking at the right feedlot, a runaway down county road 16 would have gone across Route 50 and over a crossing. No crossing has been mentioned as being involved, from what I recall.
A runaway like that seems plausible. Suppose the truck ran down the hill, hit the railroad fill, ran up, jumped a bit, and landed about halfway across the track.
At some point, it was discovered, if not right when it happened. Then in a panic to drive it off the track, they discovered that the truck was hung up with its frame snagged on the track. Then what?
Call the tow truck and start a nice steady pull with a big winch. As the truck moved, so did the track. That would explain the ability to move the track with no particular damage to the truck. That is my guess.
There was no damge to the truck because there was no impact.
Looking at the area in Google Earth street view shows the feedlot is uphill from US 50 and the tracks. That makes me wonder if the truck was in the feedlot and the driver forgot to set the brakes and the truck ran away without the driver. Could the hill give the truck enough momentum to cross the road and impact the tracks. Just tossing out a possibility. A gap in the fence was mentioned but there was no indication whether it was existing or the truck made that.
More information from NTSB would be welcome.
samfp1943I am guessing that that was a reference to the Conductor pulling an emergency cord running within the train?
Conductor, engineer. Is there any difference? Based on the sheer volume of news reporters that don't seem to know the difference...
We do, of course, and the initial reports were that the engineer dumped the train when he saw the "track anomaly." The conductor, back on the train itself, would only be prompted to pull the brake if s/he knew something was wrong that the engineer hadn't otherwise recognized.
IIRC I thought the NTSB reported the locomotive engineer had applied the emergency brakes before the derailment.
BOB WITHORN Euclid, The truck in the photo does have damage to the heavy front bumper. You can see it is bent in at the bottom with verticle posts on the ends tilting out. That bumper is a heavy steel one not the typical thin ones that come on new trucks. I got tired of having drivers wreck the bumpers on our trucks and put heavy 'C' channel on instead back in the mid 80's. Didn't have anymore wrecked bumpers but they destroyed the pit railing instead. And the corner of a building.
Euclid, The truck in the photo does have damage to the heavy front bumper. You can see it is bent in at the bottom with verticle posts on the ends tilting out. That bumper is a heavy steel one not the typical thin ones that come on new trucks. I got tired of having drivers wreck the bumpers on our trucks and put heavy 'C' channel on instead back in the mid 80's. Didn't have anymore wrecked bumpers but they destroyed the pit railing instead. And the corner of a building.
On Wednesday 903/16/2016) The Wichita Eagle (by Oliver Morrison) carried a rather lentghty article referencing the SW Chief's recent derailment and the envolvement of the 'grain feed truck', near Cimarron,Ks.
The article references a statement by NTSB member Earl Weener; stating that "...the' train derailed within 25 feet of the point of impact...", The article further stated; "...'investigators had found that the tracks had shifted 12 to 14 inches to the South..." ( infrormation from the video from the forward facing camera within the lead engine). Another statement from the article states;"... that the derailment had not occurred near a graded rail crossing, where a road is designed to to carry vehicles over the tracks..."
Additional details from the article indicate that the Cimarron Crossing Feeders,LLC. facility {a feed lot feeding approx 20,000 cattle} is adjacent to the location of the derailment, a sign for the entrance to the facility is visible from the area of the derailment, and the article further mentions Mr, Weener's coments "... that no report of any trucks crossing the tracks had been made to the local authorities or to the railroad,,,"[ie: BNSF]. It was further commented that an Official Report [from NTSB] of the accident could take approximated a year(?)
There was a statement included in the article referencing the speed of the train (@60 mph) but it was also mentioned that it took "... the Conductor had put the brakes on near the scene of the derailment, it took 18 seconds for the train to come to a complete stop and it had traveled 919 feet in that time..."
I am guessing that that was a reference to the Conductor pulling an emergency cord running within the train?
In the second video of wanswheel's post above, the Amtrak power consist was AMK 153 and 152. If the power roams everywhere that was quite a coincidence sequential units were involved!
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tree68Aha! Bit of speed involved there... Wasn't looking at the coal on the roadbed... Given the damage to the cab of the truck, I wouldn't be surprised at serious injury or death for the driver.
