CN lines in Iowa

[Ulrich]

How did it come about that CN has track in Iowa? Were these lines part of the Wiscounsin Central or Illinois Central?

[schlimm]

Illinois Central.

[greyhounds]

It's an interesting story.

The IC had a line from Chicago to Council Bluffs, Iowa.  It branched to Cedar Rapids, Sioux City, and Sioux Falls, SD (long since gone).

Shortly before I left the ICG it was decided that things were basically hopeless.  The ICG could not be operated at a profit given the then present circumstances.  Nor could it be sold.  (The Southern actually made a negative offer.  They'd take the ICG only if they were paid to do so.)

So.  They tried to sell it off piecemeal.  That's how the Indiana Rail Road, the Paducha and Louisville, the short lived Chicago, Missouri and Western, and the Midsouth (now KCS) came about.

One other sale was the Iowa lines.  They became the Chicago Central and Pacific.  The Iowa line had some financial turmoil but was running along when E. Hunter Harrison decided to buy it back.

I was talking to the late Doug Hagestad, who I knew from the ICG, when he said:  "I'll never understand why Hunter bought it back."  (Doug operated at the vice president level, I didn't.)

The IC's Iowa line(s) have been referred to as "The Main Line of Meat".  A play on IC's claim to be the "Main Line of Mid-America".  They hauled a lot of dead cows and hogs.  Meat was a core market for the line.  

To this day, Iowa and neighboring Nebraska are the two leading states supplying our appitite for pork and beef.  And the CN runs a very low volume rail line while refusing to go after the high volume, long haul meat business. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again;  I'd give a week's pay to know why they let this line sit basically empty and don't develop the available business.

 

 

[CMStPnP]

greyhounds

It's an interesting story.

The IC had a line from Chicago to Council Bluffs, Iowa.  It branched to Cedar Rapids, Sioux City, and Sioux Falls, SD (long since gone).

Shortly before I left the ICG it was decided that things were basically hopeless.  The ICG could not be operated at a profit given the then present circumstances.  Nor could it be sold.  (The Southern actually made a negative offer.  They'd take the ICG only if they were paid to do so.)

So.  They tried to sell it off piecemeal.  That's how the Indiana Rail Road, the Paducha and Louisville, the short lived Chicago, Missouri and Western, and the Midsouth (now KCS) came about.

One other sale was the Iowa lines.  They became the Chicago Central and Pacific.  The Iowa line had some financial turmoil but was running along when E. Hunter Harrison decided to buy it back.

I was talking to the late Doug Hagestad, who I knew from the ICG, when he said:  "I'll never understand why Hunter bought it back."  (Doug operated at the vice president level, I didn't.)

The IC's Iowa line(s) have been referred to as "The Main Line of Meat".  A play on IC's claim to be the "Main Line of Mid-America".  They hauled a lot of dead cows and hogs.  Meat was a core market for the line.  

To this day, Iowa and neighboring Nebraska are the two leading states supplying our appitite for pork and beef.  And the CN runs a very low volume rail line while refusing to go after the high volume, long haul meat business. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again;  I'd give a week's pay to know why they let this line sit basically empty and don't develop the available business.

While it makes no sense for the IC or ICG to hold onto it.   Could it be with more online end destinations that CN added it makes sense for CN to hold onto it?    CN added two Pacific Ports and some Eastern Ports as well beyond New Orleans for shippers to choose from.

I know I heard in Nothern Wisconsin I heard that CN threatened to close most of the lines in Northern Wisconsin and the UP of Michigan but now has formed a partnership with both Wisconsin and local business communities to add more traffic or convert more truck traffic to rail to keep the lines running in place.   Not sure how effective the campaign has been but the lines are still up and running for the most part in the UP.   In Wisconsin at least CN is pushing the fact that it now offers one line service to a number of Pacific and Eastern Ports for international shipments.

[tree68]

CMStPnP

I know I heard in Nothern Wisconsin I heard that CN threatened to close most of the lines in Northern Wisconsin and the UP of Michigan...

I would opine that in such cases the RR is looking solely at ROI.  Busy mainlines have a great ROI.  Sleepy branch lines, not so much.