Actually, he wasn't hurt bad at all. Said his brakes failed coming down a hill - happened in Summerhill, PA.
http://www.tribdem.com/news/latest_news/coal-truck-crash-closes-train-tracks-in-summerhill-driver-injured/article_53680fda-1149-11e5-a206-b3660196ba27.html
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
BaltACDTree - truck was only empty as photographed - the sudden stop threw the contents ahead of the truck and over the other tracks.
Aha! Bit of speed involved there... Wasn't looking at the coal on the roadbed...
Given the damage to the cab of the truck, I wouldn't be surprised at serious injury or death for the driver.
The damage to the truck in the Kansas incident doesn't spell serious injury to the driver, especially if he was belted in. To his pocketbook, maybe, for leaving the scene of a property damage accident...
tree68 Euclid Note Balt's post and image - that truck was empty, and had detached one rail from the ties before pushing the track out of alignment. There is definitely damage to that after-market bumper. With the usual profile of track structure, the ties would easily be at bumper level (note the video of the line from a couple of years ago). It's not a reach to conclude that said truck could have jogged the track out of alignment. At normal Amtrak speeds, a couple of feet of misalignment (again, look at Balt's image) could be pretty dangerous, especially with the high center of gravity of the cars.
Euclid
Note Balt's post and image - that truck was empty, and had detached one rail from the ties before pushing the track out of alignment.
There is definitely damage to that after-market bumper. With the usual profile of track structure, the ties would easily be at bumper level (note the video of the line from a couple of years ago).
It's not a reach to conclude that said truck could have jogged the track out of alignment. At normal Amtrak speeds, a couple of feet of misalignment (again, look at Balt's image) could be pretty dangerous, especially with the high center of gravity of the cars.
Tree - truck was only empty as photographed - the sudden stop threw the contents ahead of the truck and over the other tracks.
EuclidBut the photo in the link does not show an unsually large, off-road truck. It shows a relatively small, single axle highway truck with a feed box. The only way I could see that moving the track would be if it snagged the rail at some speed of say 10-20 mph. I wonder what circumstances would have produced that scenario. Even with that strong bumper, I would expect an imact collision to produce some damage to the truck.
Euclid It is a painful process for this story to unfold. In some of the description, it sounds like a truck crossed the tracks without there being any crossing in place. It implies that the truck was some sort of monster off-road Ag truck that simply damage the rails by driving over them. But the photo in the link does not show an unsually large, off-road truck. It shows a relatively small, single axle highway truck with a feed box. The only way I could see that moving the track would be if it snagged the rail at some speed of say 10-20 mph. I wonder what circumstances would have produced that scenario. Even with that strong bumper, I would expect an imact collision to produce some damage to the truck. http://www.kansas.com/news/state/article66279717.html
It is a painful process for this story to unfold. In some of the description, it sounds like a truck crossed the tracks without there being any crossing in place. It implies that the truck was some sort of monster off-road Ag truck that simply damage the rails by driving over them.
But the photo in the link does not show an unsually large, off-road truck. It shows a relatively small, single axle highway truck with a feed box. The only way I could see that moving the track would be if it snagged the rail at some speed of say 10-20 mph. I wonder what circumstances would have produced that scenario. Even with that strong bumper, I would expect an imact collision to produce some damage to the truck.
http://www.kansas.com/news/state/article66279717.html
Track, subjected to side pressure, can be move out of alignment without massive pressures. The 'old time' section gang of 8-10 men with lining bars working together could move track without problems.
Here a coal truck has moved track for the NS - somewhat more energetically than the feed truck in Kansas.
wanswheel 2013 video. I think the location is about 4:45 to 5:00, comparing from aerial video at link. http://www.kwch.com/news/local-news/amtrak-with-142-people-on-board-derails-near-dodge-city/38500994
2013 video. I think the location is about 4:45 to 5:00, comparing from aerial video at link.
Two things - from the opposing highway traffic, there are a lot of 18 wheel stock trucks as the normal traffic. At the time the video was made the railroad was prepared for a tie & surfacing gang to begin working in the not too distant future as there are ties laid out along the right of way.
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