The Class 1's seem to love traffic that requires no real handling (ie, switching).  

Which raises an interesting question - with the lessening of bulk traffic (specifically CBR and coal), will the big railroads start to look back toward loose car railroading?  Will the branch lines that generate that traffic once again look attractive?

[Victrola1]

The Illinois Central reached north out of Iowa with a line running from Waterloo/Cedar Falls, IA to Albert Lea, MN. In conjunction with the Minneapolis and St. Louis through passenger and freight service to the Twin Cities was provided. That business dwindled long ago. 

This line was in rough shape 20 years ago. CN pulled this branch to Albert Lea out of the mud. Evidently there is enough grain hauled on this branch to justify the expense of its rehabilitation and maintenance. 

 

[dknelson]

Maybe I was just lucky but I have railfanned the line a few times, mostly at or around Dyersville, and have seen a fair number of trains, including the branch local at Manchester.  The line appears to be well maintained, although in more than once place I found those deteriorated "composite" material ties that either IC or CN experimented with. 

Dave Nelson

[blhanel]

Victrola1

The Illinois Central reached north out of Iowa with a line running from Waterloo/Cedar Falls, IA to Albert Lea, MN. In conjunction with the Minneapolis and St. Louis through passenger and freight service to the Twin Cities was provided. That business dwindled long ago. 

This line was in rough shape 20 years ago. CN pulled this branch to Albert Lea out of the mud. Evidently there is enough grain hauled on this branch to justify the expense of its rehabilitation and maintenance. 

 

 

I'll vouch for that- while headed north to MN over the holidays, I passed a loooong CN freight of covered hoppers being pulled by four six-axle engines headed north out of Cedar Falls towards Janesville.  Moving along pretty good, too...

[schlimm]

tree68

Which raises an interesting question - with the lessening of bulk traffic (specifically CBR and coal), will the big railroads start to look back toward loose car railroading?  Will the branch lines that generate that traffic once again look attractive?

I've been saying that for awhile.  Ken (greyhounds) has talked up refrigerated trailer meat hauling.   Maybe now both will get some consideration?

[Ulrich]

schlimm

 

tree68

Which raises an interesting question - with the lessening of bulk traffic (specifically CBR and coal), will the big railroads start to look back toward loose car railroading?  Will the branch lines that generate that traffic once again look attractive?

 

 

I've been saying that for awhile.  Ken (greyhounds) has talked up refrigerated trailer meat hauling.   Maybe now both will get some consideration?

 

So have I. This is getting away from the original discussion but interesting nonetheless. What would happen if manufacturing ever did come back here from Asia in a big way? Suddenly that long container haul from Long Beach to Chicago turns into (for example) a Peoria to Chicago. Not so great for the rails. And once again we would need more branchlines, the capillaries that connect to the main arteries.

 

[buddyburton]

The Cedar Rapids branch has seen a rise in traffic, mainly the grain trains. Just a few days ago, I videoed a southbound grainer out on the branch.

 

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

greyhounds

It's an interesting story.

The IC had a line from Chicago to Council Bluffs, Iowa.  It branched to Cedar Rapids, Sioux City, and Sioux Falls, SD (long since gone).

Shortly before I left the ICG it was decided that things were basically hopeless.  The ICG could not be operated at a profit given the then present circumstances.  Nor could it be sold.  (The Southern actually made a negative offer.  They'd take the ICG only if they were paid to do so.)

So.  They tried to sell it off piecemeal.  That's how the Indiana Rail Road, the Paducha and Louisville, the short lived Chicago, Missouri and Western, and the Midsouth (now KCS) came about.

One other sale was the Iowa lines.  They became the Chicago Central and Pacific.  The Iowa line had some financial turmoil but was running along when E. Hunter Harrison decided to buy it back.

I was talking to the late Doug Hagestad, who I knew from the ICG, when he said:  "I'll never understand why Hunter bought it back."  (Doug operated at the vice president level, I didn't.)

The IC's Iowa line(s) have been referred to as "The Main Line of Meat".  A play on IC's claim to be the "Main Line of Mid-America".  They hauled a lot of dead cows and hogs.  Meat was a core market for the line.  

To this day, Iowa and neighboring Nebraska are the two leading states supplying our appitite for pork and beef.  And the CN runs a very low volume rail line while refusing to go after the high volume, long haul meat business. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again;  I'd give a week's pay to know why they let this line sit basically empty and don't develop the available business.

 

 

 

All I can say is A-FREAKING-MEN to Greyhounds' post.  This is a subject that has been discussed more than once on this forum and I'm glad that it's come up again. Growing up in NE Iowa in my hometown of Edgewood (not far from Manchester), I vividly remember the "bad old days" of the early 80's when the ICG was being bled to death by parent IC Industries and watched with horror as things slowly went to hell in a handbasket on the ICG's Iowa Division with business being run off and morale practically non-existent.  It was indeed a breath of fresh air when Jack Haley injected life into the Iowa Division with his purchase back in late 1985 and I'll always admire him for having a vision to make it a great railroad once again.  It's a shame that things didn't work out for him in the long run.  While I won't delve into EHH (I can't speak on that without controlling my emotions as a CPRS employee), I do give CN a ton of credit for getting the mainline and the secondary lines to both Cedar Rapids and Glenville (MN) back in fine shape.  But again, where's the marketing creativity to go after the untapped markets that are out there; i.e., meat and meat products?  Furthermore, why hasn't CN made an effort to push the Council Bluffs/Omaha gateway with autos and auto parts traffic? 

[Victrola1]

What was the Illinois Central's logic in the 19th Century for pursuing the Iowa lines reaching the Omaha gateway? Did the Illinois Central generate much traffic on its own lines that interchanged there? Did the Illinois Central get much bridge traffic between Chicago and Omaha?

The Union Pacific's primary historic partner between Omaha and Chicago was the Chicago Northwestern. Union Pacific now owns the Chicago Northwestern. What potential is there now for CN at the Omaha gateway?

 

 

[schlimm]

Los Angeles Rams Guy

 

 

greyhounds

It's an interesting story.

The IC had a line from Chicago to Council Bluffs, Iowa.  It branched to Cedar Rapids, Sioux City, and Sioux Falls, SD (long since gone).

Shortly before I left the ICG it was decided that things were basically hopeless.  The ICG could not be operated at a profit given the then present circumstances.  Nor could it be sold.  (The Southern actually made a negative offer.  They'd take the ICG only if they were paid to do so.)

So.  They tried to sell it off piecemeal.  That's how the Indiana Rail Road, the Paducha and Louisville, the short lived Chicago, Missouri and Western, and the Midsouth (now KCS) came about.

One other sale was the Iowa lines.  They became the Chicago Central and Pacific.  The Iowa line had some financial turmoil but was running along when E. Hunter Harrison decided to buy it back.

I was talking to the late Doug Hagestad, who I knew from the ICG, when he said:  "I'll never understand why Hunter bought it back."  (Doug operated at the vice president level, I didn't.)

The IC's Iowa line(s) have been referred to as "The Main Line of Meat".  A play on IC's claim to be the "Main Line of Mid-America".  They hauled a lot of dead cows and hogs.  Meat was a core market for the line.  

To this day, Iowa and neighboring Nebraska are the two leading states supplying our appitite for pork and beef.  And the CN runs a very low volume rail line while refusing to go after the high volume, long haul meat business. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again;  I'd give a week's pay to know why they let this line sit basically empty and don't develop the available business.

 

 

 

 

 

 

All I can say is A-FREAKING-MEN to Greyhounds' post.  This is a subject that has been discussed more than once on this forum and I'm glad that it's come up again. Growing up in NE Iowa in my hometown of Edgewood (not far from Manchester), I vividly remember the "bad old days" of the early 80's when the ICG was being bled to death by parent IC Industries and watched with horror as things slowly went to hell in a handbasket on the ICG's Iowa Division with business being run off and morale practically non-existent.  It was indeed a breath of fresh air when Jack Haley injected life into the Iowa Division with his purchase back in late 1985 and I'll always admire him for having a vision to make it a great railroad once again.  It's a shame that things didn't work out for him in the long run.  While I won't delve into EHH (I can't speak on that without controlling my emotions as a CPRS employee), I do give CN a ton of credit for getting the mainline and the secondary lines to both Cedar Rapids and Glenville (MN) back in fine shape.  But again, where's the marketing creativity to go after the untapped markets that are out there; i.e., meat and meat products?  Furthermore, why hasn't CN made an effort to push the Council Bluffs/Omaha gateway with autos and auto parts traffic? 

 

Perhaps the sad answer is it is easier for the marketing and operations folks to stick with grain and ethanol unit trains, aka the low-hanging fruit.  No imagination, no effort, no gain.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

When you consider the current service levels on the Iowa lines, going after meat traffic from Iowa to points east (presumably for interchange) may not be worth the effort.  Is the volume large enough to justify its own schedule and would the various roads east of Chicago be willing to handle it as a priority schedule?  What kind of service is the competition providing and at what rates?

The traffic source is there but would it be profitable?

[schlimm]

Well, that would be the question.  It used to be the profit center on the Iowa line.  Greyhounds has done some detailed analysis in the past.  But imagination is not a valued skill set with most railroads.

[Murphy Siding]

schlimm

Well, that would be the question.  It used to be the profit center on the Iowa line.  Greyhounds has done some detailed analysis in the past.  But imagination is not a valued skill set with most railroads.

 

   I certainly don't think this is anything unique to the railroad industry.  In my industry- building materials- there is an inordinate amount of emphasis on big numbers and easy targets, less on the details that put money to the bottom line.  It's frustrating.

[beaulieu]

There are six Shuttle Elevators west of Fort Dodge, IA. Alden is just west of Fort Dodge, Alta is on the Souix City line, Knierim and Yetter are on the Omaha line, and Odebolt and Ida Grove are on the Ida Grove Branch off the Omaha line. These Shuttle elevators load Chicken feed destined for Mississippi and Alabama providing a long haul for the IC. Combine that with the Ethanol traffic and that is why the IC reacquired the CC&P. None of that traffic was there when the line was spun off.

[MP173]

Any discussions of Illinois Central are of interest to me and the Iowa line has been intriguing since I began travelling to Dubuque area 25 years ago....particularly when IC purchased the line in the 90s.

Greyhound provided very detailed analysis of the meat market moving by intermodal last year.  I disagree with him on it, but it sure was an educational discussion.  IMHO, for meat to be viable on IC/Iowa, it must move to Chicago for processing and the east coat movements will not work.  West coast would involve extremely short haul for IC to Omaha.

Interesting note from beaulieu regarding the 6 new shuttle elevators.  Those 6 elevators appear to be in an area of about 20 miles x 50 miles....giving a heavy concentration of grain movement.  That certainly can explain why CN is hanging onto the line.

Question....does CN run those grain trains thru Chicago or on the BNSF to Peoria before reaching the "Mainline of Mid-America"?  If each of the shuttles runs 2 loaded trains per month....that is really good volume on that line.

Regarding why CN didnt handle more automotive on the line.  I do not believe there are any auto plants on the line.  Most of the auto routings are controlled by the auto manufacturers and that business is usually consolidated at the IHB yard in Hammond into long distance trains for BNSF or UP.  CN really couldnt handle that and then hand off to either carrier at Omaha.  No advantage to the shipper.

Lets face it....this is an agriculture line with some manufacturing in the mix.  The trump card as I see it is if the BNSF line from East Dubuque to Chicago reach capacity (oil) then this line could be used as trackage or haulage rights.

Ed

[stebbycentral]

Ulrich

How did it come about that CN has track in Iowa? Were these lines part of the Wiscounsin Central or Illinois Central?

 

In the end it makes as much sense as the Canadian Pacific owning the old Milwaukee Road track along the Mississippi river in eastern Iowa.

[kgbw49]

Illinois Central was the original owner of the line, and spun it off to CC&P.

From what I have read, due to the undulating profile and the climb out of the Mississippi and Missouri river valleys, it was a stronghold of the IC's 2-10-2 locomotives, including the rebuilt 2-10-2 class in the 1950s.

[schlimm]

MP173

Greyhound provided very detailed analysis of the meat market moving by intermodal last year.  I disagree with him on it, but it sure was an educational discussion.  IMHO, for meat to be viable on IC/Iowa, it must move to Chicago for processing and the east coat movements will not work.

Greyhounds could say more, but at least some of the time when the IC ran numerous meat packer reefers to Chicago (Morrell and others) it was dressed meat, as the Chicago Union Stock Yards were already in decline in the 1950s.  So why not look into the service again?

[greyhounds]

MP173

IMHO, for meat to be viable on IC/Iowa, it must move to Chicago for processing and the east coat movements will not work.  West coast would involve extremely short haul for IC to Omaha.

I've got to ask;  What processing in Chicago?  Why won't the east coast movements work?  The premium service trains already exist between Chicago and the northeast.  Why can't containers of meat easily be added to these existing trains?

[MarknLisa]

A few times I have seen coal trains with BNSF power on the CN line near Williams IA

[Dakguy201]

The beef processing procedures have changed.  Cattle enter one end of a kill facility; boxes consisting of one primal cut of beef plus boxes of some individual items such as hamburger emerge from the other end.  Thereafter, the boxes may be sorted at some distribution center, but the contents of the box are unchanged.  In most cases that box remain undisturbed until received by the retailer.

Should you want a trailer of loins, rounds or ribs that can be supplied.  In the 1970's (?) the IC had a train of TOFC to move that cargo.  The truckers complained, and the feds shut it down.  Those trailers still move, just not by rail.  Hundreds of trailers leave a day, and that is just out of northwest Iowa.    

[schlimm]

greyhounds

 

 

MP173

IMHO, for meat to be viable on IC/Iowa, it must move to Chicago for processing and the east coat movements will not work.  West coast would involve extremely short haul for IC to Omaha.

 

 

I've got to ask;  What processing in Chicago?  Why won't the east coast movements work?  The premium service trains already exist between Chicago and the northeast.  Why can't containers of meat easily be added to these existing trains?

 

He obviously didn't realize the stock yards closed in the early 70s.  Oscar Meyer closed up its old plant adjoining the Ravenswood L by the early 80s. If processed meat were shipped east in reefer trailers or containers, between Chicago and others heading east, would that not be a lot of business?

[MidlandMike]

Victrola1

What was the Illinois Central's logic in the 19th Century for pursuing the Iowa lines reaching the Omaha gateway? Did the Illinois Central generate much traffic on its own lines that interchanged there? Did the Illinois Central get much bridge traffic between Chicago and Omaha?

The Union Pacific's primary historic partner between Omaha and Chicago was the Chicago Northwestern. Union Pacific now owns the Chicago Northwestern. What potential is there now for CN at the Omaha gateway?

 

 

 

The IC was controlled in the Harriman era by the UP.

[jeffhergert]

Dakguy201

 

Should you want a trailer of loins, rounds or ribs that can be supplied.  In the 1970's (?) the IC had a train of TOFC to move that cargo.  The truckers complained, and the feds shut it down.  Those trailers still move, just not by rail.  Hundreds of trailers leave a day, and that is just out of northwest Iowa.    

 

A few years ago at the monthly Ames Railfan get together, a retired IC dispatcher gave a slide presentation of a trip over the Iowa Division.  He made a couple of familiarization trips and took his camera with him.  He talked, and had a picture of, the IBP plant at Denison, Iowa where they loaded TOFC right at the plant.  (The remnants of the ramp are still there.  I never noticed them until I saw his pictures and I go right by there every day at work.  Talk about hiding in plain sight.)  He said that part of the reason IC (or ICG) discontinued some of the TOFC service was that IBP was rejecting many of the trailers offered for loading.

The Denison plant, I think it was IBP's first beef plant, was closed by Tyson within the last year.  They still do some rendering work for other plants, but no more cattle slaughter there.  I see the CN local working the plant from time to time.

Jeff  

[greyhounds]

OK, let me see if this table works.  These are 2014 numbers.  The 2015 data is not yet available.

Truckloads are calculated at 44,000 pounds payload per truck.  Workdays are calculated at six days per week (overtime on Saturday) less six holidays per year.

Please note the very low production figures in New England and the Mid Atlantic.  Also note the very low production in states such as Georgia and Florida.  They have to bring in a lot of red meat.  (since we're dealing with the CN, I don't mention California.  But, it doesn't produce enough red meat by a long shot.)

The table lists red meat production by state.  It is sorted in descending order with the largest producing states at the top.  Iowa is number #2 after Nebraska.  But CN can serve the Nebraska facilitiies from intermodal terminals at Council Bluffs and Sioux City.  CN could also serve Sioux Falls, SD over Sioux City.  Most of the South Dakota production is from a very large Smithfield/Morrell hog plant in Sioux Falls.

Not all this production is available to the CN.  Some is produced too far off line and some is going out west.  But if you look at the numbers, CN would need about 6% of the meat production from Iowa, Nebraska and South Dakota to make a viable six days per week 80 container train in to Chicago.  East and southeast of Chicago the meat could readily move on existing intermodal trains to anywhere east and southeast.

And meat is not the only available traffic. Kelloggs makes cereal in Omaha. Sioux Falls has (or had) a major UPS sort facility, etc.  There are a good number of other such opportunities. This is doable. 

 

Livestock Slaughter 2014 Summary: Released April 27, 2015, by the
Agricultural Statistics Board, United States Department of Agriculture.
Commercial Red Meat Production, Number of Pounds – States and United States: 2014
[Includes total beef, veal, pork, and lamb and mutton. Data may not add to totals due to rounding]
State	2014 Total
	Tons	Trucks per Workday	Percent of US Total	Cumulative Percent of US Total
Nebraska	3,637,200	648	15.37%	15.37%
Iowa	3,298,550	588	13.93%	29.30%
Kansas	2,537,300	452	10.72%	40.02%
Texas	2,090,300	373	8.83%	48.85%
Illinois	1,514,500	270	6.40%	55.25%
Minnesota	1,253,300	223	5.29%	60.54%
North Carolina	1,145,400	204	4.84%	65.38%
Colorado	1,092,150	195	4.61%	69.99%
Missouri	943,350	168	3.99%	73.98%
Indiana	887,650	158	3.75%	77.73%
California	725,000	129	3.06%	80.79%
Pennsylvania	637,700	114	2.69%	83.49%
Wisconsin	581,200	104	2.46%	85.94%
South Dakota	548,200	98	2.32%	88.26%
Oklahoma	526,000	94	2.22%	90.48%
Washington	433,000	77	1.83%	92.31%
Kentucky	256,400	46	1.08%	93.39%
Virginia	239,650	43	1.01%	94.40%
Utah	234,250	42	0.99%	95.39%
Michigan	233,000	42	0.98%	96.38%
Arizona	209,100	37	0.88%	97.26%
Ohio	134,500	24	0.57%	97.83%
South Carolina	122,850	22	0.52%	98.35%
Tennessee	120,100	21	0.51%	98.86%
Georgia	60,050	11	0.25%	99.11%
Florida	47,100	8	0.20%	99.31%
Oregon	38,250	7	0.16%	99.47%
New Jersey	22,600	4	0.10%	99.56%
Idaho	21,750	4	0.09%	99.66%
New York	17,450	3	0.07%	99.73%
Delaware-Maryland	15,550	3	0.07%	99.80%
New England 1/	10,250	2	0.04%	99.84%
Montana	8,300	1	0.04%	99.87%
Alabama	4,600	1	0.02%	99.89%
Hawaii	4,600	1	0.02%	99.91%
North Dakota	3,900	1	0.02%	99.93%
West Virginia	3,350	1	0.01%	99.94%
Mississippi	3,250	1	0.01%	99.96%
Wyoming	2,600	0	0.01%	99.97%
Louisiana	2,550	0	0.01%	99.98%
Arkansas	2,350	0	0.01%	99.99%
New Mexico	1,750	0	0.01%	100.00%
Nevada	550	0	0.00%	100.00%
Alaska	300	0	0.00%	100.00%
United States	23,671,650		100.00%
1/ New England includes Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Vermont.

 

[Murphy Siding]

     greyhounds-  A couple of points:  How would CN service Sioux Falls, if the nearest CN rail is at Siouc City, 80 miles away?  If you load a truck to haul it 80 miles, you might as well haul it 500 miles, like they do now.  Sioux Falls still has the majot UPS sort facility.  It's at the airport and built around those big ol' UPS planes.